Square
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Square-Because he looks good at all the right angles.
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Post by Square on May 18, 2010 17:59:48 GMT -5
Or that he could do what Batista, Hogan and so many others in the past have done and revitalize themselves with a change which allows for new talent to take the top face spot Not even remotely the same circumstances. Batista has never been the top face, and was easy to turn heel. I would bet when he was a face he didn't move a 10th of the merch. Cena does. And Hogan was exactly the same for what? 13 years? He switched companies and was well into his 40's when he finally turned heel. Not to mention I highly doubt there is anything as big as the NWO around the corner for John, so i highly doubt it would be the same monumental career move for Cena that it was for Hogan. Batista was THE face on Smackdown for a good few years, and had a lot more fans than the IWC gives him credit for. Also he was the 4th biggest merch seller behind Cena, DX and Taker. Also if they were to turn Cena heel I seriously would doubt that they would not have something big planned for him to do which could be on the same scale as the nWo. Also with Cena out of the way Orton would be free to rocket into the stratosphere and become the big face he is ready to be.
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Yami Daimao
Patti Mayonnaise
Really, really wants to zigazig ah!
Posts: 31,784
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Post by Yami Daimao on May 18, 2010 18:00:04 GMT -5
And let's all clear this up right now; if they WERE to turn Cena heel, people would still find something to complain about it, regardless how much most of the non-casual fans are basically DYING for it to happen.
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NIXON
Unicron
Hail to the Chief Bootknocker
Posts: 3,354
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Post by NIXON on May 18, 2010 18:07:01 GMT -5
Not even remotely the same circumstances. Batista has never been the top face, and was easy to turn heel. I would bet when he was a face he didn't move a 10th of the merch. Cena does. And Hogan was exactly the same for what? 13 years? He switched companies and was well into his 40's when he finally turned heel. Not to mention I highly doubt there is anything as big as the NWO around the corner for John, so i highly doubt it would be the same monumental career move for Cena that it was for Hogan. Batista was THE face on Smackdown for a good few years, and had a lot more fans than the IWC gives him credit for. Also he was the 4th biggest merch seller behind Cena, DX and Taker. Also if they were to turn Cena heel I seriously would doubt that they would not have something big planned for him to do which could be on the same scale as the nWo. Also with Cena out of the way Orton would be free to rocket into the stratosphere and become the big face he is ready to be. You are telling me Batista sold more than Rey? I would love to see these stats. What merchandise does the guy even have? Please produce these stats you have. I'm not saying you are wrong, but that sounds ludicrous to me, and I would like to see a source. And you really believe there is something as big as the NWO just sitting in the back pocket of WWE writers and they just haven't brought it out? Why, cause they hate money and love 3.0 ratings? What could there possibly be that would be as big as the NWO was? Yes I am sure they have something that huge just waiting on the back burner and Cena turning heel will be the re birth of wrestling and bring back 6.0 ratings... As for Orton, he's fine for adults, but I can't see him ever being as popular with the kiddies as Cena. He's not the right type IMO.
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Square
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Official Ambassador
Grand Poobah of Scavenger Hunts 2011
Square-Because he looks good at all the right angles.
