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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Sept 9, 2010 18:46:18 GMT -5
This is something I have repeatedly seen stated on the boards over the past several months, and I think it's time to clear this up. In fact, I saw this quote in the thread about RKOing Darren Young and was about to go off on a rant about it, but figured it was off-topic enough that it deserved its own thread: Orton's a tweener, not a face. No, he isn't. He isn't a tweener at all, anymore than Austin circa '98-2000 could be called a tweener, and the fact that both of them (and many other babyfaces) get called tweeners repeatedly around here suggests a fundamental misconception of what the phrase actually means. What defines a wrestler's character as a babyface/heel/whatever has nothing to do with the character's morality, it has to do with whether or not they're being presented as someone we should cheer and root for. Orton's current character is, unquestionably, intended to be cool and likable, and it is expected and encouraged that he is going to be getting lots of cheers in every segment he's in, even if he's acting like an asshole. Even when he's RKOing good guys like Bourne or Morrison, Orton is presented as this awesome badass who we, the audience, are expected to like (and judging from the reactions he's getting, we tend to do so). Even when he's going up against our current ultimate babyface, Cena, it's not a good guy vs. bad guy situation: the commentators are very apparently playing up that these are both awesome guys who get big amounts of fan support, albeit with very different attitudes. A tweener is someone like Kane's character for the better part of the last decade. He's made occasional forrays into pure heeldom, but for the most part, Kane's been presented as this largely neutral force of unstable destruction. When he's up against a babyface, we root for them to overcome/survive against this big, brutal monster. When he's up against a heel, we root for Kane to beat the crap out of them. The first few months of the Undertaker's vegetative state angle are a perfect example of this; Kane could, in the same episode, go from segment to segment acting basically the same but being perceived differently: when he's hounding Punk or Swagger, he's the face, but when he's going after Rey or Big Show, our sympathies are against him. Hell, if there's any tweener on RAW at the moment, it's Edge (and to a lesser extent, Jericho), who's settled into this sort of role since the Nexus angle started. Edge is given segments where he's standing up to Barrett or Sheamus or whoever and we're supposed to be cheering for him, and then can follow that immediately by berating Cena or Orton, and we're back to booing him. THAT'S a tweener: a guy who, while playing the same character, can shift from babyface to heel from segment to segment, depending on who he's interacting with. A guy like Orton, a guy who is intended to be constantly cheered, even when he's doing unethical things, is a babyface.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Sept 9, 2010 18:47:30 GMT -5
Orton's a face. A forced head wiggling copy of Steve Austin, but a face nonehteless.
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Sept 9, 2010 18:50:23 GMT -5
Well RKOing people who help you is a dick move,so he is a dick face.
and a dick head,he looks like a giant shaved penis.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2010 19:22:04 GMT -5
Sorry I did't have the "purely factual definitive wrestling glossary of all characters and alignments" on hand when I made the post that apparently infuriated you so, but regardless, I disagree.
You mentioned Kane being presented as a largely neutral force of destruction, yet for the vast majority of that period, the audience is meant to be excited when he comes out, because it means someone is getting beat down. Orton is the exact same way now, a largely neutral force of destruction. The only difference was that, for most of the past decade, Kane was middling around the midcard and Orton is doing it in the main events. Orton is an anti-hero, he's a guy who is selfish and prickish but has suddenly begun to be liked for it.
As for the crowd reaction, the crowd reaction is just that. The Miz will get cheers, John Cena will get boos, and absolutely nothing changes about their alignments.
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Post by Alex Shelley on Sept 9, 2010 19:24:34 GMT -5
*slow clap*
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Post by Cyno on Sept 9, 2010 19:25:07 GMT -5
I think of Orton as an anti-face. He is a face in that he's a protagonistic character that the fans are supposed to cheer for, but he has heelish mannerisms.
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Post by Allison Reynolds on Sept 9, 2010 19:27:18 GMT -5
A Big YES, to the topic post. Seriously I think rnrk, along with his Sheamus Oriented avatar/sig, is one of the best posters of WWE Current, simply cause he posts what I'm always thinking.
