Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Sept 14, 2010 22:50:58 GMT -5
My only concern is that this could end in WWE going under. But, yes, these people are employees and need to be classified as such. It's completely ridiculous that they're not considered employees. Worst-case scenario, they'd just re-structure the relationship with the talent to make them true "independent contractors". I'm not sure a wrestling company can work without that designation. If they restructured and made the superstars true independent contractors, it would leave them open to work for companies like ROH without needing WWE's consent.
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Post by joeskvorecky on Sept 14, 2010 22:59:52 GMT -5
If you mean insurance, that's probably still a pipedream. The rates wrestlers would have to pay an insurance company (if any would accept them) would be astronomical, and if they were put into group with every other employee with the company to try to bring it down, the rates would still likely be extremely high. Besides, WWE already pays for a good chunk of healthcare out of pocket, IIRC. What they do need is paid vacation time. There's no way that schedule they're on should stand. WWE pays for their health expenses while they're there -- not after or before. They don't help them get healthcare after leaving. That is immensely f***ed up. Wrestlers necessarily hurt themselves wrestling -- or should I say, entertaining -- for WWE, but they receive no assistance, they become addicted on painkillers which are cheaper than actually curing the source of the pain (getting surgery, etc.), and the WWE offers to give them rehab -- without addressing the real problem.
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Paul
Vegeta
Posts: 9,243
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Post by Paul on Sept 14, 2010 23:13:26 GMT -5
If you mean insurance, that's probably still a pipedream. The rates wrestlers would have to pay an insurance company (if any would accept them) would be astronomical, and if they were put into group with every other employee with the company to try to bring it down, the rates would still likely be extremely high. Besides, WWE already pays for a good chunk of healthcare out of pocket, IIRC. What they do need is paid vacation time. There's no way that schedule they're on should stand. WWE pays for their health expenses while they're there -- not after or before. They don't help them get healthcare after leaving. That is immensely f***ed up. Wrestlers necessarily hurt themselves wrestling -- or should I say, entertaining -- for WWE, but they receive no assistance, they become addicted on painkillers which are cheaper than actually curing the source of the pain (getting surgery, etc.), and the WWE offers to give them rehab -- without addressing the real problem. On the flip side, nobody is forcing them to be wrestlers (or work for the WWE for that matter).
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Sept 14, 2010 23:18:18 GMT -5
Jesus, it's too bad one can't discuss politics in here when that's ALL it is.
Like, apologies to all those that think this would be AWESOME scenario -you know, WWE getting in deep trouble, being forced to put many people out of work, or having to cut their pay considerably, losing millions and millions of dollars each year forever, etc. Sounds like a blogger's wet dream, if they hate wrestling.
But anyway, the reality is that WWE has always complied with the laws for independent contractors. Bottom line, its politics as usual. Republicans love to do it but democrats can be just as guilty a lot of the time. Its for things like debates, so Blumenthal can say this stuff against McMahon... You know, its a pretty great thing to say that your opponent's former company is being investigated and that you had nothing to do with it as Attorney General of the state. Sounds wicked in a campaign video and stuff.
So once again, as much as there are rules against talking politics in a wrestling thread or whatever the exact rule is... that is precisely what this investigation is about. Plain and simple. This kind of thing happens literally every single election cycle in at least one state in the U.S. So as scary or dramatic or awful or mouth watering of a story this seems to everyone, I guarantee we're all gonna laugh about it soon enough.
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Post by Rolent Tex on Sept 14, 2010 23:37:55 GMT -5
It just saddens me that this is probably related to one of those topics we're not allowed to discuss in the forums, because it's about time. Wrestlers are never going to get regular insurance, but they could have an easy case with how WWE uses it's "independent contractor" classification.
If you dare do anything outside of WWE that doesn't benefit them or if you don't allow them to get their dirty mitts involved somehow, you either get abused on TV or released altogether. Isn't that one of the things Maria complained about after her release? That doesn't sound very much like an independent contractor to me. "You're all allowed to pursue outside work, but you do so at your own risk."