Posts: 18,701
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Post by Square on May 18, 2010 18:28:20 GMT -5
Batista was THE face on Smackdown for a good few years, and had a lot more fans than the IWC gives him credit for. Also he was the 4th biggest merch seller behind Cena, DX and Taker. Also if they were to turn Cena heel I seriously would doubt that they would not have something big planned for him to do which could be on the same scale as the nWo. Also with Cena out of the way Orton would be free to rocket into the stratosphere and become the big face he is ready to be. You are telling me Batista sold more than Rey? I would love to see these stats. What merchandise does the guy even have? Please produce these stats you have. I'm not saying you are wrong, but that sounds ludicrous to me, and I would like to see a source. And you really believe there is something as big as the NWO just sitting in the back pocket of WWE writers and they just haven't brought it out? Why, cause they hate money and love 3.0 ratings? What could there possibly be that would be as big as the NWO was? Yes I am sure they have something that huge just waiting on the back burner and Cena turning heel will be the re birth of wrestling and bring back 6.0 ratings... As for Orton, he's fine for adults, but I can't see him ever being as popular with the kiddies as Cena. He's not the right type IMO. I remember reading the Batista thing from Wrestleview and I was shocked by it, however it was around the time he was selling his book so that would have helped considerbly. Also, those 6.0 ratings will NEVER RETURN due to stuff like Sky Plus and Tivo or whatever you guys have, people would rather watch TV at there own pace and not be dictated, so the days of wrestling drawing high live is over. However, Cena has the mic skills to make the fans absolutely hate him and from there something better than the nWo can occur, because from someone who wasn't around for the MNW the real big thing that drew people in was Goldberg but what they had with him was lightining in a bottle. Compared to the nWo which was just make everyone on the roster look weaker than 3 men.
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Post by flatsdomino on May 18, 2010 18:48:07 GMT -5
Cena's been on top for the last 5 years (starting at WM 21) and has NEVER had full crowd support. Furthermore he's been 'stale' about 90% of that time, until someone comes along for an interesting feud WITH HIM (Edge, Batista) Yeah, he sells merchandise, but a lot LESS merchandise than another, more supported top face could.
In other words, he's a failure.
Sure, he makes money - but numbers have gone down with him as champ, so it's like they're settling for whatever revenue Cena can bring in. That's like Diesel flopping as champ, and numbers across the board going down as they were during that time, but there's no WCW so WWF can say, "Well, he sells more T-Shirts than anyone else..." so they KEEP him there for 5+ years, passing over Shawn, Bret and Austin's potential pushes because Diesel was "their guy". It's really baffling. Equally baffling is the argument that a Cena heel turn would kill business - kids won't stop watching altogether, they'll be angry at Cena (as you should be at a heel) and want Orton or someone to kick his ass. Plus, it'll only draw new fans in. A Cena heel turn, done right, means people will at least be interested, and if they play it right to hook in all the viewers they've lost over the years. If the ratings are slipping and buyrates are down, gimmick PPV's aren't the answer - a whole new direction is.
People (including me) sometimes question weather TNA WANTS to fail. It vertainly appears that way with some of the desicions they make. However, the less-often asked question is "Does WWE NOT want to excell?" It's like they have NO desire for a boom period. The "It's not meant to appeal to you, it's for the kids" argument is another baffling one to me. When did WWE become a niche thing? Remeber in the 90's when it appealed to EVERYONE? Why is the downsizing acceptable? Why is that sensible?
John Cena represents complacency to me. They're not even trying anymore. If they were, he'd have turned heel long ago.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on May 18, 2010 19:09:09 GMT -5
Cena's been on top for the last 5 years (starting at WM 21) and has NEVER had full crowd support. Furthermore he's been 'stale' about 90% of that time, until someone comes along for an interesting feud WITH HIM (Edge, Batista) Yeah, he sells merchandise, but a lot LESS merchandise than another, more supported top face could. In other words, he's a failure. Sure, he makes money - but numbers have gone down with him as champ, so it's like they're settling for whatever revenue Cena can bring in. That's like Diesel flopping as champ, and numbers across the board going down as they were during that time, but there's no WCW so WWF can say, "Well, he sells more T-Shirts than anyone else..." so they KEEP him there for 5+ years, passing over Shawn, Bret and Austin's potential pushes because Diesel was "their guy". It's really baffling. Equally baffling is the argument that a Cena heel turn would kill business - kids won't stop watching altogether, they'll be angry at Cena (as you should be at a heel) and want Orton or someone to kick his ass. Plus, it'll only draw new fans in. A Cena heel turn, done right, means people will at least be interested, and if they play it right to hook in all the viewers they've lost over the years. If the ratings are slipping and buyrates are down, gimmick PPV's aren't the answer - a whole new direction is. People (including me) sometimes question weather TNA WANTS to fail. It vertainly appears that way with some of the desicions they make. However, the less-often asked question is "Does WWE NOT want to excell?" It's like they have NO desire for a boom period. The "It's not meant to appeal to you, it's for the kids" argument is another baffling one to me. When did WWE become a niche thing? Remeber in the 90's when it appealed to EVERYONE? Why is the downsizing acceptable? Why is that sensible? John Cena represents complacency to me. They're not even trying anymore. If they were, he'd have turned heel long ago. why would the kids suddenly like Orton? There's nobody in the WWE who's kid friendly enough for the fans to get behind if Cena turns heel. I think kids would tune out. In the 90's the WWE was not kid friendly so it did not appeal to everyone. If anything I'd suggest that what they want to do now is the classic hook em young plot. Because the attitude era fans were quite happy to walk out. there's no way to tell that numbers would go up without Cena. He's been injured and off TV and he's only been on one show at a time. No one else has skyrocketed to the top in his absence. The only guy to get over more than Cena is a druggie nut who cna't be relied on.
