How is it *not* the writers'/bookers' fault?

[Citizen Zero]

What it says in the title.

Lately there've been folks saying not to blame the writers (bookers, management, whomever) and that the wrestlers themselves are partly to blame for not being over.

But who hands out the scripts? Who assigns mic time? Who decides how feuds being and end?

What if, after winning KOTR, instead of Steve Austin cutting his famous 3:16 promo, he instead started wearing a goofy robe and crown and was written into a 'losing streak' angle culminating in him losing via count-out to Bret Hart after spraining his ankle?

What if, instead of joining the Nation of Domination and becoming the Rock, Rocky Maivia instead got stuck in some idiotic love triangle storyline where some female performer is interested in him because she thinks he's a virgin?

What if, after Mick Foley turned face, he did nothing but come down to the ring for random midcard matches, smiling all the while?

Heck, what if, at Wrestlemania 3, instead of Hulk Hogan bodyslamming Andre the Giant and beating him cleanly, they knocked each other out of the ring for a double-count out, only for Tunney to come out and restart the match?

So yeah, while charisma and presence are important, at the end of the day a character is inevitably worthless without a good story around him.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Because McMahon (and any other promoter) makes money if wrestlers are considered as expendable as possible, which means that they desperately try to keep alive the myth that wrestlers can only succeed because of their own innate merits and hard work.

So there's this weird halfway system, where they script everything heavily, but refuse to really do what it takes help people succeed (like by giving them acting lessons) so they can take credit for any success, but blame the performer for any failure.

To answer your question for why it's not the writers' fault, though: Because they don't actually get to write anything, and any storylines they have planned out will get changed a million times by people with no attention span.

[Krimzon]

Everything gets filtered through the agents. What the writers hand in could be changed by the agents. It's their fault! I'm talking to you, Arn!

[Cronant]

You can't write mic skills. Or ring talent.

Blaming the writers all the time says that the wrestlers are 100% dependent on them for anything.

Which is bull. And why its the biggest copout used around.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

IMO: Michael McGuillicutty's epic botch last year was 100% his fault and not creative's. Frankly, it had the makings of a great angle on paper - the underdog finds himself on the wrong end of a bunch of bitter guys who got passed over for him.

Instead, it was a total mess where the wrestlers involved showed that they had no clue what they were doing.

Cases like this are really rare, but there are definitely times when creative can't take the blame.

[randomranter]

There are times where it really is the wrestler's fault. McGillicutty is a good example, as mentioned above. And while Bobby Lashley was somewhat over with the crowd, he was nowhere near as over as the WWE wanted him to be. He didn't have enough of the "It" factor to make it in the main event scene no matter how he was booked. Some people do just fall on their face.

There are times when it's the writers'/bookers'/agents' faults. There is not a whole hell of a lot you can do if the powers that be give you a steaming pile of nothing to work with, and if the WWE insists on keeping you down, you're staying down. Kaval and Zack Ryder are pretty good examples of this.

And there are times when it's just wrong place, wrong time. A gimmick that wouldn't have worked 5 years ago may work today, and vice versa. One person may fail completely with a gimmick (through no fault of his own other than the gimmick just didn't fit), while it may fit another person perfectly. Undertaker took what should've been a throwaway gimmick and became one of the most successful wrestlers ever with it. They gave virtually the exact same gimmick and a great buildup to Mordecai, and he fell on his face.

You have to look at each case individually. It's not always the wrestler's fault, but it's not always the writers' fault either. And sometimes s*** just doesn't work out.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

I just don't think any wrestler, regardless of how good their writing is, can be made into a flagship main eventer, especially not in a company like WWE where presence is a must.

In fact, that attitude sometimes works against WWE. I like Swagger and I was glad to see him with a world title, but he hadn't shown me anything that indicated he could potentially be a future "face" of the company, and thus his depush didn't really anger me.

There's charisma, which guys like Daniel Bryan, Christian and Morrison do have, and then there's crossover appeal, which is a kind of presence where you can make yourself appear bigger than life.

