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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Jul 5, 2010 18:47:14 GMT -5
Truly good wrestling IS good storytelling. Guys exchanging moves for 20 minutes with no real reason or motive makes the whole thing pointless. Maybe entertaining but pointless. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, here, but isn't... being entertaining, like... the point? What on earth other point could there be to watching guys pretend to fight? But, this does get at one answer to the original question: Among many indie wrestlers (restricting ourselves to only talking about the ones who don't suck), there's a DIFFERENT psychology than many WWE fans are used to. Specifically: Moves hurt less, and cooperation between opponents is less hidden, meaning it's often more showmanlike and less gritty fighty. I'm not super proud of this, but what gets me personally is that... jeez, I don't know of any other way to put this but indie shows and videos are sometimes just DEPRESSING. I see these people out there hurting themselves for tiny crowds in tiny buildings, and it just kind of makes me sad. Wrestling is hard enough to think about deeply. Seeing some roided-up old guy who sleeps with rats and can barely move and drinks too much and never got a good education and ISN'T EVEN ON TV BECAUSE OF IT can sometimes be too much to take. Yes, being entertaining is the point, but if you were a promoter or a wrestler, wouldn't you want the audience to come back next week? If people went out there and just had matches, great but so what? If they want out there and did something with subtext, then you got something. If scrawny beanpole beats the #1 contender in an upset, that creates drama and if they did it just right, it might create a reason to care about the beanpole and they'll want to see if he can do it again. If two guys have a match that goes to a double DQ and they have to be pulled apart, wouldn't you want to see those guys go at it again? Yes, a lot of this has to do with execution but you get my point. To the second part, yeah, it is depressing but we all gotta start somewhere. If an indie is just starting up they're going to have to do adverstising out the ass just to get thirty people. Thems the breaks I'm afraid.
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ICBM
King Koopa
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Post by ICBM on Jul 5, 2010 19:39:51 GMT -5
Story telling is important and intergral to your product being considered pro wrestling. I don't watch wwe too often so I don't want to say anything about storytelling bell to bell there but I have watched every fall and no contest in TNA the last 7 years and believe me there is logic, psycology and storytelling in almost every match. There is a place for spot fests. they jack the crowd up, to a certain extent they sell some tickets. But spot wrestling is just window dressing for the entire product. Compare the main event programs and upper midcard programs against some(not all) X-div matches. You will see storytelling in the former alor more than the latter. When guys get a push into the mid-card or main event IWC guys turn on them and say they changed. Well yes they did change. They are now the difference between the top of the card and the bottom. Indy shows need spot fests to sell excitement and tickets. I don't fault them for it, it is smart for them to do it. They make whatever little money they can for thier shows and the talent gets to pay thier dues, learn and hopefully get picked up by one of the top tier promotions where they will learn storytelling
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 21:16:06 GMT -5
Something that I didn't see brought up yet in this thread is how closed minded some casual wrestling fans can be to anything that is not WWE. The vast majority of WWE fans don't want to see anything but what in their minds is "the major league," and have no interest in watching any of the "minor league wrestling." They're conditioned to what WWE gives them as being what wrestling is "supposed to be."
Fans with an open mind would check out a Dragon Gate show, a ROH show, or a PWG show if given the opportunity to do so. Those that don't want to watch "minor league wrestling," only care to know what WWE feeds them on television. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what they like.
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Post by romafan87 on Jul 5, 2010 23:04:39 GMT -5
Moneh. We demand your internet moneh!
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 6, 2010 12:21:41 GMT -5
Something that's been brought up in regards to the UK scene is that indy wrestling gives itself a bad reputation. There are a lot of promoters that are marks for the business and don't try to make money, they just think it's cool to put on a wrestling show, so they put no thought into it, anyone they do convince to come sees a lacklustre show and won't be back. Then there's politics. When there's no one place bigger than the others and everyone's competing, they can be very underhanded, sabotage other promoters shows, strong arm wrestlers into pulling out of other shows etc. Then there's a lack of advertising, other than a couple of flyers, who can remember seeing or hearing an ad for wrestling? In Have a Nice Day, Mick Foley talks about going to a drag race to rile up the crowd, cut a promo and drum up interest, I can't remember hearing anything like that happening other times, but things like that would get more people to come.
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Post by Bald Bull on Jul 6, 2010 15:26:57 GMT -5
Honestly if Chikara, PWG and other companies got television or pay per view, they'd have more exposure but a worse product.
The once/twice/trice a month schedule works perfect for them because they can stack cards and still have stuff for the next show. If you give them 52 TV shows a week plus monthly DVD/PPV tapings You have to thin out your shows. I'd rather watch 24 quality shows than 60 crappy shows.
This is why ROH has sucked recently. Its not Pearce's fault. If they had never gotten TV, it'd be exactly like Gabe's product in 2008.
