Is HBK the only main eventer WWF/E has marketed...

[rnrk supports BLM]

...around his match quality?

I've been thinking about this for a bit. In the grand world of kayfabe, workrate means very little. The greatest wrestler of all time is probably Ultimate Warrior or something, seeing as he could win in minutes and his opponents rarely got any offense in. By these standards, Shawn Michaels really isn't all that significant. He hasn't held a world title in years, loses to other main eventers fairly often, and his wins usually consist of him barely scraping out a victory after a long, back-and-forth struggle.

And yet, he's treated in the storylines as though he's unquestionably on the same level as guys like Cena and Triple H, put over as a legend of the business, and gets called things like "the greatest in-ring performer of all time".

He's Mr. Wrestlemania, a title which makes no sense in kayfabe, where Shawn loses at 'Mania as often as he wins. And yet he's reached the point where simply having a star go up against Michaels at Wrestlemania is a selling point for the PPV. HBK vs. Undertaker barely had any sort of angle behind it, nor did his matches with Jericho or Angle other than to broadly see who was the better wrestler. Flair's about to retire and wants to pit himself against the best in the WWE; it's not either of the world champions, nor their top challengers.

We're all smarks here, to one extent or another. We care about seeing good matches, but the casual fans don't know the difference (at least, not consciously), and WWE typically plays to that base. You won't hear Steamboat/Savage being put over as a better match than Hogan/Andre on TV anytime soon, unless Vince gets particularly pissed off at the Hulkster again.

Somehow, Michaels has transcended all that; WWE expects, and even counts on, the fact that a large portion of their fanbase will stay interested in him and buy tickets because he can put on matches that are THAT DAMN GOOD.

Has anyone else in WWF/E ever achieved that sort of status? I think most of us would agree that Jericho's the other most talented in-ring performer still active in the company (and after over a decade in the main event, he's been around long enough that if he were going to achieve that sort of legendary reputation, I imagine we'd be seeing the groundwork for it by now), and he's never talked about in kayfabe in those sorts of terms. The opportunity to watch Jericho wrestle a long, competitive match is not seen as a selling point in of itself by WWE.

Flair got similar treatment near the end of his career, but by that point it was more to make is seem more significant when he'd lose to rising midcarders (and, to be brutally honest, to try and convince casual viewers that there was a good reason they were watching a flabby old man pushing sixty still wrestling). Guys like Shelton Benjamin sometimes get put over with "the best pure athlete"-like comments, but that more seems like an attempt to find *something* to latch onto with a floundering midcarder to make him seem appealing. I don't think anyone at WWE seriously thinks many viewers are tuning in for the chance to watch Shelton Benjamin wrestle.

Back up the card, there's the spotfests. Guys like Mick Foley and Jeff Hardy get marketed specifically around the in-ring action in their matches, namely the fact that they're willing to take insane bumps. To an extent, you see the same with all the cruiserweight/light-heavyweight/x-division matches in American promotions (and this is probably how Michaels' kayfabe reputation started growing; back in the New Generation, he was pushed as an athletic high-flyer compared to the other main eventers).

And yet... all that is based on spots. Big moments that stand by themselves can be cut together into video packages thereafter. HBK doesn't really do many of those anymore (hell, the biggest spot in Michaels/Undertaker was the deadman's crazy dive); he just puts on good matches. Somehow, for some reason, that's seen as enough to be used as a selling point, both to add to the buyrates and to keep the crowds cheering for the Heartbreak Kid.

Is there anyone else WWE has ever taken to using in this way? It really feels like a unique case.

[hajimenoippo]

Indirectly Bret Hart was booked as being an awesome wrestler capable of doing greatness. As right now guys like Angle, Shelton, Lesnar were sold as being great.

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

Dec 11, 2009 1:32:39 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

...around his match quality?

I've been thinking about this for a bit. In the grand world of kayfabe, workrate means very little. The greatest wrestler of all time is probably Ultimate Warrior or something, seeing as he could win in minutes and his opponents rarely got any offense in. By these standards, Shawn Michaels really isn't all that significant. He hasn't held a world title in years, loses to other main eventers fairly often, and his wins usually consist of him barely scraping out a victory after a long, back-and-forth struggle.

And yet, he's treated in the storylines as though he's unquestionably on the same level as guys like Cena and Triple H, put over as a legend of the business, and gets called things like "the greatest in-ring performer of all time".