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Post by flatsdomino on May 18, 2010 19:14:43 GMT -5
Cena's been on top for the last 5 years (starting at WM 21) and has NEVER had full crowd support. Furthermore he's been 'stale' about 90% of that time, until someone comes along for an interesting feud WITH HIM (Edge, Batista) Yeah, he sells merchandise, but a lot LESS merchandise than another, more supported top face could. In other words, he's a failure. Sure, he makes money - but numbers have gone down with him as champ, so it's like they're settling for whatever revenue Cena can bring in. That's like Diesel flopping as champ, and numbers across the board going down as they were during that time, but there's no WCW so WWF can say, "Well, he sells more T-Shirts than anyone else..." so they KEEP him there for 5+ years, passing over Shawn, Bret and Austin's potential pushes because Diesel was "their guy". It's really baffling. Equally baffling is the argument that a Cena heel turn would kill business - kids won't stop watching altogether, they'll be angry at Cena (as you should be at a heel) and want Orton or someone to kick his ass. Plus, it'll only draw new fans in. A Cena heel turn, done right, means people will at least be interested, and if they play it right to hook in all the viewers they've lost over the years. If the ratings are slipping and buyrates are down, gimmick PPV's aren't the answer - a whole new direction is. People (including me) sometimes question weather TNA WANTS to fail. It vertainly appears that way with some of the desicions they make. However, the less-often asked question is "Does WWE NOT want to excell?" It's like they have NO desire for a boom period. The "It's not meant to appeal to you, it's for the kids" argument is another baffling one to me. When did WWE become a niche thing? Remeber in the 90's when it appealed to EVERYONE? Why is the downsizing acceptable? Why is that sensible? John Cena represents complacency to me. They're not even trying anymore. If they were, he'd have turned heel long ago. why would the kids suddenly like Orton? There's nobody in the WWE who's kid friendly enough for the fans to get behind if Cena turns heel. I think kids would tune out. In the 90's the WWE was not kid friendly so it did not appeal to everyone. If anything I'd suggest that what they want to do now is the classic hook em young plot. Because the attitude era fans were quite happy to walk out. Why wouldn't kids like Orton? Have you heard the pops he's gotten lately? They easily surpass Cena's on most nights. I agree that there's really no "Top Guy" to take his place as the face of the company...but I think WWE needs to rethink their way of picking and pushing "Top Guys" anyway. As it is, Cena's not turning heel for a few years - If wrestling moves in cycles, then they won't turn him until his current fans are older and disinterested with him. But why even do that? Why not shake things up NOW? Complacency. the same reason there isn't a worthy successor to cena right now - because they haven't uilt one up.
