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Post by Starshine on Sept 9, 2010 22:12:58 GMT -5
Orton would attack Darren Young because he was a part of the group that invaded his show and left him lying among countless others for months on end. There's no reason for Orton to be on his side at all. If we're looking at a shades of grey argument then Darren Young shouldn't be a face. He's done nothing to justify being a good guy in the eyes of the RAW wrestlers. He cost Wade Barrett the match not to help Orton but to get back at the guy who kicked him to the curb. If we believe this then Orton has done nothing heelish at all. Glad you're beginning to see my point. You can call someone rude, but I might think they're being bold. Perceptions aren't always going to be the same. You can't say "this guy is this because I SAID HE IS." Well, you can, but that doesn't mean anyone has to accept it. But since you want to try to define tweeners with a universally accepted definition, I'm going to pull the definition off the internet. "Tweener a morally ambiguous wrestler, neither a bad guy or good guy (an inbetweener).[1] This term is also used to describe wrestlers who use tactics typically associated with heels (e.g., cheating), yet are still cheered by fans in spite of (or because of) these antics. The term is also used to describe wrestlers that remain popular, even though they are actually heels." Attacking people without being provoked constitutes heel behavior, right? Well there you go. Or wait, did I pick the wrong definition? I wouldn't completely trust a wikipedia defintion (assuming you found it at the same place I did). PWTorch who IMO have a little more weight and whom Wiki reference, only has a definition of: "Tweener. (n) One who is neither a babyface [dfn.] nor a heel [dfn.], or one who is in the process of turning [dfn.] from one to the other." Using this it doesn't completely support Orton's character who does appear to fit the mould of a 'babyface' more than that. "Babyface (n) The "good guy" or "hero." The performer whom the promoter books [dfn.] in the position of being cheered."
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2010 22:13:49 GMT -5
Sometimes things aren't simply black and white. People use labels to feel comfortable about the world. If a tweener is someone inBETWEEN a face and a hell, then I classify Orton as a tweener as he does some things a face does (stand up to Nexus) but also does some things a heel does (attack an innocent Darren Young who just provided the distraction for Orton to win his match). Don't fear the grey areas. Ah, but here's the thing. Face/heel/tweener aren't (so far as I believe the terms are generally used) directly equivalent to good/bad/ambiguous as far as morality goes. In fact, I don't think the terms really have any connection to the implied morality of the pro wrestling characters at all: they're descriptions of the characters' places in the booking angles and the reactions they're intended to inspire from the audience. A babyface is a guy who the fans like enough that they buy tickets in the hopes of seeing him win and kick ass. Sometimes, the character is rendered likeable by being presented as an upstanding person, but a character can also be cheered for other reasons, like being just plain cool. Is it a "bad" thing when Orton RKOs a guy who just helped him like Bourne or Young, or a heroic guy like Cena? Yes, it is. But it isn't a heelish thing, because the commentators and the crowds sell these as "OMG Orton is so badass he's ready to take everyone out" moments. Since his turn against Legacy early in the year, I can't think of a single segment Orton's been placed in where the intent has been to make him look unlikable, or to make us want to see the other guy beat HIM up. He's done plenty of amoral things, certainly, but those are sold as part of his appeal rather than as a reason to boo him. And it's not just Orton, or Austin. Plenty of babyfaces are assholes. Undertaker is f***ing horrible person who steals peoples' souls and sends them to hell for hitting him with a chair or costing him a championship match or some petty s*** like that. What makes them faces is that they're pushed as guys who we're supposed to cheer for and want to see win. I disagree. For faces and heels, they do tend to behave in a certain way that differentiate them from each other, regardless of actual gimmick. Even if the Undertaker's character would generally be a heel character, his actions change depending on whether he is a face or a heel. It is completely about those actions. Tweeners are characters who got over despite using some general heel tactics or mannerisms, and I'd say unprovoked attacks on just about anyone would qualify.
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Post by Starshine on Sept 9, 2010 22:17:45 GMT -5
Just off the top of my head, one that stands out was when he hit his finisher on Teddy Long because he was frustrated that he couldn't get at JBL. Considering Long was a good guy, not involved with JBL's group at all, and not even a wrestler. That was more heelish than anything Orton has done since breaking up Legacy. So, one time in several years then? Orton's hit it more times this past month against faces. But still if we agree that Cena was a face then, and Orton hasn't done anything to the level of that apparent heelish-ness, or hell even compared to Batista from 2006-2008. Then Orton is relatively a face in comparison.
