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Post by Barrock on Jul 5, 2010 9:06:35 GMT -5
Besides London and Kendrick, have any other wrestlers spoke candidly about the situation?
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Post by Jacob Lee on Jul 5, 2010 9:12:34 GMT -5
"People steal because they have to"
All people who steal have to? It seems you deal with absolutes more than I do. Stealing to eat and stealing for profit are two very different things.
"Adolf Hitler hated Jews because he blamed them for the economic climate of Germany. He also blamed the war, which he served in, and those he fought. That's why he went after the Jews, and why he started the war. "
I'm pretty sure there's five million dead Jews from that time period who really could care less about WHY Hitler was such a douche.
" the unfortunate implication your statement makes is that people with mental problems are more likely to do bad things. That's along the same lines of logic as "Black people are more likely to steal.""
So the fact that it's proven that a high percentage of people with mental illness are prone to suicide and violence if they are not diagnosed somehow would make me condone racism? I'm trying to connect the dots on this, but I cannot. Racism is a filthy and terrible thing and all people who take part in it are scum. I'm sure you would only find racism to be situational though...
" The option is to be a nobody in the company, or to go make less money and work harder on the indys. Once again, situational."
So you can do the right thing and possibly not be rewarded or do the wrong thing and take the short cut? Sounds like the consequences of life in general. I do see your point on some issues, but not others.
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Matt Dunn
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 5, 2010 9:52:30 GMT -5
A 10 bell salute would've been sufficient, they didn't need to devote the whole show to him. They didn't need to, but considering the precedent they set with Eddie and Owen, it was right to have done the tribute as Chris was a popular current performer as Eddie and Owen were at the time of their deaths. Only in hindsight can it be said that it was a mistake because of the circumstances surrounding Benoit's death. From all indications everyone in the company was shellshocked when they first learned of his death and at a loss on what to do. They obviously should've waited to decide on a tribute (one more day is all that would've been needed), but it is what it is. They did what they thought was best given what they knew at the time.
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Post by angryauthor on Jul 5, 2010 10:05:02 GMT -5
"People steal because they have to" All people who steal have to? It seems you deal with absolutes more than I do. Stealing to eat and stealing for profit are two very different things. Okay. I'll give you this one. "Adolf Hitler hated Jews because he blamed them for the economic climate of Germany. He also blamed the war, which he served in, and those he fought. That's why he went after the Jews, and why he started the war. " I'm pretty sure there's five million dead Jews from that time period who really could care less about WHY Hitler was such a douche. I agree here, but remember that you brought up why Hitler was the way he was, citing mental issues, which I believe to be outright wrong. You can't give a reason why someone did something, and then claim the reason why doesn't matter when someone points out you're probably wrong. " the unfortunate implication your statement makes is that people with mental problems are more likely to do bad things. That's along the same lines of logic as "Black people are more likely to steal."" So the fact that it's proven that a high percentage of people with mental illness are prone to suicide and violence if they are not diagnosed somehow would make me condone racism? I'm trying to connect the dots on this, but I cannot. Racism is a filthy and terrible thing and all people who take part in it are scum. I'm sure you would only find racism to be situational though... Okay. Actually read that comment. I'm not saying that thinking the mentally damaged are predisposed to evil. I'm saying that making broad statements about an entire group of people is prejudicial and ignorant, then giving an example, not calling you a racist. Congratulations on completely missing the point. And yeah, to a degree, racism is situational. In the 50s for example, it was born out of ignorance, and was the societal norm. That's not right, but its true. And if you're brought up in a racist society, guess what? Odds are you'll be racist because most if not all of the influences on your life will be racist. People from this era have children, and being parents, their ideals and views will have a large impact on their children, meaning that the children of racists are more likely to be racist themselves. As there's been more cultural integration, racism has thankfully mostly died down, but guess what, its still around. Its still around because people raised by racists are still having their own children, who think the way mum and dad do to a large degree. Its not like they just wake up one day and say "I think I'll hate the blacks. Damn those blacks." It's the situation they're raised in. " The option is to be a nobody in the company, or to go make less money and work harder on the indys. Once again, situational." So you can do the right thing and possibly not be rewarded or do the wrong thing and take the short cut? Sounds like the consequences of life in general. Again, to a degree I'll agree with you. They shouldn't be taking the short cuts. But know who's making it a short cut, who is making them make this choice: WWE. And somehow you call them blameless. What's more, there are company doctors who give them the pills, and WWE must be aware of them because y'know, Vince buys steroids from them. Hell, the doctors who do this are allowed backstage at TV tapings and PPVs, so the WWE are actually letting them in to peddle poison to their wrestler's. Yeah, blaming WWE is stupid. Their wellness policy is a joke, and while blood will stop a match, a concussion, the injury that played a major factor in Benoit's insanity, isn't cause to continue. You want to play the "mentally damaged people are violent card"? Okay, fine. Leaving aside the ethical ramifications of what you're saying for a second, who is making access to drugs proven to cause unstable behaviour easier and promotion a drug use environment? WWE. Who won't stop a match for a concussion? WWE. Keep saying WWE are blameless if you like. God knows you're not going to make yourself look any stupider than you have already.