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lunataxc
Mephisto
Hot and Cold
Posts: 714
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Post by lunataxc on May 18, 2010 19:25:07 GMT -5
Why wouldn't kids like Orton? Have you heard the pops he's gotten lately? Have you heard the guys promos when he's a face? At least this time WWE has been smartened and kept Orton from talking. How long can WWE keep doing that is my question. Typical IWC thinking. Silly rabbit Pops don't make you over. Selling merchandise and seats does.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on May 18, 2010 19:29:22 GMT -5
Why wouldn't kids like Orton? Have you heard the pops he's gotten lately? Have you heard the guys promos when he's a face? At least this time WWE has been smartened and kept Orton from talking. Typical IWC thinking. Silly rabbit Pops don't make you over. Selling merchandise and seats does. Plus if Cena can't unite fans why would Orton. Why wouldn't Orton end up getting cheered b guys(and some women) and booed by kids and the other women.
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barley96
Dennis Stamp
This is the biggest Mickie James mark
Posts: 4,170
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Post by barley96 on May 18, 2010 19:34:49 GMT -5
Let's just turn John Cena heel so we can stop having these threads. Seriously, I don't see any reason for a John Cena heel turn. The only places where he is boo'd at are smarky places like Canada, New York City, Chicago, and Philadelphia. Wherever there are thousands of marky kids, John Cena will remain a popular face.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on May 18, 2010 19:36:08 GMT -5
They don't need to turn him heel, but a tweak to not make him so goody-two shoes and lame would help.
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Post by flatsdomino on May 18, 2010 19:38:03 GMT -5
Why wouldn't kids like Orton? Have you heard the pops he's gotten lately? Have you heard the guys promos when he's a face? At least this time WWE has been smartened and kept Orton from talking. How long can WWE keep doing that is my question. Typical IWC thinking. Silly rabbit Pops don't make you over. Selling merchandise and seats does. Alright, but you're missing the point. It wasn't an "Orton should be the top guy" thing I said in the begining, it was a "Cena is a crappy top guy." I said "kids won't stop watching altogether, they'll be angry at Cena (as you should be at a heel) and want Orton or someone to kick his ass," point being a Heel John Cena would be the perfect foil for ANY main event face the fans want to get behind, and that guy would be the new hero to kids, whoever he was. I couldn't think of a better rub, or a passing of the torch to the new top guy. THAT would be a moneymaker, not Cena v. His Greatest Challenge #78765
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 19:49:07 GMT -5
Cena will turn heel when his merch sales significantly decline...i.e probably not for a few years yet.
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allenfan69
Team Rocket
I came to listen to Ken Resnick mumble.
Posts: 890
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Post by allenfan69 on May 18, 2010 19:53:49 GMT -5
Part of Cena's problem is that he has no great heel to play off of, because they booked him to dominate every guy on the roster. Big Dave might have been it, but he's on his way out and has jobbed about every time he's faced Cena in the last few months. You need a great heel to motivate fans to go out and buy tickets and merch to support the hero.
And I've said it before and I'll say it again...I can't stand either Cena or Orton, so I don't care which guy they make THE guy.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on May 18, 2010 19:59:46 GMT -5
Have you heard the guys promos when he's a face? At least this time WWE has been smartened and kept Orton from talking. How long can WWE keep doing that is my question. Typical IWC thinking. Silly rabbit Pops don't make you over. Selling merchandise and seats does. Alright, but you're missing the point. It wasn't an "Orton should be the top guy" thing I said in the begining, it was a "Cena is a crappy top guy." I said "kids won't stop watching altogether, they'll be angry at Cena (as you should be at a heel) and want Orton or someone to kick his ass," point being a Heel John Cena would be the perfect foil for ANY main event face the fans want to get behind, and that guy would be the new hero to kids, whoever he was. I couldn't think of a better rub, or a passing of the torch to the new top guy. THAT would be a moneymaker, not Cena v. His Greatest Challenge #78765 that kind of reverse psychology doesn't always work. Maybe they'd want someone to kick Cena's ass or maybe they'd just decide that if Cena doesn't like them, then they don't like him and they won't watch him anymore. Or maybe they'd think nobody would beat him because he's so tough and they wouldn't want to watch him win anymore. You're trying to analyze and predict a rather emotional and unpredictable portion of society here.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on May 18, 2010 20:09:52 GMT -5
Hey, you guys know what's even staler than John Cena's character? The "TURN HIM HEEL NOW!" threads that pop up every two days.