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Post by kneelbeforezod on Sept 9, 2010 22:19:04 GMT -5
Well RKOing people who help you is a dick move,so he is a dick face. and a dick head,he looks like a giant shaved penis. I lold
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2010 22:22:06 GMT -5
So, one time in several years then? Orton's hit it more times this past month against faces. But still if we agree that Cena was a face then, and Orton hasn't done anything to the level of that apparent heelish-ness, or hell even compared to Batista from 2006-2008. Then Orton is relatively a face in comparison. Orton randomly attacks anyone who is in the ring with him, regardless of alignment, which is a definite tweener characteristic. You can try to justify that Darren Young shouldn't be trusted, but I'm not buying that reasoning. He brought him in purely to attack him, that's not a face action. It's not a one-time event because he's pissed, it's just what he does. That's the difference between Cena FU'ing Teddy Long several years ago and Orton now. The only thing that has really changed for the Orton character is that Legacy is gone. He's still the same basic character, people just cheer him now. But they were cheering him before as well. That's the difference between defining faces/heels and tweeners. It's always easier to define the extremes than the middle ground.
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Post by Starshine on Sept 9, 2010 22:24:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't completely trust a wikipedia defintion (assuming you found it at the same place I did). PWTorch who IMO have a little more weight and whom Wiki reference, only has a definition of: "Tweener. (n) One who is neither a babyface [dfn.] nor a heel [dfn.], or one who is in the process of turning [dfn.] from one to the other." Using this it doesn't completely support Orton's character who does appear to fit the mould of a 'babyface' more than that. "Babyface (n) The "good guy" or "hero." The performer whom the promoter books [dfn.] in the position of being cheered." So you're agreeing that there is no completely accepted definition of what a tweener is, then? What has any booker done to promote Orton as a face, make him torture Legacy for months until beating them both at Wrestlemania and getting a popular crowd reaction? Sorry, I don't buy it. I only used definitions because you brought it up. I see Orton as being a good guy by proxy. By that I mean he was turned because the fans demanded it. Not because it made sense in the storylines. At the very core I think we can both probably agree that Randy Orton is a 'good guy' who is also a real jerk.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 9, 2010 22:30:06 GMT -5
So you're agreeing that there is no completely accepted definition of what a tweener is, then? What has any booker done to promote Orton as a face, make him torture Legacy for months until beating them both at Wrestlemania and getting a popular crowd reaction? Sorry, I don't buy it. I only used definitions because you brought it up. I see Orton as being a good guy by proxy. By that I mean he was turned because the fans demanded it. Not because it made sense in the storylines. At the very core I think we can both probably agree that Randy Orton is a 'good guy' who is also a real jerk. I'd say a better classification would be that he's a jerk who just happens to mostly fight bad guys. That's what makes him "face-by-proxy"
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Sept 9, 2010 22:32:19 GMT -5
Is it a "bad" thing when Orton RKOs a guy who just helped him like Bourne or Young, or a heroic guy like Cena? Yes, it is. But it isn't a heelish thing, because the commentators and the crowds sell these as "OMG Orton is so badass he's ready to take everyone out" moments. I'm going to use your argument against you here. If the fan perception of Orton's behavior defines him and I view his attacking of Bourne, Young, and Cena as a dastardly thing to do, then am I not defining him as a heel? Because the fans are defining him as a "badass" face, right? They're making him a face. Why can't I make him a heel based on that behavior? My point is you can't claim that Orton is a not a tweener as a fact because I don't accept it as a fact. Oh, you can certainly dislike Orton for RKOing various guys for no justifiable reason. You can also dislike Hulk Hogan for being a glory-seeking dickhead who undermined Randy Savage's championship reign and abandoned him during a tag match against the Twin Towers. And you can dislike Jeff Hardy for being an unrepentant drug addict who refused to adopt the Straight Edge lifestyle no matter how often Punk suggested it. But I think you can see that these aren't the reactions the bookers are intending you to have, nor the angles that they're trying to sell. Listen to the way the commentators talk about Orton when he RKOs someone out of nowhere, or when they show replays of said RKOs later on in the show or the week after, or note that none of the sympathetic babyfaces seem to go after or hold a grudge against Orton for attacking them, nor is their any talk of Orton getting or deserving any commupance for his actions down the line. I'm sure we could redub the exact same segments in a Rashomon-esque fashion, without changing any of the onscreen action, and make it come across as though Orton's this repugnantly violent brute, but that's not the story WWE's selling to us.
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Post by Starshine on Sept 9, 2010 22:53:37 GMT -5
But still if we agree that Cena was a face then, and Orton hasn't done anything to the level of that apparent heelish-ness, or hell even compared to Batista from 2006-2008. Then Orton is relatively a face in comparison. Orton randomly attacks anyone who is in the ring with him, regardless of alignment, which is a definite tweener characteristic. You can try to justify that Darren Young shouldn't be trusted, but I'm not buying that reasoning. He brought him in purely to attack him, that's not a face action. It's not a one-time event because he's pissed, it's just what he does. That's the difference between Cena FU'ing Teddy Long several years ago and Orton now. The only thing that has really changed for the Orton character is that Legacy is gone. He's still the same basic character, people just cheer him now. But they were cheering him before as well. That's the difference between defining faces/heels and tweeners. It's always easier to define the extremes than the middle ground. Do you agree with my train of thought, that a face is booked to do things that will get a live crowd excited? Or if not, what do you think?
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Sept 9, 2010 23:34:24 GMT -5
Why are we arguing semantics?
