What holds indy companies back?

[Kris Kobain]

Do you think it's just lack of funds?

I really wonder why a company like PWG isn't at least at the level of ROH. They have many of the same workers and put on similar shows. They have people like Paul London who have been seen on national tv yet they seem stuck.

Is it partly snobery by "fan boys" of the WWE. I see a lot of hate on indy workers for some reason depsite the fact that they are some of the most entertaining workers out there. Both in the ring and out.

I'm not suggesting these companies should be at the level of WWE because that would obviously be ridiculous.

I've just been thinking about how my friend/roomate refused to watch the DGusa ppv even though I was paying for it and how he refused to go to a ROH show.....

["Handsome" Whitey Fats]

Funding, and a lot of indy workers have no idea how to tell a story in the ring

[shadowangel]

There are several reasons i think.
The Indy Federations don't have much money, so they can't advertise as much. Most of them don't have shows on TV. They only sell DVD's. I know a lot of so-called wrestling fans who only watch what's on Free TV and that's WWE. "Buying a DVD? I don't wan't to spend money!"
And most wrestling fans look at them as second-rate. They think that WWE is the Major League, the best that exists and even if they think it sucks, they still watch it because "I always watched WWE" and "What else can i watch?" and Indy wrestling for them mean it must be bad because they only have a couple of hundred or maybe thousand fans around the ring.
Unknown wrestler may be a factor too. There are a lot of WWE Fans who only watch because the Undertaker is still around.

Most german Wrestling fans have no clue about Ring of Honor, Chikara or the japanese federation...hell, most of them don't even know that there are german wrestling companies like wXw or German Stampede.

I showed friends of mine Independent wrestling. We watched mostly Chikara, Ring of Honor and Shimmer and everyone thought those shows were awesome. Even friends who only watched Wrestling as a kid in the early 90's and then stopped thought it was great. Especially Chikara always gets a good reaction, i think because the gimmicks remind them of 90's WWF
(WWF was extremely popular in germany between 1992 and 1996, the time when they had all the silly gimmicks)

Jul 5, 2010 6:17:04 GMT -5 "Handsome" Whitey Fats said:

and a lot of indy workers have no idea how to tell a story in the ring

Well, WWE and TNA also have really bad wrestlers who just don't belong in a wrestling ring.
I don't think that's a problem. How many Wrestlingfans really give a shit about storytelling? Most of them just watch and want to be entertained and maybe see some good wrestling

[Kris Kobain]

Do you think there would be a market in Germany for the companies you mentioned and PWG and others if they were advertised the right way?

[johnnyk9]

It's all about the money

[shadowangel]

Jul 5, 2010 6:51:38 GMT -5 Kris Kobain said:

Do you think there would be a market in Germany for the companies you mentioned and PWG and others if they were advertised the right way?

Chikara certainly could be something, like i said, most wrestling fans remember the WWF Gimmick era and think it was the best era of Wrestling.
The thing is: Most germans don't want to spend money.
WWE PPV's are cheap here (15 or 20€ ~ 18-25 Dollar), especially compared to the United States, but still most people won't even pay that much and rather watch it illegally on some bad quality stream.

So to be succesful, they would need a Show on Free TV and some advertisement. (We don't even have a good wrestling magazine here, we have one and that sucks so bad, it's 85% WWE, 10% TNA and some line about other federations, because the whole staff isn't interested in Indy Wrestling, japanese wrestling...not even german companies)

wXw for example could be bigger with the right advertisement. They generally have great shows (I guess most people know at least the 16 Carat Gold Tournament) and international stars. With a show in Free TV they could be really big. At the moment they only draw between 150 and 500 people. The Broken Rulz X Event on Saturday only drew 296 people, even though there were Bryan Danielson and Doug Williams on the card.

[Azrael from Outerspace]

It's not just because of money, it's also because a lot of these smaller companies won't compromise their companies and honestly i think it's better that way. I love Chikara and PWG because of how uncompromising and niche they are. If you want to go big time you have to go main stream to an extent which means watering down your product or showcasing it like the WWE. Plus times have changed. Back in thee olden days every territory had it's own product which was on TV locally. So no matter where you lived you had wrestling and it was the only wrestling you had. Now compare that with today and global television, high production values and top name draws and these smaller companies don't stand a chance unless they get a backer. Because lets face it, when i watch Chikara i see it for the awesomeness it is, but to a casual fan they'll see 200 people in a legion hall watching guys in silly costumes who they've never heard of.

For the record though, I do think Chikara would actually pull fans on a SyFy or G4 channel because of the niche it's carved out.

[American Dragon]

Well, the first step would be to expand outside of California and Primarily the East Coast. I don't think funds are the reasons why indies can't get bigger. PWG has stayed in Southern California since it's inception, and if I'm not mistaken, PWG has never held a show outside of California, though I could be wrong on that one. Same goes for Chikara but to a lesser degree, they run shows in a few set places on the East Coast, but other than that, they don't seem to move out of their comfort zone.