He's Mr. Wrestlemania, a title which makes no sense in kayfabe, where Shawn loses at 'Mania as often as he wins. And yet he's reached the point where simply having a star go up against Michaels at Wrestlemania is a selling point for the PPV. HBK vs. Undertaker barely had any sort of angle behind it, nor did his matches with Jericho or Angle other than to broadly see who was the better wrestler. Flair's about to retire and wants to pit himself against the best in the WWE; it's not either of the world champions, nor their top challengers.

We're all smarks here, to one extent or another. We care about seeing good matches, but the casual fans don't know the difference (at least, not consciously), and WWE typically plays to that base. You won't hear Steamboat/Savage being put over as a better match than Hogan/Andre on TV anytime soon, unless Vince gets particularly pissed off at the Hulkster again.

Somehow, Michaels has transcended all that; WWE expects, and even counts on, the fact that a large portion of their fanbase will stay interested in him and buy tickets because he can put on matches that are THAT DAMN GOOD.

Has anyone else in WWF/E ever achieved that sort of status? I think most of us would agree that Jericho's the other most talented in-ring performer still active in the company (and after over a decade in the main event, he's been around long enough that if he were going to achieve that sort of legendary reputation, I imagine we'd be seeing the groundwork for it by now), and he's never talked about in kayfabe in those sorts of terms. The opportunity to watch Jericho wrestle a long, competitive match is not seen as a selling point in of itself by WWE.

Flair got similar treatment near the end of his career, but by that point it was more to make is seem more significant when he'd lose to rising midcarders (and, to be brutally honest, to try and convince casual viewers that there was a good reason they were watching a flabby old man pushing sixty still wrestling). Guys like Shelton Benjamin sometimes get put over with "the best pure athlete"-like comments, but that more seems like an attempt to find *something* to latch onto with a floundering midcarder to make him seem appealing. I don't think anyone at WWE seriously thinks many viewers are tuning in for the chance to watch Shelton Benjamin wrestle.

Back up the card, there's the spotfests. Guys like Mick Foley and Jeff Hardy get marketed specifically around the in-ring action in their matches, namely the fact that they're willing to take insane bumps. To an extent, you see the same with all the cruiserweight/light-heavyweight/x-division matches in American promotions (and this is probably how Michaels' kayfabe reputation started growing; back in the New Generation, he was pushed as an athletic high-flyer compared to the other main eventers).

And yet... all that is based on spots. Big moments that stand by themselves can be cut together into video packages thereafter. HBK doesn't really do many of those anymore (hell, the biggest spot in Michaels/Undertaker was the deadman's crazy dive); he just puts on good matches. Somehow, for some reason, that's seen as enough to be used as a selling point, both to add to the buyrates and to keep the crowds cheering for the Heartbreak Kid.

Is there anyone else WWE has ever taken to using in this way? It really feels like a unique case.

The whole Mr. Wrestlemania wasn't about wins and losses. It was about proformces. HBK more then anybody as had more good matches at WM. That what it really basiced off. All his Mania matches starting from WM Ten mostly have been good. Take a look at them.

WM X: The ladder match against Razor. The first time the Ladder match was ever done at WM. HBK did some at the time impressive stuff with the ladder. It was one of the matches people remember from this event.

WMXI: Against Diesel. Now say what you want about this event and the whole Diesel run as champ. HBK was one of few guys that Diesel had to work with that well can work. HBK busted his ass during this match making Diesel look good.

WM XII: Against Bret: A lot of people call this match great. Other call it boring. But it is the match people remember from the event. HBK and Hart traded a lot of holds in it. One Hour long match showed both men ablity to go on and on. The last I say 15 min when they started to go full force. HBK was flying again. Hart was doing great too.

WM XIIII: Against Austin, a guy with a broken Back. Had a good match with Austin. Everyone remembers The Austin era begining and Tyson KO punch after the match. HBK deserves the credit for doing that good of a match with a back in such horrible shape.

WM XVIIII: Against Jericho it was an aweseom match again. One of the three matches talked about from the event.

WM XX: The three way that a lot of people called it one of the best Triple Threat matches ever. All three guys in it deserves a lot of credit.

WM: XXI: Against Angle, again another awesome match. Angle won but it was still a great proformce.

WMXXII: Against Vince, It was a fun brawl and everyone sees the ladder spot in the highlights. Some out it guy PWI MOTY but it was more HBK getting revenge.

WMXXIII: Against Cena, HBK did awesome against Cena. Everyone at the time was really against Cena. Cena won but HBK made Cena look great.

WM XXIIII: Against Flair, we all know that it was a great match.

WM XV: Against Taker, Everyone still loving this match. It was awesome.

So yeah HBK was invold in a lot of awesome matches and win or loss you know HBK was busting his ass out there to make it that much better.