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 14, 2010 23:52:04 GMT -5
Wrestlers can't get regular insurance due to some issues with wrestlers getting huge lumps of money from Lloyds of London. Again, it's a large issue that can't be discussed. Though, I don't know, it does suck, because some people can be civil, and, I think I'm rational enough that if someone with an opposing opinion makes a good case for something, that I can buy what they're selling. But, when people get all angry and bothered by something someone says or believes, people can get pretty immature. I mean, f***, I've been more worked up on stuff dirt sheet writers say, then what some political figures do. Though, I probably could get worked up about some political issues, but it would be no different then getting worked up about wrestling issues.
But anyway, I knew this was going to happen, because when Linda started running for office, I knew that the WWE was going to be looked at under a microscope and one of the issues brought up would be this. Because, that's just simply what's going to happen. Because, they're gonna find a way to bury the opponent, no matter who it is, and they're going to look in on their practices to find flaws to use against that person.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 14, 2010 23:59:44 GMT -5
At will only works for noncontracted employment. WWE talent are contracted workers. In order for the WWE to get to utilize at-will employment, they would have to deal with all the aspects of it, namely employees can quit any time that they wish. WWE will NEVER go for that. It only applies to contracted employees if there is a specified term in the contract. If there are indefinite terms of employment, they can still fire at will. WWE pays for their health expenses while they're there -- not after or before. They don't help them get healthcare after leaving. That is immensely f***ed up. Wrestlers necessarily hurt themselves wrestling -- or should I say, entertaining -- for WWE, but they receive no assistance, they become addicted on painkillers which are cheaper than actually curing the source of the pain (getting surgery, etc.), and the WWE offers to give them rehab -- without addressing the real problem. Why, pray tell, should they be expected to pay for health care for a person before they enter the company? For after they leave, I don't know of any job, except maybe some government positions, that pays for health care after a person has left the company. It's not feasible, it's not realistic, and it's certainly not a part of any labor rules that I know of, unless you're talking specifically about unions. Unions would, in fact, be something completely different from making them actual employees.
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JMA
Hank Scorpio
Down With Capitalism!
Posts: 6,880
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Post by JMA on Sept 15, 2010 1:42:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I always thought that it was a dick move by the WWE to consistently insist on categorizing their talent as independent contractors. It won't cost the company any more money, it just means that talent can force them to let them take some time off (which top guys can get on demand but midcarders sometimes cannot even when they are hurt and only want to work TV tapings). It might also mean that they WWE might not be as capable of dumping talent as willy-nilly as they prefer. Indeed. And let's be honest about it, WWE DOES exploit its workers by treating them as employee except when it comes to benefits. It's hard to debate that really.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,355
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 15, 2010 13:02:42 GMT -5
Yeah, I always thought that it was a dick move by the WWE to consistently insist on categorizing their talent as independent contractors. It won't cost the company any more money, it just means that talent can force them to let them take some time off (which top guys can get on demand but midcarders sometimes cannot even when they are hurt and only want to work TV tapings). It might also mean that they WWE might not be as capable of dumping talent as willy-nilly as they prefer. Indeed. And let's be honest about it, WWE DOES exploit its workers by treating them as employee except when it comes to benefits. It's hard to debate that really. The only argument is that no one is forced to sign the contracts, but when you have a virtual monopoly on their chosen profession, what else are they going to do?
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Sept 15, 2010 14:49:23 GMT -5
Yes it is. There's no way that schedule they're on should stand. 300 dates a year, IIRC. Out of MLB, the NFL, the NHL and the NBA, baseball has the longest season with 162 games. Starting pitchers are given four days to rest because the team acknowledges that they need it and that these guys can't be expected to pitch every single day without giving their bodies time to recover. And with the other guys, who play in pretty much every game, you see them getting tired as the season wears on. It shows in their performance. That's just from physical exertion, remember. You combine physical exertion with taking bumps, and ask your employees (or independent contractors, if you insist on calling them that) to do that for almost twice as long as an MLB regular season schedule, you're creating a situation where guys pretty much HAVE TO use drugs to get through it. That's why wrestlers keep dying young. When Vince says "Hey, we have a wellness policy, we suspend them when they use drugs, we care about our workers' health!", he is insulting everybody's intelligence.