Cena, Rock, Austin, Punk, Foley, HHH, Big Show and even Rey Mysterio and Bret Hart despite not being the best talkers, all seem like- to paraphrase a Roger Ebert comment about Hulk Hogan- "like they walked out of the funny pages", which is a great quality for any wrestler to have when one considers the theatrical aspect of it. If the best thing you can say about someome's character is "he comes off like a regular guy", DON'T MAKE HIM YOUR #1 STAR.

[Red Impact]

I don't blame the rank and file writer in creative for much. They can pitch every idea in the world but they have no power whatsoever to get it implemented. You could pitch the best angle ideas ever, and if it doesn't please McMahon then it's not happening, and there are more then enough stories to make me comfortable in that opinion. They don't decide who to push, who to punish, and who to give gimmicks to. They can pitch ideas for certain people, but ultimately it's out of their hands. Even if an idea does get over, if a McMahon doesn't get it or doesn't like it, it'll get scrapped. They don't have the power to be at fault.

Bookers are another matter, in that they actually set the matches so they do have more power. They do deserve blame for stupid things.

There are also times when it is the wrestler's fault. A wrestler can be given an absolutely great angle to work with, and not be good enough to pull it off (Sean O'Haire, anyone?)

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Apr 29, 2011 15:34:22 GMT -5 Red Impact said:

There are also times when it is the wrestler's fault. A wrestler can be given an absolutely great angle to work with, and not be good enough to pull it off (Sean O'Haire, anyone?)

...I think O'Haire is exactly what the OP is talking about. The writers were like, "Hey, we'll make him Piper's protege, that's awesome!" and then they were like, "Oh, Piper should feud with Rikishi, that's awesome!" and then two weeks later they were like, "Wait, why are Piper and Rikishi fighting? I forgot." And then they were like, "Whose stupid idea was it to have Piper and Rikishi feud?"

And then finally they said, "Dude, this O'Haire guy sucks. We teamed him up with PIPER and he couldn't even get over! He must have no charisma or skill."

[deviljatt86]

WWE is like a movie. The script and the director can be horrible, but the actors can make it work, or you could have the best script and directors but the wrong actors would make it a failure. What I am trying to say is that for success, the creative team, the bookers and the wrestlers need to be good, but in the end, the wrestlers deserve slightly more blame than the other two parts of the equation because they are what put the work of the other two parts into action.

[Yami Daimao]

Apr 29, 2011 15:04:14 GMT -5 Cronant said:

You can't write mic skills. Or ring talent.

Blaming the writers all the time says that the wrestlers are 100% dependent on them for anything.

Which is bull. And why its the biggest copout used around.

Granted, but when you clearly DO have mic skills and/or ring talent, then the blame really does fall on the writers/bookers.

Dolph Ziggler has both, and lately, I don't know what the hell they're doing with him. Daniel Bryan has great ring skills, and so-so mic skills, but other than his feud with Miz, they haven't really done anything significant with him. US title? He spent the majority of that time playing the virgin to the Bellas. Zack Ryder, despite have good ring skills, natural charisma, a workable gimmick, and a rising fanbase, has been off TV for too long. Yeah I know, just like everything else popular, people are starting to turn on Ryder quickly, but the guy would make a great mid-card champion, the talent IS there. Wade Barrett goes from being the single most hated heel and legit threat to John Cena (the company's poster boy), while creating a nearly Pro-Cena crowd that hasn't been seen in years, to "leading" a 2nd rate group (as much as I love Slabriel, but Corre is no Nexus) that has been bitched around by Kane/Show. His IC reign has been a complete flop (not his fault), and he's most likely losing it to Kofi who will bring it to RAW now that the US champion (Sheamus) is on Smackdown.

It's not ALL bad though. Jack Swagger slowly seems to be recovering from his rut after being paired with Michael Cole. Alberto Del Rio hasn't really missed a stepped since his debut. John Morrison, despite being yo-yoed, seems to be used more frequently in main events. Sheamus seems to be regaining his edge again.