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Post by Sumbody Gon' Get Dey Kneelift on Sept 9, 2010 20:45:15 GMT -5
That said, he's still a "bad person."
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Sept 9, 2010 21:00:03 GMT -5
I think of Orton as an anti-face. He is a face in that he's a protagonistic character that the fans are supposed to cheer for, but he has heelish mannerisms. This is the best way to describe what Orton is. Anti-face seems to be the right term. I also agree that Jericho wanders into "tweener" territory quite a bit as of late. If he's against another heel, the general audience depends on him. However, he can garner more than his fair share of boos or indifference against every face.
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Post by Starshine on Sept 9, 2010 21:11:57 GMT -5
That's strange, I didn't know there was a universally accepted definition for "tweener." Why wouldn't there be? We accept other wrestling terms as having a universal definition? Are we going to start arguing about what a 'face' and 'heel' are too? A tweener is a character who straddles the line beTWEEN (hense tweener) face and heel. Orton isn't a tweener because everything he does is directed to draw crowd pops.
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Post by kuda on Sept 9, 2010 21:18:18 GMT -5
I've been watching wrestling for over twenty years. In my opinion, I would certainly call Randy Orton a tweener. It's just a weird thing because he's also like their #2 babyface and arguably moving to #1. I assume if they push him past Cena (which they won't because Cena makes too much money) you would see Orton no longer doing "shades of gray" things like hitting the RKO on babyfaces.
It was the same with Austin and really The Rock too. It's just a different time. Hell, even back when Hogan was uber babyface, he would still do back rakes or slap Earthquake with a chair and s***. It's nothing really new for WWF.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2010 21:32:10 GMT -5
That's strange, I didn't know there was a universally accepted definition for "tweener." Why wouldn't there be? We accept other wrestling terms as having a universal definition? Are we going to start arguing about what a 'face' and 'heel' are too? A tweener is a character who straddles the line beTWEEN (hense tweener) face and heel. Orton isn't a tweener because everything he does is directed to draw crowd pops. Heels play up the crowds too. If a wrestlers gets no crowd reaction, they don't last. Faces and heels, on the other hands, do things in the ring and out that signify them as such.
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Post by Starshine on Sept 9, 2010 21:36:19 GMT -5
Why wouldn't there be? We accept other wrestling terms as having a universal definition? Are we going to start arguing about what a 'face' and 'heel' are too? A tweener is a character who straddles the line beTWEEN (hense tweener) face and heel. Orton isn't a tweener because everything he does is directed to draw crowd pops. Heels play up the crowds too. If a wrestlers gets no crowd reaction, they don't last. Faces and heels, on the other hands, do things in the ring and out that signify them as such. Everything Orton does generates a positive crowd reaction. He's a face. When he gives an RKO to anyone, face or heel. The announcers never go on about how dirty he is for taking advantage of someone like they would last year. They basically go on about how Orton is sending a message or something similar. Which they've done for faces all the time, including undeniable super face John Cena.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2010 21:43:37 GMT -5
Heels play up the crowds too. If a wrestlers gets no crowd reaction, they don't last. Faces and heels, on the other hands, do things in the ring and out that signify them as such. Everything Orton does generates a positive crowd reaction. He's a face. When he gives an RKO to anyone, face or heel. The announcers never go on about how dirty he is for taking advantage of someone like they would last year. They basically go on about how Orton is sending a message or something similar. Which they've done for faces all the time, including undeniable super face John Cena. How often does John Cena hit his finisher against faces that he's not in a match with?
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Post by Starshine on Sept 9, 2010 21:46:40 GMT -5
Why wouldn't there be? We accept other wrestling terms as having a universal definition? Are we going to start arguing about what a 'face' and 'heel' are too? A tweener is a character who straddles the line beTWEEN (hense tweener) face and heel. Orton isn't a tweener because everything he does is directed to draw crowd pops. Sometimes things aren't simply black and white. People use labels to feel comfortable about the world. If a tweener is someone inBETWEEN a face and a hell, then I classify Orton as a tweener as he does some things a face does (stand up to Nexus) but also does some things a heel does (attack an innocent Darren Young who just provided the distraction for Orton to win his match). Don't fear the grey areas. Orton would attack Darren Young because he was a part of the group that invaded his show and left him lying among countless others for months on end. There's no reason for Orton to be on his side at all. If we're looking at a shades of grey argument then Darren Young shouldn't be a face. He's done nothing to justify being a good guy in the eyes of the RAW wrestlers. He cost Wade Barrett the match not to help Orton but to get back at the guy who kicked him to the curb. If we believe this then Orton has done nothing heelish at all.