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Post by wwefan78 on Sept 15, 2010 15:32:55 GMT -5
About damn time..It's silly that WWE treats wrestlers as employees when it comes to certain stuff but insists on classifying them as independent contractors. Eather they give them all the benefits of an employee or treat them as REAL independent contractors allowing them to work for any promotion and pursue any outside interests without restrictions. You can't have it both ways, Vince and it's coming back to bite you in the ass..
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Sept 15, 2010 16:07:42 GMT -5
I'll call it right now. This won't go anywhere. I could be wrong but WWE is going to fight this with everything they got because if they have to classify their talent as employees they will take one of the biggest money loss hits ever. Agreed. Sorry about delving a bit into a taboo topic, but this *IS* politically motivated. WWE will stall until the elections are over, then this whole thing will quietly die, since the political motivations behind it will be gone, and most of the mainstream public/media couldn't give a shit less how the WWE classifies its wrestlers. TNA, for the most part, actually treats their wrestlers like independent contractors, so I don't think this would affect them all that much on the (incredibly slim) chance this actually does go somewhere. They may lose a little bit of the control they've established over the past few years, but I seriously doubt it'll affect them all that much. WWE, on the other hand, would be pretty much screwed.
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Post by Brian Suntan on Sept 15, 2010 16:22:48 GMT -5
I have absolutely no idea why anyone would think this would be great for the industry.
Ensuring a better work environment for wrestlers by crippling the WWE is the most counterproductive thing I can think of. It's not so much biting the hand that feeds, as it is incapacitating it to the point where it may no longer be able to feed you at all.
I don't believe this has any legs to it though.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Sept 15, 2010 16:37:02 GMT -5
I have absolutely no idea why anyone would think this would be great for the industry. Ensuring a better work environment for wrestlers by crippling the WWE is the most counterproductive thing I can think of. It's not so much biting the hand that feeds, as it is incapacitating it to the point where it may no longer be able to feed you at all. I don't believe this has any legs to it though. Everybody wants a better work environment for the wrestlers. And WWE does have ways to actually give it to them, most notably in shorter, rotating schedules for the wrestlers to give them time to rest up. But there's also other ways too. The problem is that Vince won't give it to them. Not can't. Won't. The problem is that, assuming that this were something more than a politically motivated stunt, politicans want to FORCE vince to give it to them, and if Vince is forced to do so through legislation, it'll be done in a manner that will likely cripple the WWE or outright close them down. I support anything that aims to give the wrestlers a better work environment. I would fully support the current "investigation" if (a) it actually had some teeth, which it likely doesn't, and (b) if it forces Vince to give the wrestlers a better environment in a way that also doesn't put them effectively out of business at the same time. It's basically a catch-22. Vince won't give the wrestlers a better work environment, and since he's got a virtual monopoly on pro wrestling, he's under no real pressure to change his mind, since the wrestlers have no real choice in the matter. Politicans are the only people who can force Vince to do so, but since they know nothing about the wrestling business, they're more likely to do so in the worst possibly way, and crippling the WWE in the process. Wrestlers get fired anyway. Everybody loses.