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SAJ Forth
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Post by SAJ Forth on Jul 7, 2010 14:49:20 GMT -5
Money, lack of exposure and snobbery both ways. A lot of indy fans can be very offputting to a more casual fan, in the same way a lot of WWE fans will turn their noses up at a show with poor production values. Best way to explain it.
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Post by Dynamite Kid on Jul 8, 2010 7:15:13 GMT -5
A lack of storytelling and the fact that half of the wrestlers don't even look like wrestlers.
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Post by shadowangel on Jul 8, 2010 7:52:22 GMT -5
A lack of storytelling and the fact that half of the wrestlers don't even look like wrestlers. Really, what's with that look thing? You never hear anyone say "Oh that guy doesn't look like a Football player" or "He looks so skinny, how can he be a hockey player". Only in Wrestling...I mean, compared to Hogan, Warrior or Rick Rude Bret Hart also never looked like a Wrestler, but he was awesome, right? I'd rather watch Chris Hero than Rob Terry, i rather watch Delirious than Batista.
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Post by chunkylover53 on Jul 8, 2010 8:18:23 GMT -5
A lack of storytelling and the fact that half of the wrestlers don't even look like wrestlers. Really, what's with that look thing? You never hear anyone say "Oh that guy doesn't look like a Football player" or "He looks so skinny, how can he be a hockey player". Only in Wrestling...I mean, compared to Hogan, Warrior or Rick Rude Bret Hart also never looked like a Wrestler, but he was awesome, right? I'd rather watch Chris Hero than Rob Terry, i rather watch Delirious than Batista. As wrestling fans, we're use to seeing all types of guys in the ring that the "wrestler look" dosen't occur to us until a subject like that is being brought up. To the non-wrestling fan, if you don't have a roided up body or outlandish look, they would never think of you as a professional wrestler. Anyway, on topic its money and lack of exposure that keeps indy feds as what they are. The booking can also play a part.
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Post by American Dragon on Jul 8, 2010 9:06:35 GMT -5
Well, the first step would be to expand outside of California and Primarily the East Coast. I don't think funds are the reasons why indies can't get bigger. PWG has stayed in Southern California since it's inception, and if I'm not mistaken, PWG has never held a show outside of California, though I could be wrong on that one. Same goes for Chikara but to a lesser degree, they run shows in a few set places on the East Coast, but other than that, they don't seem to move out of their comfort zone. Which I can understand, it's great for them to stay in their comfort zone and know that all of the hardcore fans are going to constantly come out, but at the same time, they have to take risk to become more recognizable. I agree with your post completely, but to clear some stuff up (again, there's no harm meant by this) PWG has in fact held shows outside of California. They held shows in Europe (Germany, England, and France) twice. Although they held these shows all in one year in 2007. I agree with everybody who posted about money being the reasons why mid-major indies like PWG and Chikara don't expand. I'm pretty sure if PWG had the money ROH gained, they'd be touring all up and down the West Coast maybe even as far as Denver or hell, maybe even Dallas. Ah! I do remember them having those shows overseas.
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Post by Dynamite Kid on Jul 8, 2010 11:43:57 GMT -5
A lack of storytelling and the fact that half of the wrestlers don't even look like wrestlers. Really, what's with that look thing? You never hear anyone say "Oh that guy doesn't look like a Football player" or "He looks so skinny, how can he be a hockey player". Only in Wrestling...I mean, compared to Hogan, Warrior or Rick Rude Bret Hart also never looked like a Wrestler, but he was awesome, right? I'd rather watch Chris Hero than Rob Terry, i rather watch Delirious than Batista. Because half of wrestling is suspension of disbelief and 'overness.' If you don't look like a wrestler, why should I belive you can beat the other guy? Why should I support you if I reckon that I could kick your ass because you're skinnier than I am? Wrestlers are meant to be larger than life. I'm not saying there's no room for smaller guys in the sport - look at Evan Bourne or Chris Jericho - but small wrestlers like them, who are only up to say 225, are still twice the width that I am even when I was 180. They look like they could kick the shit out of me. I'm not saying I want guys who are huge, and while Delirious is small, he does still look like a wrestler. Half the guys in, for example, the recent Botchamanias looked skinnier than me, and I'm 6'2" and 160, as I said.