Point is, the talent is there, yet most of the time they have no idea what to do with them. Once in a while they'll do some real good stuff, but why pay for writers if they can only get the job done 1/4 of the time?

[zeez]

It depends. Sometimes it's the wrestler being given good material to work with and screwing it up, sometimes it's the writers giving the wrestler something terrible to work with and expecting them to make it work, or it can be a combination of the two. You could blame the agents for booking a bad match. You could also throw some blame at Vince. He makes the final say before anything goes foward for TV or PPV. It really is a team effort to make something suck.

[Perpetual Nirvana]

Apr 30, 2011 10:23:25 GMT -5 deviljatt86 said:

WWE is like a movie. The script and the director can be horrible, but the actors can make it work, or you could have the best script and directors but the wrong actors would make it a failure. What I am trying to say is that for success, the creative team, the bookers and the wrestlers need to be good, but in the end, the wrestlers deserve slightly more blame than the other two parts of the equation because they are what put the work of the other two parts into action.

Exactly like a movie. When a movie has bad dialogue I blame the writer. When it has good dialogue that the actor fails to deliver convincingly I blame the actor. When it's bad dialogue and a bad performance I blame both the writer and the actor.

[Red Impact]

Apr 29, 2011 15:57:16 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

Apr 29, 2011 15:34:22 GMT -5 Red Impact said:

There are also times when it is the wrestler's fault. A wrestler can be given an absolutely great angle to work with, and not be good enough to pull it off (Sean O'Haire, anyone?)

...I think O'Haire is exactly what the OP is talking about. The writers were like, "Hey, we'll make him Piper's protege, that's awesome!" and then they were like, "Oh, Piper should feud with Rikishi, that's awesome!" and then two weeks later they were like, "Wait, why are Piper and Rikishi fighting? I forgot." And then they were like, "Whose stupid idea was it to have Piper and Rikishi feud?"

And then finally they said, "Dude, this O'Haire guy sucks. We teamed him up with PIPER and he couldn't even get over! He must have no charisma or skill."

O'Haire was given a series of awesome vignettes that gave him a unique character. He couldn't deliver them live to save his life. That's not the writer's fault.

Then he got injured which ended up being the final nail in the coffin.

[rapidfire187]

Sometimes it IS the wrestler's fault, but the majority of the time I do blame the writers. Some of the things that is booked on WWE television is just so counter intuitive that there's no way it's going to get over. WWE has booked so many losing streak angles, but I can't think of a single one that's gotten anybody over.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Apr 30, 2011 11:26:51 GMT -5 Red Impact said:

Apr 29, 2011 15:57:16 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

O'Haire was given a series of awesome vignettes that gave him a unique character. He couldn't deliver them live to save his life. That's not the writer's fault.

Then he got injured which ended up being the final nail in the coffin.

So, work with him hardcore until he can. Have him rehearse his lines a billion times until he knows them cold. Give him an acting coach so that he improves overall.
Or: KNOW who you're hiring and tailor the gimmick to the individual instead of just throwing someone out there without knowing if he can do it.
Or: Jeez, if you like this character so much, have freakin' AUDITIONS for it, like every other damn TV show in existence.

(and stop having a really depressing way of running business where poorly timed injury ruins someone's career, but that's a different issue.)

The frustrating thing is that the WWE is so motivated to keep this weird value system alive where Success Comes From Hard Work And Innate Talent Here Read Atlas Shrugged If You Fail It's Your Own Fault that it leads to BAD TV. They'd rather let someone crash and burn (to prove that not everyone can make it) than make sure everything works and put on a great show from top to bottom.
And, it leads to these weird paradoxes where a guy is never given a chance, but the higher-ups still blame his abilities and work ethic. I fear Bryan will be fired soon, because "We gave him a title belt and paired him up with hot twins, and he couldn't get over!"