[Sparvid]

Dec 11, 2009 9:39:07 GMT -5 Can you afford to pay me, Gah said:

WMXXII: Against Vince, It was a fun brawl and everyone sees the ladder spot in the highlights. Some out it guy PWI MOTY but it was more HBK getting revenge.

IIRC, in his pre-match promo, he pointed out how there wasn't going to be a "five star classic" match, because he was simply going out there to destroy Vince.

[bjork]

WWE, no, I don't believe so.

But WWF days they used to do this with Bret, and commentators actually discussed stuff like arm reach and how this moves does this type of damage, etc. I remember around KotR 94, the big deal was "can Bret put the sharpshooter on Diesel's long legs?"

[bob]

Angle and Bret too if I remember right

[Tapout]

Bret's "excellence of execution" moniker was all about his workrate.

Angle was put over frequently for being the only gold medalist in the company, and one of his new nicknames in the latter part of his career, given to him by "Vintage" Michael Cole, was the "wrestling machine."

Shelton's informal nickname, given to him by JR and still used by Matthews, is "the best pure athelete in the WWE."

Also, back in the late 90s/early 00's, JR would fall all over himself verbally to put over HHH in the ring, making comparisons to Harley Race and other great workers of yesteryear.

There was also Benoit referring to himself as the best technical wrestler, but that wasn't really a line the company did much with.

[mauled]

Dec 11, 2009 9:39:07 GMT -5 Can you afford to pay me, Gah said:

Dec 11, 2009 1:32:39 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

...around his match quality?

I've been thinking about this for a bit. In the grand world of kayfabe, workrate means very little. The greatest wrestler of all time is probably Ultimate Warrior or something, seeing as he could win in minutes and his opponents rarely got any offense in. By these standards, Shawn Michaels really isn't all that significant. He hasn't held a world title in years, loses to other main eventers fairly often, and his wins usually consist of him barely scraping out a victory after a long, back-and-forth struggle.

And yet, he's treated in the storylines as though he's unquestionably on the same level as guys like Cena and Triple H, put over as a legend of the business, and gets called things like "the greatest in-ring performer of all time".

He's Mr. Wrestlemania, a title which makes no sense in kayfabe, where Shawn loses at 'Mania as often as he wins. And yet he's reached the point where simply having a star go up against Michaels at Wrestlemania is a selling point for the PPV. HBK vs. Undertaker barely had any sort of angle behind it, nor did his matches with Jericho or Angle other than to broadly see who was the better wrestler. Flair's about to retire and wants to pit himself against the best in the WWE; it's not either of the world champions, nor their top challengers.

We're all smarks here, to one extent or another. We care about seeing good matches, but the casual fans don't know the difference (at least, not consciously), and WWE typically plays to that base. You won't hear Steamboat/Savage being put over as a better match than Hogan/Andre on TV anytime soon, unless Vince gets particularly pissed off at the Hulkster again.

Somehow, Michaels has transcended all that; WWE expects, and even counts on, the fact that a large portion of their fanbase will stay interested in him and buy tickets because he can put on matches that are THAT DAMN GOOD.

Has anyone else in WWF/E ever achieved that sort of status? I think most of us would agree that Jericho's the other most talented in-ring performer still active in the company (and after over a decade in the main event, he's been around long enough that if he were going to achieve that sort of legendary reputation, I imagine we'd be seeing the groundwork for it by now), and he's never talked about in kayfabe in those sorts of terms. The opportunity to watch Jericho wrestle a long, competitive match is not seen as a selling point in of itself by WWE.

Flair got similar treatment near the end of his career, but by that point it was more to make is seem more significant when he'd lose to rising midcarders (and, to be brutally honest, to try and convince casual viewers that there was a good reason they were watching a flabby old man pushing sixty still wrestling). Guys like Shelton Benjamin sometimes get put over with "the best pure athlete"-like comments, but that more seems like an attempt to find *something* to latch onto with a floundering midcarder to make him seem appealing. I don't think anyone at WWE seriously thinks many viewers are tuning in for the chance to watch Shelton Benjamin wrestle.

Back up the card, there's the spotfests. Guys like Mick Foley and Jeff Hardy get marketed specifically around the in-ring action in their matches, namely the fact that they're willing to take insane bumps. To an extent, you see the same with all the cruiserweight/light-heavyweight/x-division matches in American promotions (and this is probably how Michaels' kayfabe reputation started growing; back in the New Generation, he was pushed as an athletic high-flyer compared to the other main eventers).