Which I can understand, it's great for them to stay in their comfort zone and know that all of the hardcore fans are going to constantly come out, but at the same time, they have to take risk to become more recognizable.

[Sajoa Moe]

Moneh.

[Joe Neglia]

Money's definitely a major factor. You have to remember, ROH spent years in the hole dollar-wise when they started out and only kept going because of the money coming in from RF Video. Other indies don't have that side thing to fund their losses.

It's other things too. Not PWG in particular, but too many indies have bad management, poor booking, skittish investors, egotistical ownership and the like. They reach too far or not far enough. ROH succeeded in part because it was something "new." Same reason CHIKARA is keeping its doors open. Same reason ECW stuck around for so long. But 99% of the indies are just trying to copy one or the other of them, or trying to be the next WWE. They aren't finding their own identity to make them stand out.

[lionheart21]

Money + lack of advertising

[DavidArquette]

Jul 5, 2010 7:48:44 GMT -5 American Dragon said:

Well, the first step would be to expand outside of California and Primarily the East Coast. I don't think funds are the reasons why indies can't get bigger. PWG has stayed in Southern California since it's inception, and if I'm not mistaken, PWG has never held a show outside of California, though I could be wrong on that one. Same goes for Chikara but to a lesser degree, they run shows in a few set places on the East Coast, but other than that, they don't seem to move out of their comfort zone.

Which I can understand, it's great for them to stay in their comfort zone and know that all of the hardcore fans are going to constantly come out, but at the same time, they have to take risk to become more recognizable.

That's something ECW did early on. They ran a few shows around their area and when word got around that there was this hot new promotion, they expanded even more. Really, if they wanted to they could've just stayed in the ECW arena.

I think funding is the main reason indy feds are held back but the majority of wrestling fans aren't that interested unless they're on TV. I support the local feds in my area by going to their shows but I find a lot of indy stuff on the internet or whatever pretty boring and unwatchable.

Sometimes it's the production values, sometimes it's the 'technical' spot fests that look good but go nowhere and sometimes it's the pretentious nature of some of the indy feds.

[H-Fist]

Something no one has mentioned yet is the concentration/dilution problem. In a city like Chicago, there are a few dozen promotions that run here (excluding WWE, ROH and TNA). The greater metropolitan area always has multiple shows running each weekend, and so many of them always draw their mid and upper cards from the same pool of talent. Depending on who runs the individual fed, the lower card will be their students/young workers. And then some might bring in a "name" guy or two.

Next weekend, July 7-10, there are 5 feds running in the Chicago area:
AAW runs Saturday in Berwyn (Street Fight: North Star Express vs. MsChif and Krotch; House of Truth vs. Zero Gravity; Tyler Black; Arik Cannon; Colt Cabana; EVOLVE's Louis Lyndon)
CSW runs Friday in River Grove (Hacksaw Duggan and Jimmy Hart appearances; Steve Boz; Jason Hades; Nick Brubaker)
POWW runs Saturday in Elk Grove Village
VWAA runs Saturday in Oak Forest (Willie "Da Bomb" Richardson; Bryce Benjamin; "Mr. M80" Marshe Rockett; "Hot Chocolate" Acid Jaz; JD Hughes [aka Soul Toucha Trauma])
PCW runs Saturday on the far SW side (announced as free & family friendly; no card announced)

On Friday night also, in Des Moines, IA, 3XW's show has Cannon and the NSE, "Rageaholic" Mark Sterling ; and Krotch.
On Friday night also, in Waterloo, IA, Impact Pro is running a "HoF weekend" event. They have training session for wrestlers with Funk and Foley earlier in the day. Then they have a 4pm Q&A. Then the "Fan Fest" starts at 5:30 before a 7pm bell time. Tyler Black has a match, and A Double is also announced.

Now, look at the spread of strong Midwest talent here. Imagine, if you will, that instead of all of these shows, there was one company running two shows, one in Chicago and the other in Cedar Rapids. The talent booked would look like:
Both Nights

• Tyler Black
  
• Arik Cannon
  
• North Star Express
  
• Krotch
  

Friday

• Jason Hades
  
• Nick Brubaker
  
• Terry Funk and Mick Foley
  
• Austin Aries
  
• Mark Sterling
  
• Steve Boz
  
• Hacksaw Duggan
  
• Jimmy Hart
  

Saturday

• The Soul Touchaz (Marshe Rockett, Acid Jaz, Willie "Da Bomb" Richardson)
  
• JD Hughes (or, as Trauma, the 4th Soul Toucha)
  
• Colt Cabana
  
• House of Truth
  
• Louis Lyndon
  
• Bryce Benjamin
  

And if this were one company, you can imagine that some of the one-night talent could be booked for both nights. This fed would then run two other areas the following week - maybe the Quad Cities and Rockford or Janesville. So smaller feds with the other guys would be able to run in SW Chicago and central Iowa for those other weeks.