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Post by romafan87 on Jul 8, 2010 12:07:21 GMT -5
Really, what's with that look thing? You never hear anyone say "Oh that guy doesn't look like a Football player" or "He looks so skinny, how can he be a hockey player". Only in Wrestling...I mean, compared to Hogan, Warrior or Rick Rude Bret Hart also never looked like a Wrestler, but he was awesome, right? I'd rather watch Chris Hero than Rob Terry, i rather watch Delirious than Batista. Because half of wrestling is suspension of disbelief and 'overness.' If you don't look like a wrestler, why should I belive you can beat the other guy? Why should I support you if I reckon that I could kick your ass because you're skinnier than I am? Wrestlers are meant to be larger than life. I'm not saying there's no room for smaller guys in the sport - look at Evan Bourne or Chris Jericho - but small wrestlers like them, who are only up to say 225, are still twice the width that I am even when I was 180. They look like they could kick the s*** out of me. I'm not saying I want guys who are huge, and while Delirious is small, he does still look like a wrestler. Half the guys in, for example, the recent Botchamanias looked skinnier than me, and I'm 6'2" and 160, as I said. There really is something to be said about this. Companies like Chikara, PWG, ROH and the bigger indies don't really have this problem, but a lot of the smaller indie feds have guys that either look like they don't know where the weight room is or don't have enough money to buy bread and peanut butter to make a sandwich. If the notion of sport and the idea of kayfabe is to be preserved in the slightest, your wrestlers should look like athletes. A poster above mentioned in other sports that there are guys of all shapes and sizes. Yes, and those shapes and sizes come with advantages. Danny Briere in the NHL is one of smallest players on the ice, but he is also among the fastest, Ryan Howard is a mammoth man at first base for the Phillies, hits for a lot of power but doesn't run that well, small linebackers in the NFL tend to have more interceptions than ones that are larger and tend to rush the quarterback more. The common thread with all of those guys though is that they all look like athletes. Delirious, to me, definitely looks like a pro wrestler, Chris Hero looks like a wrestler. They have muscle tone, do athletic things, and yes, wear wrestling attire and have their own gimmicks. Bret Hart certainly looked like a wrestler: he was 6'1, 230 lbs and built. But it's those guys in the Botchamania videos like the Dixieland Destroyer or some of those tiny guys who look malnourished that ruin it for some of the lower end indies.
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Post by hajimenoippo on Jul 8, 2010 12:16:26 GMT -5
Well, the first step would be to expand outside of California and Primarily the East Coast. I don't think funds are the reasons why indies can't get bigger. PWG has stayed in Southern California since it's inception, and if I'm not mistaken, PWG has never held a show outside of California, though I could be wrong on that one. Same goes for Chikara but to a lesser degree, they run shows in a few set places on the East Coast, but other than that, they don't seem to move out of their comfort zone. Which I can understand, it's great for them to stay in their comfort zone and know that all of the hardcore fans are going to constantly come out, but at the same time, they have to take risk to become more recognizable. they've done 2 tours in europe. Just saying. They were going to do a show with dg but it fell through. The pwg belt was defended on a dragon gate show.
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Doctor Of Style
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Jul 8, 2010 13:10:25 GMT -5
A lack of storytelling and the fact that half of the wrestlers don't even look like wrestlers. Really, what's with that look thing? You never hear anyone say "Oh that guy doesn't look like a Football player" or "He looks so skinny, how can he be a hockey player". Only in Wrestling...I mean, compared to Hogan, Warrior or Rick Rude Bret Hart also never looked like a Wrestler, but he was awesome, right? I'd rather watch Chris Hero than Rob Terry, i rather watch Delirious than Batista. I hear people say things like that about football players all the time, especially college players about to go to the NFL. Half the talk leading up to the NFL draft is questioning whether a skinny receiver can take the pounding he'll get in the NFL, is so-and-so too short to play QB, etc...
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Jul 8, 2010 13:13:19 GMT -5
Even when we had the wrestling channel over here many WWE fans wouldn't watch it. The channel also refused to put chikara on because of the low production values. When ROH/RQW/TNA/NOAH/CZW/Whatever was on my Dad would often be sitting reading his paper, if it was good he'd start to watch properly but if there was a single botch he'd lose interest. If somebody invests (money or time) into an indy company they get a small window to impress, if the show isn't significantly above average then a lot of people aren't going to bother again. They don't have the same goodwill that the larger companies have so have to stay at the top of their game which is near impossible. The Indy Federations don't have much money, so they can't advertise as much. Most of them don't have shows on TV. They only sell DVD's. I know a lot of so-called wrestling fans who only watch what's on Free TV and that's WWE. "Buying a DVD? I don't wan't to spend money!" That the high barrier to entry is the main issue, you get at least 8 hours of "free" TV from WWE and TNA each week. Even with the wrestling channel I often didn't bother watching anything that wasn't TNA or ROH as there was just too much of it. However you then have to pay for an indy DVD with lower production values containing wrestlers you don't know. I also hate watching anything with empty seats, I can watch the first episodes of ROH in tiny high-school gyms but I hate the bigger places being empty. I'm not the only one, it's why WCW and TNA (and WWF?) have given away tickets so it appears full on TV, obviously smaller companies don't have that luxury.
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