And yet... all that is based on spots. Big moments that stand by themselves can be cut together into video packages thereafter. HBK doesn't really do many of those anymore (hell, the biggest spot in Michaels/Undertaker was the deadman's crazy dive); he just puts on good matches. Somehow, for some reason, that's seen as enough to be used as a selling point, both to add to the buyrates and to keep the crowds cheering for the Heartbreak Kid.

Is there anyone else WWE has ever taken to using in this way? It really feels like a unique case.

The whole Mr. Wrestlemania wasn't about wins and losses. It was about proformces. HBK more then anybody as had more good matches at WM. That what it really basiced off. All his Mania matches starting from WM Ten mostly have been good. Take a look at them.

WM X: The ladder match against Razor. The first time the Ladder match was ever done at WM. HBK did some at the time impressive stuff with the ladder. It was one of the matches people remember from this event.

WMXI: Against Diesel. Now say what you want about this event and the whole Diesel run as champ. HBK was one of few guys that Diesel had to work with that well can work. HBK busted his ass during this match making Diesel look good.

WM XII: Against Bret: A lot of people call this match great. Other call it boring. But it is the match people remember from the event. HBK and Hart traded a lot of holds in it. One Hour long match showed both men ablity to go on and on. The last I say 15 min when they started to go full force. HBK was flying again. Hart was doing great too.

WM XIIII: Against Austin, a guy with a broken Back. Had a good match with Austin. Everyone remembers The Austin era begining and Tyson KO punch after the match. HBK deserves the credit for doing that good of a match with a back in such horrible shape.

WM XVIIII: Against Jericho it was an aweseom match again. One of the three matches talked about from the event.

WM XX: The three way that a lot of people called it one of the best Triple Threat matches ever. All three guys in it deserves a lot of credit.

WM: XXI: Against Angle, again another awesome match. Angle won but it was still a great proformce.

WMXXII: Against Vince, It was a fun brawl and everyone sees the ladder spot in the highlights. Some out it guy PWI MOTY but it was more HBK getting revenge.

WMXXIII: Against Cena, HBK did awesome against Cena. Everyone at the time was really against Cena. Cena won but HBK made Cena look great.

WM XXIIII: Against Flair, we all know that it was a great match.

WM XV: Against Taker, Everyone still loving this match. It was awesome.

So yeah HBK was invold in a lot of awesome matches and win or loss you know HBK was busting his ass out there to make it that much better.

Interesting argument cause is he Mr Wrestlemania though cause for me its gotta be Savage

WM2 Put over the Animal Steele and gives him the best match of his career

wm3 Well Duh and even on DVDs people mention this matche's greatness and this Savage the man Vince hates.

WM4 Savage again was the HIghlight of a terrible PPV.

WM5 Savage again giving Hogan one of his best matches though Perfect and Owen come a close second

With 6 Although people talk about Hogan working with Warrior or maybe Savage working with Dusty and Sapphire and carrying those two deserves some recognition.

7 Savage again no question gave the Warrior the match of his life.

wm8 Loses out to Bret but 2nd behind him for that one.

9 Bret carrying Yoko although Shawn did a good match with Tatanka though

10 Yep it is Shawn no arguments here

11Shawn again though it seemed less like putting Diesel over and more himself

12 He and Bret equally here

13 Bret again with the submission match though he and Shawn and there Verbal helped make Sid/Taker berable

14 I disagree here for me it was Owen and his match with Trips. Even Austin has said the match he had with Shawn was bad.

19 Arguble for me its the Rock who carried a hospitalised Austin through there match and still made it epic

20 No arguments here about this

21 Ditto though Angle does not get nearly enough credit as he should

22 Edge and Foley for this one

23 Yep he gave Cena a fantastic match but didnt Taker win match of the year working with BIg Dave of all people.

24 Overrated with Flair and you can see spots clearly bothced (by Flair not Shawn) in JMO For me its Taker and Edge now that was wrestling.

25) No arguments here

[Bub (BLM)]

That's pretty much all they used to market Chris Benoit as World Champion.

[AriadosMan]

No, Benoit also qualifies.

[corndog]

Dec 11, 2009 1:32:39 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

.
We're all smarks here, to one extent or another. We care about seeing good matches, but the casual fans don't know the difference (at least, not consciously), and WWE typically plays to that base. You won't hear Steamboat/Savage being put over as a better match than Hogan/Andre on TV anytime soon, unless Vince gets particularly pissed off at the Hulkster again.