But because the number of feds is so concentrated, the actual talent that has proven itself is incredibly diluted. With diluted talent, you have lower gates. An ROH GA ticket is $15 when they come to Chicago. Would you rather spend $15 on that ticket plus split the gas money with three people to drive a long way for ROH's level of talent, or would you rather spend $10 without the gas expense on a local and lesser fed? Well, the "superfed" constructed from just this coming weekend's Chicago and Iowa shows could definitely draw people from 25-30 miles away. That could move 300+ $15 tickets ($20 front row), maybe 500 with beer sales and ample parking [drive safe]. A $4500+ gate, plus DVD and concession sales, would more than pay for the building and talent.

No one wants to step on anyone else's toes, and every last worker on the indies suffers because of it. There isn't enough spending money or time for fans to check out everyone. So they sometimes check out no one. If a promoter would go all-out to grow his company, then the indies could thrive. There is a market for indie wrestling. But the problem is that there is massive market inefficiency.

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

It has to do with money. To move up you need to have money to advertise. Keep the top talent as regulars and not have the chance of being stolen when things start to get notice. So yeah money is everything really to make it grow because you gotta invest and take chances.

[strykerdarksilence]

Money, lack of exposure and snobbery both ways. A lot of indy fans can be very offputting to a more casual fan, in the same way a lot of WWE fans will turn their noses up at a show with poor production values.

[triplethreatmark]

Jul 5, 2010 7:48:44 GMT -5 American Dragon said:

Well, the first step would be to expand outside of California and Primarily the East Coast. I don't think funds are the reasons why indies can't get bigger. PWG has stayed in Southern California since it's inception, and if I'm not mistaken, PWG has never held a show outside of California, though I could be wrong on that one. Same goes for Chikara but to a lesser degree, they run shows in a few set places on the East Coast, but other than that, they don't seem to move out of their comfort zone.

Which I can understand, it's great for them to stay in their comfort zone and know that all of the hardcore fans are going to constantly come out, but at the same time, they have to take risk to become more recognizable.

I agree with your post completely, but to clear some stuff up (again, there's no harm meant by this) PWG has in fact held shows outside of California. They held shows in Europe (Germany, England, and France) twice. Although they held these shows all in one year in 2007.

I agree with everybody who posted about money being the reasons why mid-major indies like PWG and Chikara don't expand. I'm pretty sure if PWG had the money ROH gained, they'd be touring all up and down the West Coast maybe even as far as Denver or hell, maybe even Dallas.

[Ultimo Chocula]

Some indies are stuck with what they have, meaning, whatever workers are in the area that they can afford. If you look at some indies there will be a surplus of fat guys in cut off jeans who get blown up after two minutes. It's not that these indies don't care, it's all they can get and if they could get better workers they would do it in a heartbeat.

[Giant Floating Baby Head]

Jul 5, 2010 6:44:34 GMT -5 shadowangel said:

Jul 5, 2010 6:17:04 GMT -5 "Handsome" Whitey Fats said:

and a lot of indy workers have no idea how to tell a story in the ring

Well, WWE and TNA also have really bad wrestlers who just don't belong in a wrestling ring.
I don't think that's a problem. How many Wrestlingfans really give a s*** about storytelling? Most of them just watch and want to be entertained and maybe see some good wrestling

Truly good wrestling IS good storytelling. Guys exchanging moves for 20 minutes with no real reason or motive makes the whole thing pointless. Maybe entertaining but pointless.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Jul 5, 2010 17:04:50 GMT -5 Giant Floating Baby Head said:

Truly good wrestling IS good storytelling. Guys exchanging moves for 20 minutes with no real reason or motive makes the whole thing pointless. Maybe entertaining but pointless.

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, here, but isn't... being entertaining, like... the point? What on earth other point could there be to watching guys pretend to fight?

But, this does get at one answer to the original question: Among many indie wrestlers (restricting ourselves to only talking about the ones who don't suck), there's a DIFFERENT psychology than many WWE fans are used to. Specifically: Moves hurt less, and cooperation between opponents is less hidden, meaning it's often more showmanlike and less gritty fighty.


I'm not super proud of this, but what gets me personally is that... jeez, I don't know of any other way to put this but indie shows and videos are sometimes just DEPRESSING. I see these people out there hurting themselves for tiny crowds in tiny buildings, and it just kind of makes me sad.
Wrestling is hard enough to think about deeply. Seeing some roided-up old guy who sleeps with rats and can barely move and drinks too much and never got a good education and ISN'T EVEN ON TV BECAUSE OF IT can sometimes be too much to take.

[hajimenoippo]

It's not that they are being held back. It is that they are not big because the company's roster aren't full time wrestlers. They are guys who are weekend warriors learning thier craft. The indies are a way to springboard to the big leagues. To make connections and end up in japan, europe, or mexico.

But most guys have a "real job" that they do that makes them more money.

Like Super Dragon...man oh man is that guy fat.