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Post by Slammywinner on Jul 5, 2010 10:09:21 GMT -5
I don't think there is any question of the timing here, as he clearly is hoping to influence the senatorial campaign - unlike Martha Hart who is claiming her suit is unrelated. Mike Benoit clearly is referencing her political ad attacking her opponent.
Since Martha is doing her suit, it makes sense that some reporter would want to get a comment from the family of WWE's other great tragedy. And to that effect, he's had a very brief, damning list of criticism arising from that tragedy that calls her out on her claim of having the most personal character and integrity of the 2 major candidates.
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Matt Dunn
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 5, 2010 11:03:09 GMT -5
Whether justified or not, Mr. Benoit is angry at WWE and the wrestling business in general. Does he want Linda to lose? Sure. But, she would just lose a senate campaign which quite frankly she has no business in winning. He lost a son. Mind you, it wasn't Linda's fault (he did die on WWE's watch though) but that is his mindset.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Jul 5, 2010 11:20:04 GMT -5
I find it funny for all the wrong reasons that there's all this talk of how Benoit needed the tribute show and yet most ex-WWE workers are lucky to get 2 seconds at the beginning if they die. I don't even remember whether Umaga got a tribute and there was no question about why he died. It just seems an arrogant and hypocritical treatment of their former employees.
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Matt Dunn
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 5, 2010 11:25:56 GMT -5
^To paraphrase Cornette, everything depends on who they are mad at at the time. Umaga wasn't a WWE employee at the time of his death, neither was Curt Hennig. Owen, Eddie, and Benoit were and died on the WWE's watch.
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Post by Jacob Lee on Jul 5, 2010 11:32:53 GMT -5
Keep saying WWE are blameless if you like. God knows you're not going to make yourself look any stupider than you have already. I'm going to assume you meant "more stupid" there due to the fact that the English language does not contain the word. Try and not get so upset about somebody not agreeing with you. It isn't the end of the world. I feel as if you are making the assumption that I think all mentally ill people commit crimes or desire to hurt people. Saying Hitler is "crazy" or "mentally ill" in my mind doesn't mean Hitler is the same as someone who might suffer from Bipolar Disorder or the like. However, it's quite easy to see you put more blame into the WWE for the Benoit situation than you do for some of the other instances mentioned(Holocaust, Racism, and such). To me this is a blatant double standard. You can put yourself into the shoes of a person who nearly killed an entire race of people on the planet Earth or a group of toothless rednecks who ruined the lives of African Americans, but the WWE is somehow worse? Do you not see how this is somewhat a sensationalized train of thought devoid of logic? Oh, and notice how I didn't imply you were racist against black people or hated Jews. We can be civilized and disagree. Take care.
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Matt Dunn
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 5, 2010 11:37:03 GMT -5
^WWE isn't blameless. He died on their watch and they act like the poor innocent victims every time someone calls them on it. They didn't kill him but he died under their employ. Owen, that's a different story IMO.
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Post by who throws a shoe?! on Jul 5, 2010 11:39:09 GMT -5
I find it funny for all the wrong reasons that there's all this talk of how Benoit needed the tribute show and yet most ex-WWE workers are lucky to get 2 seconds at the beginning if they die. I don't even remember whether Umaga got a tribute and there was no question about why he died. It just seems an arrogant and hypocritical treatment of their former employees. Well, it's not. If I die tomorrow do I expect the place I currently work for to acknowledge it? Hell yes. Would I expect somewhere I used to work to? Hell no. Let's put it into perspective here.