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Post by flatsdomino on May 18, 2010 20:12:15 GMT -5
Alright, but you're missing the point. It wasn't an "Orton should be the top guy" thing I said in the begining, it was a "Cena is a crappy top guy." I said "kids won't stop watching altogether, they'll be angry at Cena (as you should be at a heel) and want Orton or someone to kick his ass," point being a Heel John Cena would be the perfect foil for ANY main event face the fans want to get behind, and that guy would be the new hero to kids, whoever he was. I couldn't think of a better rub, or a passing of the torch to the new top guy. THAT would be a moneymaker, not Cena v. His Greatest Challenge #78765 that kind of reverse psychology doesn't always work. Maybe they'd want someone to kick Cena's ass or maybe they'd just decide that if Cena doesn't like them, then they don't like him and they won't watch him anymore. Or maybe they'd think nobody would beat him because he's so tough and they wouldn't want to watch him win anymore. You're trying to analyze and predict a rather emotional and unpredictable portion of society here. If Cena had a strong supporting cast loaded with viable threats to his title instead of guys he's already plowed through, kids being upset at John Cena and not wanting to watch him wouldn't be such an issue - they'd find a new favorite out of that cast. But Cena's not only been dismal as the top guy, he's consumed so much time and energy that they haven't been building anyone else up properly, except for Cena himself, who over the last 5 years has recieved probably the most well-constructed 'superman push' ever. Problem is, who's it going to benifit in the end? The numbers are down. There's no one to take the torch from him at the moment. Someone needs to be built up to take his place and he needs to be turned heel before even the kids lose interest, already knowing what they're going to see every time. Trust me, i was a kid. I got bored easily. They say the WWE doesn't take risks because they're the only game in town. to me, that makes no sense. if they're the only game in town, why can't they do whatever they want? I'm of the mind that they won't lose their core audience, that solid 2.5-3.0, no matter what. They'll be with them - So why not take some risks? Because honestly, I'm feeling like a bored ten year old with the way things are right now. But that's just my feeling.
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lunataxc
Mephisto
Hot and Cold
Posts: 714
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Post by lunataxc on May 18, 2010 20:52:12 GMT -5
Have you heard the guys promos when he's a face? At least this time WWE has been smartened and kept Orton from talking. How long can WWE keep doing that is my question. Typical IWC thinking. Silly rabbit Pops don't make you over. Selling merchandise and seats does. Alright, but you're missing the point. It wasn't an "Orton should be the top guy" thing I said in the begining, it was a "Cena is a crappy top guy." I said "kids won't stop watching altogether, they'll be angry at Cena (as you should be at a heel) and want Orton or someone to kick his ass," point being a Heel John Cena would be the perfect foil for ANY main event face the fans want to get behind, and that guy would be the new hero to kids, whoever he was. I couldn't think of a better rub, or a passing of the torch to the new top guy. THAT would be a moneymaker, not Cena v. His Greatest Challenge #78765 Ah you guys make it sound like its that easy. But its not, you just can't replace Cena's drawing power and marketability. Just like that. If the WWE do turn him and the guy who takes his place fails to generate the money that Cena has. Than WWE is officially screwed. This is where your so called plan fails. WWE is not gonna risk millions and millions of dollars. Just to make older fans happy. When there "Main" audience is doing great business for them. Face it Cena will never turn heel. Maybe someday but not right now.
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BarrelO
AC Slater
Grim and frostbitten
Posts: 225
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Post by BarrelO on May 18, 2010 20:52:09 GMT -5
I think it's a pretty safe bet that not a single "TURN CENA HEEL" thread has ever been started by someone who owns WWE stock.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 18, 2010 21:31:44 GMT -5
Hey, you guys know what's even staler than John Cena's character? The "TURN HIM HEEL NOW!" threads that pop up every two days. Some days, there are multiple ones going
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