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Post by corndog on Sept 15, 2010 16:37:45 GMT -5
There are several monetary incentives that are guaranteed to employees in the United States, but not independent contractors. Examples include worker's compensation and unemployment insurance. [/blockquote][/quote] Those are the big two (along with the tax issues). More general "health insurance" certainly isn't required - there's plenty of employers who don't offer their employees that. Worker's compensation, on the other hand, would obviously be insanely expensive and difficult proposition for the WWE, since everyone there gets "injured on the job". The courts would have a great time sorting out what injuries prevent someone from coming to work as a professional wrestler. It boggles the mind how that would play out. A jobber could get a knee injury and the WWE would be on the hook for his salary for years. If this ever actually came down, the WWE would have to re-structure their entire talent philosophy. Maybe bring a few A-list guys on as full-time employees, fire everyone else, and retain a rotating group of guys on a show-by-show basis as their independent contractors (guys would would be free to work for other companies).[/quote] I don't see this actually helping the wrestlers themselves, although it will revive the territory system which could help the independents. The jobbers and midcarders having contracts helps them more than doing independent dates. The main eventers will have it pretty much the same, they will gain Social Security and disability benefits, even though they make alot of money in the future some could possibly use it. I guess the indies would operate as is. Most don't have contracts minus ROH. Which they usually only sign for wrestlers they plan on making champion or building the company around.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Sept 15, 2010 20:41:08 GMT -5
It'll probably never get this far, but just for ****s and giggles let's speculate on the consequences of WWE being investigated vigorously and actually being crippled by it.
Let's say that WWE goes under as a result of that. Everybody's unemployed. That's bad.
Let's say that there are suddenly a lot of fans who want their wrestling fix and don't have WWE any more. A certain percentage of them, hopefully over 50%, will turn to TNA or ROH. Perhaps USA and/or SyFy will give one of those two promotions a TV deal in WWE's old time slot, allowing them to reach a bigger audience. That's good.
Let's say that whoever gets this golden opportunity doesn't screw it up with bad booking and nonsensical storylines. They'll be the new WWE, they'll have the money to sign most of the people who lost their jobs with WWE's demise, and that will be good.
But they won't treat their workers like crap, because a message will have been sent:
"Be good to your employees, or we'll come after you like we went after McMahon."
That will be very good for wrestling and for wrestlers.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 15, 2010 20:56:00 GMT -5
It'll probably never get this far, but just for ****s and giggles let's speculate on the consequences of WWE being investigated vigorously and actually being crippled by it. Let's say that WWE goes under as a result of that. Everybody's unemployed. That's bad. Let's say that there are suddenly a lot of fans who want their wrestling fix and don't have WWE any more. A certain percentage of them, hopefully over 50%, will turn to TNA or ROH. Perhaps USA and/or SyFy will give one of those two promotions a TV deal in WWE's old time slot, allowing them to reach a bigger audience. That's good. Let's say that whoever gets this golden opportunity doesn't screw it up with bad booking and nonsensical storylines. They'll be the new WWE, they'll have the money to sign most of the people who lost their jobs with WWE's demise, and that will be good. But they won't treat their workers like crap, because a message will have been sent: "Be good to your employees, or we'll come after you like we went after McMahon." That will be very good for wrestling and for wrestlers. As far fetched as that scenario is, even if that was the exact string of events, that conclusion just wouldn't happen. Only WWE treats their "independent contractors" the way they do. Only WWE as many restrictions and requirements for their "independent contractors" as they do. ROH, TNA, Chikara, etc. etc. all treat their independent contractors as such, they don't put the restrictions of employees on them. As such, any other promoter with half a brain will know certainly that they wouldn't be able to be touched unless they actually have aspirations of doing what WWE did. Only now they'll know how not to do it. The only issue that's at play with WWE is one part of the tax code. They're not going after them for drug abuse, for the schedule or anything else. They're going after them because the independent contractor label is fraudulently being applied. So, if the incredibly unlikely happens and WWE was harmed enough to go under, what would happen is that wrestlers in the industry wouldn't have the largest company around anymore. You might see a spate of new indies pop up, but it wouldn't take their place, and no one is going to give wrestlers half the benefits people are talking about. They'd look to WWE and know now to keep them as independent contractors. Ignore any medical care, certainly don't pay them anything, and all the wrestlers on WWE's roster just have to fend for themselves more. Good for promoters, as they'd have access to a lot of performers with name recognition. Also bad, because they don't have the largest company around to help draw people in by proxy (which they do). Bad overall for wrestlers.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Sept 15, 2010 21:05:12 GMT -5