Randy Orton had a face turn but didn't change his character at all. He's still the loner type and goes around RKOing everyone in striking distance. You don't see John Cena giving AAs to everyone do you?
It seems like the OP just wants to interpret the definition of a tweener his way just to start up an argument about it.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,013
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Post by nate5054 on Sept 10, 2010 0:11:19 GMT -5
Even when he's RKOing good guys like Bourne or Morrison, Orton is presented as this awesome badass who we, the audience, are expected to like (and judging from the reactions he's getting, we tend to do so). Can anyone tell me why I'm expected to like that, because on its face, it seems like a total jerk move. Much like black Cena going over to him seemed like a total idiot move.
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Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
When Toronto sports teams lose, Alison Brie is sad
Posts: 11,090
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Sept 10, 2010 0:33:16 GMT -5
I still don't understand what we're arguing. From purely the perspective of character, Orton is clearly a tweener. From the perspective of booking and crowd reaction, he's arguably the #1 babyface in the company.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Sept 10, 2010 0:51:13 GMT -5
I like to compare Orton to the character of Riddick in "Pitch Black". You know he's a bad dude, but you cheer him on the entire way, because he's taking that bad attitude and using it to survive against things much worse than himself. That's an anti-hero.
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JMA
Hank Scorpio
Down With Capitalism!
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Post by JMA on Sept 10, 2010 1:02:14 GMT -5
and a dick head,he looks like a giant shaved penis. THANK YOU. Someone needed to point that out.
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Greer
Unicron
Points. Don't. Matter.
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Post by Greer on Sept 10, 2010 1:06:31 GMT -5
Randy Orton is NOT entertaining.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,305
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Post by The Ichi on Sept 10, 2010 2:53:58 GMT -5
I honestly don't even think Tweener's exist. Some smark just made up the word someday and people ran with it.
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Post by Alex Shelley on Sept 10, 2010 3:14:10 GMT -5
I honestly don't even think Tweener's exist. Some smark just made up the word someday and people ran with it. I disagree. If nobody else, then I consider Kane a tweener, and have considered him such for years. He may occasionally move closer to the face or heel side, but Kane is just... Kane. He's not booked to incite any particular crowd reaction, he's booked to be Kane, and they know he'll get a reaction either way.
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Post by "Dashing" Dr.VonPhoenix on Sept 10, 2010 4:42:57 GMT -5
Orton is Austin. 2005 plus era, anyway. I still consider him a heel and don't know why these marks are cheering him.
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Post by Russian Assassin on Sept 10, 2010 4:45:00 GMT -5
What a heck of a topic to make my first post on, eh?
By all definitions, Hulk Hogan was pretty much a tweener during his whole initial babyface run in the WWF. I can think of multiple examples:
His moveset consisted of a lot of closed fists, which are definitely not allowed.
The reason Andre and Hulk went at it was because Hulk cut in on Andre when he wanted to speak after being awarded the trophy for his undefeated run.
Wrestlemania IV he popped Andre with a chair. In the main event he cracked Dibiase with a chair. After the match he stuck around and took some of the spotlight off Macho Man.
Randy Savage was right about Hogan being all over Liz, damnit.
Wrestlemania IX is a great example as well. After coming in to check on Bret, Hogan accepted Fuji's challenge to face Yoko right then and there. A true babyface would accept that the man just had a heck of a match and given him time to recover, but not the Hulkster.
I'm sure more examples can be easily found, but aside from the prayers and vitamins spiel he was still really heelish at times. And don't get me started on what he did to Mean Gene,
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 10, 2010 8:14:37 GMT -5
Orton randomly attacks anyone who is in the ring with him, regardless of alignment, which is a definite tweener characteristic. You can try to justify that Darren Young shouldn't be trusted, but I'm not buying that reasoning. He brought him in purely to attack him, that's not a face action. It's not a one-time event because he's pissed, it's just what he does. That's the difference between Cena FU'ing Teddy Long several years ago and Orton now. The only thing that has really changed for the Orton character is that Legacy is gone. He's still the same basic character, people just cheer him now. But they were cheering him before as well. That's the difference between defining faces/heels and tweeners. It's always easier to define the extremes than the middle ground. Do you agree with my train of thought, that a face is booked to do things that will get a live crowd excited? Or if not, what do you think? I see your reasoning, but I disagree. All wrestlers are booked to do things to get the crowd riled up. Any wrestler that doesn't, fails. Heels try to get just as much of a reaction as faces. The difference between them tends to be the tactics and, when it involves another wrestler, who they do it to. Faces can't be dicks (MVP attacking a wheelchair bound man, Undertaker tombstoning Vickie Guerrero), but faces are almost entirely dicks to heels, just as heels are dicks to faces. Randy Orton's character hasn't changed a bit. He's still a dick to everyone. He just gets cheered for it. But tweeners are just as capable of being cheered as faces (in fact, after the Attitude era, a tweener is more likely). Being a tweener doesn't mean you constantly switch between face and heel, it means you're largely neutral, which Orton is.
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