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Matt Dunn
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 5, 2010 11:40:29 GMT -5
^ ^To paraphrase Cornette, everything depends on who they are mad at at the time. Umaga wasn't a WWE employee at the time of his death, neither was Curt Hennig. Owen, Eddie, and Benoit were and died on the WWE's watch.
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Dave at the Movies
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Jul 5, 2010 11:52:38 GMT -5
^WWE isn't blameless. He died on their watch and they act like the poor innocent victims every time someone calls them on it. They didn't kill him but he died under their employ. Owen, that's a different story IMO. Well you have to put it into a bit more of a complicated perspective. If Benoit was taking HGH(i believe they can now test for it since there is a pretty accurate test for it that came out 6 months or a year ago, probably why Orton shrinked) and WWE didn't have the capability to see if he was clean or not then there was nothing they could suspend him for and they really don't deserve much blame unless they were forcing him to work without taking some time off like they do with other guys all the time. Honestly though WWE doesn't deserve any of the blame if they didn't know he was taking drugs and was coming up clean on their drug testing and if they were giving him plenty of time off. So if that was the case then saying that they should feel guilty for Benoit doing what he did is a little ridiculous. What if someone works at McDonalds and kills his family and himself? Is McDonalds really to be blamed in that case?
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Matt Dunn
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 5, 2010 11:54:11 GMT -5
^They didn't kill him but they aren't blameless.
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Post by Hassan bin Sober on Jul 5, 2010 11:58:57 GMT -5
I don't see how WWE is to blame for the Benoit murders. It's easy to say you're not saying one thing (that you seemed to be saying) while at the same time saying they are not blameless without explaining how.
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Matt Dunn
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Post by Matt Dunn on Jul 5, 2010 12:01:57 GMT -5
^It's the culture of WWE. Guys that were doing drugs and everything. The workers found ways to beat drug tests and everything. And the fact that they weren't protecting guys enough. Look at what they are doing now. Is that a coincidence? No. If this wouldn't have happened, we wouldn't have the PG rating.
Could they have known everything? Of course not. Did they turn a blind eye to certain things? Yes. I mean, look at all the sexual harrasment allegations and stuff over the years. And the aftermath with Daniel and the fragile X and everything else is the most disturbing.
Look, when a kid runs off from a parent that is not paying attention and runs into the road and is killed by a truck, it is the parent's fault. Intentional or no.
I watch wrestling for the wrestlers not the McMahons.
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Post by who throws a shoe?! on Jul 5, 2010 12:02:28 GMT -5
To me, they're not blameless if they knew (which they probably did). However, the buck stops with Benoit. He's the one who made the decision to take whatever it was he was taking, and made the decision to have a diving headbutt as his finishing move, which is essentially what destroyed his brain.
Are WWE innocent? No. But personal accountability has to come into it.
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Dave at the Movies
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Jul 5, 2010 12:02:29 GMT -5
^They didn't kill him but they aren't blameless. How are they to share some of the blame though if they thought he was clean and was giving him plenty of time off? It's not like Vince himself threw Benoit up onto the ropes and pushed him off to do a headbutt. Chris Benoit chose to be a professional wrestler. He knew what that entailed and knew the pain he would have to endure especially since he was trained by the Harts. Tell me how they are to be blamed partly when there is nothing they could have done differently as far as we know to prevent it. There have been other wrestlers who have had tons of concussions and been on drugs. Did anyone of them kill their family? The other big thing in this is that WWE would have never thought just like many fans would have never though that Benoit would ever do anything like this. He was highly respected and always seemed to be very disciplined. Are we as fans who cheered every time he gave a headbutt partly to blame as well?
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Post by Jacob Lee on Jul 5, 2010 12:03:22 GMT -5
^They didn't kill him but they aren't blameless. What would have been the best way for WWE to go about preventing one of their workers from killing his wife, waiting a whole other day and then killing his son and then himself?
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Dave at the Movies
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Jul 5, 2010 12:06:56 GMT -5
You said your piece but you aren't explaining the explanation of why WWE should be blamed just automatically without any details. Like I said earlier that is like blaming a McDonalds if one of their employees kill their family and themselves.
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