[Red Impact]

Apr 30, 2011 13:49:30 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

Apr 30, 2011 11:26:51 GMT -5 Red Impact said:

Apr 29, 2011 15:57:16 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

O'Haire was given a series of awesome vignettes that gave him a unique character. He couldn't deliver them live to save his life. That's not the writer's fault.

Then he got injured which ended up being the final nail in the coffin.

So, work with him hardcore until he can. Have him rehearse his lines a billion times until he knows them cold. Give him an acting coach so that he improves overall.
Or: KNOW who you're hiring and tailor the gimmick to the individual instead of just throwing someone out there without knowing if he can do it.
Or: Jeez, if you like this character so much, have freakin' AUDITIONS for it, like every other damn TV show in existence.

(and stop having a really depressing way of running business where poorly timed injury ruins someone's career, but that's a different issue.)

It's depressing, but honestly, there's a lot of talent and not many spots for it. Either way, O'Haire had a shot at a gimmick that we're still talking about today, but he wasn't capable of working it. It sucks for him, and it sucks for anyone who could have gotten the gimmick to work, but it is what it is, his promo ability sunk him.

It isn't the ideal solution, that's for sure. But in a business where you have a lot more hopefuls than you have slots, they have no incentive to spend a lot of time or money on everyone, as long as they have a few that do work.

[The Ichi]

Apr 29, 2011 15:31:54 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

I just don't think any wrestler, regardless of how good their writing is, can be made into a flagship main eventer, especially not in a company like WWE where presence is a must.

In fact, that attitude sometimes works against WWE. I like Swagger and I was glad to see him with a world title, but he hadn't shown me anything that indicated he could potentially be a future "face" of the company, and thus his depush didn't really anger me.

There's charisma, which guys like Daniel Bryan, Christian and Morrison do have, and then there's crossover appeal, which is a kind of presence where you can make yourself appear bigger than life.

Cena, Rock, Austin, Punk, Foley, HHH, Big Show and even Rey Mysterio and Bret Hart despite not being the best talkers, all seem like- to paraphrase a Roger Ebert comment about Hulk Hogan- "like they walked out of the funny pages", which is a great quality for any wrestler to have when one considers the theatrical aspect of it. If the best thing you can say about someome's character is "he comes off like a regular guy", DON'T MAKE HIM YOUR #1 STAR.

To be honest I've never felt that Cena has a "larger than life" look to him.

[Crappler El 0 M]

If a talent leaves his or her future completely in creative's hands without giving any suggestions or ideas, then the talent doesn't seem interested in his or her own future in the company. The wrestlers need to better themselves in areas where they need to improve like speaking ability and defining who they are as a character. If a wrestler doesn't really know who he is as a personality, it makes it harder for creative to write and produce for him. Don't sit around and wait on creative to come up with something for you. Come up with something for your self. Find a character within your self that you can project. Once you figure out who you are then creative can figure out how to better utilize you.

[Mozenrath]

Apr 30, 2011 15:21:23 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

Apr 29, 2011 15:31:54 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

I just don't think any wrestler, regardless of how good their writing is, can be made into a flagship main eventer, especially not in a company like WWE where presence is a must.

In fact, that attitude sometimes works against WWE. I like Swagger and I was glad to see him with a world title, but he hadn't shown me anything that indicated he could potentially be a future "face" of the company, and thus his depush didn't really anger me.

There's charisma, which guys like Daniel Bryan, Christian and Morrison do have, and then there's crossover appeal, which is a kind of presence where you can make yourself appear bigger than life.

Cena, Rock, Austin, Punk, Foley, HHH, Big Show and even Rey Mysterio and Bret Hart despite not being the best talkers, all seem like- to paraphrase a Roger Ebert comment about Hulk Hogan- "like they walked out of the funny pages", which is a great quality for any wrestler to have when one considers the theatrical aspect of it. If the best thing you can say about someome's character is "he comes off like a regular guy", DON'T MAKE HIM YOUR #1 STAR.

To be honest I've never felt that Cena has a "larger than life" look to him.

He's built like Donkey Kong, if that helps. Long, tall head, short legs, long arms.