The WWE still refers to Steamboat and Savage as one of the greatest matches of all time. While Hogan/Andre is one of the biggest matches of all time. They probably won't say that Steamboat/Savage is a better match, mainly because Hogan/Andre was such a huge match, but they wouldn't do the same the other way either. Heck would the WWE even say the Undertaker/Micheals was a better match than the WM26 main event HHH/Orton? They don't want to discredit the main event.

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

Dec 11, 2009 14:13:30 GMT -5 mauled said:

Dec 11, 2009 9:39:07 GMT -5 Can you afford to pay me, Gah said:

The whole Mr. Wrestlemania wasn't about wins and losses. It was about proformces. HBK more then anybody as had more good matches at WM. That what it really basiced off. All his Mania matches starting from WM Ten mostly have been good. Take a look at them.

WM X: The ladder match against Razor. The first time the Ladder match was ever done at WM. HBK did some at the time impressive stuff with the ladder. It was one of the matches people remember from this event.

WMXI: Against Diesel. Now say what you want about this event and the whole Diesel run as champ. HBK was one of few guys that Diesel had to work with that well can work. HBK busted his ass during this match making Diesel look good.

WM XII: Against Bret: A lot of people call this match great. Other call it boring. But it is the match people remember from the event. HBK and Hart traded a lot of holds in it. One Hour long match showed both men ablity to go on and on. The last I say 15 min when they started to go full force. HBK was flying again. Hart was doing great too.

WM XIIII: Against Austin, a guy with a broken Back. Had a good match with Austin. Everyone remembers The Austin era begining and Tyson KO punch after the match. HBK deserves the credit for doing that good of a match with a back in such horrible shape.

WM XVIIII: Against Jericho it was an aweseom match again. One of the three matches talked about from the event.

WM XX: The three way that a lot of people called it one of the best Triple Threat matches ever. All three guys in it deserves a lot of credit.

WM: XXI: Against Angle, again another awesome match. Angle won but it was still a great proformce.

WMXXII: Against Vince, It was a fun brawl and everyone sees the ladder spot in the highlights. Some out it guy PWI MOTY but it was more HBK getting revenge.

WMXXIII: Against Cena, HBK did awesome against Cena. Everyone at the time was really against Cena. Cena won but HBK made Cena look great.

WM XXIIII: Against Flair, we all know that it was a great match.

WM XV: Against Taker, Everyone still loving this match. It was awesome.

So yeah HBK was invold in a lot of awesome matches and win or loss you know HBK was busting his ass out there to make it that much better.

Interesting argument cause is he Mr Wrestlemania though cause for me its gotta be Savage

WM2 Put over the Animal Steele and gives him the best match of his career

wm3 Well Duh and even on DVDs people mention this matche's greatness and this Savage the man Vince hates.

WM4 Savage again was the HIghlight of a terrible PPV.

WM5 Savage again giving Hogan one of his best matches though Perfect and Owen come a close second

With 6 Although people talk about Hogan working with Warrior or maybe Savage working with Dusty and Sapphire and carrying those two deserves some recognition.

7 Savage again no question gave the Warrior the match of his life.

wm8 Loses out to Bret but 2nd behind him for that one.

9 Bret carrying Yoko although Shawn did a good match with Tatanka though

10 Yep it is Shawn no arguments here

11Shawn again though it seemed less like putting Diesel over and more himself

12 He and Bret equally here

13 Bret again with the submission match though he and Shawn and there Verbal helped make Sid/Taker berable

14 I disagree here for me it was Owen and his match with Trips. Even Austin has said the match he had with Shawn was bad.

19 Arguble for me its the Rock who carried a hospitalised Austin through there match and still made it epic

20 No arguments here about this

21 Ditto though Angle does not get nearly enough credit as he should

22 Edge and Foley for this one

23 Yep he gave Cena a fantastic match but didnt Taker win match of the year working with BIg Dave of all people.

24 Overrated with Flair and you can see spots clearly bothced (by Flair not Shawn) in JMO For me its Taker and Edge now that was wrestling.

25) No arguments here

The thing is that WM 19 is really a hard one to pick from. HBK vs. Jericho was a great match. The Rock I agree about too. But the same can go with Angle and Lensar who had a good match dispite Angle's neck being is a very dangerious situation.

I went though every WM that he was futured from Ten to present. Of course Hart and Austin for that matter is going to get 13 but HBK didn't wrestle so I left it out. His match with Flair was good but yes Flair did mess up. Batista and Taker may have one match of the year but I take anything from PWI lately with a grain of salt because look at 06. You can't really believe HBK and Vince was MOTY over all. HBK did well in that match and I credit him for it. But out of that whole year it wasn't the best.