It'll probably never get this far, but just for ****s and giggles let's speculate on the consequences of WWE being investigated vigorously and actually being crippled by it. Let's say that WWE goes under as a result of that. Everybody's unemployed. That's bad. Let's say that there are suddenly a lot of fans who want their wrestling fix and don't have WWE any more. A certain percentage of them, hopefully over 50%, will turn to TNA or ROH. Perhaps USA and/or SyFy will give one of those two promotions a TV deal in WWE's old time slot, allowing them to reach a bigger audience. That's good. Let's say that whoever gets this golden opportunity doesn't screw it up with bad booking and nonsensical storylines. They'll be the new WWE, they'll have the money to sign most of the people who lost their jobs with WWE's demise, and that will be good. But they won't treat their workers like crap, because a message will have been sent: "Be good to your employees, or we'll come after you like we went after McMahon." That will be very good for wrestling and for wrestlers. As far fetched as that scenario is, even if that was the exact string of events, that conclusion just wouldn't happen. Only WWE treats their "independent contractors" the way they do. Only WWE as many restrictions and requirements for their "independent contractors" as they do. ROH, TNA, Chikara, etc. etc. all treat their independent contractors as such, they don't put the restrictions of employees on them. As such, any other promoter with half a brain will know certainly that they wouldn't be able to be touched unless they actually have aspirations of doing what WWE did. Only now they'll know how not to do it. The only issue that's at play with WWE is one part of the tax code. They're not going after them for drug abuse, for the schedule or anything else. They're going after them because the independent contractor label is fraudulently being applied. So, if the incredibly unlikely happens and WWE was harmed enough to go under, what would happen is that wrestlers in the industry wouldn't have the largest company around anymore. You might see a spate of new indies pop up, but it wouldn't take their place, and no one is going to give wrestlers half the benefits people are talking about. They'd look to WWE and know now to keep them as independent contractors. Ignore any medical care, certainly don't pay them anything, and all the wrestlers on WWE's roster just have to fend for themselves more. Good for promoters, as they'd have access to a lot of performers with name recognition. Also bad, because they don't have the largest company around to help draw people in by proxy (which they do). Bad overall for wrestlers. Hmm, interesting points. Maybe overall and long-term, it would be bad for wrestlers. Still, maybe there'd be a silver lining. If these guys were truly independent contractors at the point rather than independent contractors in name only, they'd have more say in how many shows they worked per year, wouldn't they?
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 15, 2010 21:07:04 GMT -5
That is true, as independent contractors, they could set their own schedule. Of course, they'd also be making a lot less on average, because very few can make as much money in the indys as they can even as a curtain-jerker in the WWE.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,355
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 15, 2010 21:20:40 GMT -5
If this actually goes someplace, this is how I see it going:
The WWE is forced to categorize talents as employees or treat them as actual independent contractors. I imagine that the top talents will get signed to employee contracts, complete with benefits and scheduled time off. Most of the other TV talents will likely be under similar contracts to what TNA talent are signed. That will mean that the WWE will likely have first pick on when they work with them and will have certain confidentiality clauses in effect with their talents.
One thing that I see happening is that there will be more WWE associated indie feds with whom the independent contractors can find outside employment with (which due to the talents likely to appear at those shows will likely pay better than other indie feds). FCW , Lawler's new Memphis fed, Harley Race's World League Wrestling, Booker T's fed and maybe a few more (like OVW again) might bridge the gap in employment and also improve the development of newer talents. It will probably also allow big name talents like CM Punk to work occasionally at ROH, which if they don't overdo it and spend too much money on WWE talent can help their growth as well.
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