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Post by Starshine on Sept 9, 2010 21:49:58 GMT -5
Everything Orton does generates a positive crowd reaction. He's a face. When he gives an RKO to anyone, face or heel. The announcers never go on about how dirty he is for taking advantage of someone like they would last year. They basically go on about how Orton is sending a message or something similar. Which they've done for faces all the time, including undeniable super face John Cena. How often does John Cena hit his finisher against faces that he's not in a match with? Just off the top of my head, one that stands out was when he hit his finisher on Teddy Long because he was frustrated that he couldn't get at JBL. Considering Long was a good guy, not involved with JBL's group at all, and not even a wrestler. That was more heelish than anything Orton has done since breaking up Legacy.
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Post by BxB on Sept 9, 2010 21:51:29 GMT -5
He isn't a tweener, just not a cookie cutter babyface either. He's basically being booked as Austin 2.0 and going by the crowd reaction, it seems to be working.
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Post by Snowman on Sept 9, 2010 21:54:54 GMT -5
He's a face, a big fat in your face face. The only active guy who is more of a face than him right now is the Untertaker. That's frankly quite the face!
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Sept 9, 2010 21:58:38 GMT -5
Why wouldn't there be? We accept other wrestling terms as having a universal definition? Are we going to start arguing about what a 'face' and 'heel' are too? A tweener is a character who straddles the line beTWEEN (hense tweener) face and heel. Orton isn't a tweener because everything he does is directed to draw crowd pops. Sometimes things aren't simply black and white. People use labels to feel comfortable about the world. If a tweener is someone inBETWEEN a face and a hell, then I classify Orton as a tweener as he does some things a face does (stand up to Nexus) but also does some things a heel does (attack an innocent Darren Young who just provided the distraction for Orton to win his match). Don't fear the grey areas. Ah, but here's the thing. Face/heel/tweener aren't (so far as I believe the terms are generally used) directly equivalent to good/bad/ambiguous as far as morality goes. In fact, I don't think the terms really have any connection to the implied morality of the pro wrestling characters at all: they're descriptions of the characters' places in the booking angles and the reactions they're intended to inspire from the audience. A babyface is a guy who the fans like enough that they buy tickets in the hopes of seeing him win and kick ass. Sometimes, the character is rendered likeable by being presented as an upstanding person, but a character can also be cheered for other reasons, like being just plain cool. Is it a "bad" thing when Orton RKOs a guy who just helped him like Bourne or Young, or a heroic guy like Cena? Yes, it is. But it isn't a heelish thing, because the commentators and the crowds sell these as "OMG Orton is so badass he's ready to take everyone out" moments. Since his turn against Legacy early in the year, I can't think of a single segment Orton's been placed in where the intent has been to make him look unlikable, or to make us want to see the other guy beat HIM up. He's done plenty of amoral things, certainly, but those are sold as part of his appeal rather than as a reason to boo him. And it's not just Orton, or Austin. Plenty of babyfaces are assholes. Undertaker is f***ing horrible person who steals peoples' souls and sends them to hell for hitting him with a chair or costing him a championship match or some petty shit like that. What makes them faces is that they're pushed as guys who we're supposed to cheer for and want to see win.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2010 22:00:22 GMT -5
How often does John Cena hit his finisher against faces that he's not in a match with? Just off the top of my head, one that stands out was when he hit his finisher on Teddy Long because he was frustrated that he couldn't get at JBL. Considering Long was a good guy, not involved with JBL's group at all, and not even a wrestler. That was more heelish than anything Orton has done since breaking up Legacy. So, one time in several years then? Orton's hit it more times this past month against faces.
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