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Post by joebob27 on Mar 25, 2011 2:08:35 GMT -5
Not to pile on about how crappy of a business WCW was. I went to Starrcade '97. This is probably their biggest show ever, if not, their biggest angle ever. We went down for the onsale and stood on line to get great seats, and we did. 3 rows off ringside, you know how much the tickets cost? $100. lol. This is their biggest show ever and they don't know how to price it right. I think ringside cost exactly the same. Now, obviously, from a fan perspective, this was great because WCW shows and Nitros and whatnot were dirt cheap, but c'mon, how could this business ever possibly survive, with what they paid their talent and their lack of house shows and whatnot? The best WM tickets on TM go for 10 times that, and this isn't exactly the greatest or hotest WM of all time. How can you compare any Starrcade to any WrestleMania? WrestleMania, at it's worst, has ALWAYS been a star studded, main stream media spectacle that has grown over the years to become a staple in the entertainment industry. Starrcade was a big end of the year show that, save for maybe 4 or 5 times, was never properly treated as such outside of maybe one match. MAYBE one match. And comparing ticket prices for a Starrcade in 1997 to a WrestleMania in 2011? WAT. Look at the buyrate. This was their biggest show ever. And from the in-arena perspective, they didn't even cash in. Look at their Nitro prices, which were dirt cheap when they were hot and filling the buildings week in and week out, where you had to hit the day-of sales to even get halfway decent seats. And it was like one-price fits all, $20 downstairs, $10 upstairs. You could fill a 15k seat venue and gate $200,000 or less. Totally brutal. They couldn't run a business to save their lives. Left a ton of money on the table. If they were left the entire business like the WWF was, they would have squandered it both creatively and on the business end, where the WWE only botched it creatively. Yeah, they left money on the table, but nothing to that kind of degree.
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Post by Big Evil on Mar 25, 2011 2:26:37 GMT -5
That still doesn't answer how you can compare WCW's biggest PPV which was never really promoted as such in its later years to the media darling that WrestleMania has become and pretty much always has been.
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Post by joebob27 on Mar 25, 2011 2:54:20 GMT -5
That still doesn't answer how you can compare WCW's biggest PPV which was never really promoted as such in its later years to the media darling that WrestleMania has become and pretty much always has been. It's their biggest PPV of the year. Not only is it their biggest PPV of the year, it's a culmination of an angle that was hot as hell for 18 freaking months! From a business perspective, it's a helluva lot bigger show than what's happening next week. It's just Vince understands business and understands how to market his product. WCW was woefully awful at this. They just threw open the doors, I guess because that was their business model in the first place, and they didn't understand how to adapt when they could net some serious dough. I mean, when I think of WCW's business mentality, I think of the Bischoff story where he causes a big scene because he turned a profit. Well, whoop-de-do, how much money did you leave on the table? lol. And then of course they blew the angle up sixteen ways to hell and there wasn't any more money to be drawn from that, thank god for Goldberg, who they then blew up sixteen ways to hell again... at Starrcade. Obviously it was their biggest show of the year, because that's where they FUBAR'd their biggest angles of the year, every year.
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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 25, 2011 6:44:07 GMT -5
I'd like to hear this story. When did WCW pass on killing WWE? seriously? this is a story i got straight from more than one person in the biz when i asked at a signing. i believe its in a couple of wwe dvds ( the it could have gone either way situation) they were blowing wwe out of the water for almost 2 years so why's it sound so far fetched? I don't think it could have happened. WWF dipped for a few years after losing Hogan, Savage, Nash, Hall, Piper etc... The ratings war was always pretty close when WCW was on top. Once WWF built their new stars, they destroyed WCW.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Mar 25, 2011 6:58:29 GMT -5
The question wasn't whether or not WCW buying WWF was feasable (Though I'm also still waiting for this supposed story on how WCW supposedly passed up the opportunity to finish off the WWF). The question was what would have happened had they done it.
By all accounts, WCW was incredibly mismanaged from top to bottom, and often people like Kevin Nash were in charge of the booking despite the obvious conflicts of interest and the fact that they were in it for themselves.
I actually think WCW would have died even more quickly than it did. They already believed that their business model and booking strategies were working (which was reinforced by the fact that they were ahead in the ratings for so long). Buying out their only major competition would have made them feel completely invincible. I think the self-serving booking would have been magnified significantly, the storyline quality would have hit rock bottom, even more money would have been left on the table, and pro wrestling in this country as we know it would have been dead in the water by the time 2000 rolled around.
It's very possible that we'd see a resurgence of the territory system with ROH, TNA, etc. leading the pack. But after seeing WCW so spectacularly squander a golden opportunity and crash and burn so quickly, I doubt any major network would have been willing to give any of them a TV deal. Essentially, pro wrestling in this country would have been set back about 40 years, being relegated to the sideshow/armory/high school gym days with 100 people being considered a "good crowd".
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Post by chaimwitz on Mar 25, 2011 20:50:58 GMT -5
The question wasn't whether or not WCW buying WWF was feasable (Though I'm also still waiting for this supposed story on how WCW supposedly passed up the opportunity to finish off the WWF). The question was what would have happened had they done it. thank you for reading what i actually wrote, some of us let it get away and turned it into something else.
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Post by vajayajayava on Mar 25, 2011 21:08:22 GMT -5
On a side note, it's taken TBS a while to get a new format for their programming. I grew up loving Andy Griffith, Braves baseball, WCW Saturday Night, and old Clint Eastwood and John Wayne westerns, but now in 2011 they've completely transformed into one of the better entertainment networks.
i think a WWE style wrestling show, ran by people with a 21st century vision of the sport, would fit in nicely with shows like My Name is Earl, Family Guy, The Office, and Conan. I mean this seriously.
On topic: I'd like to have seen that alternate reality, however poorly handled it might have been. There was a time when I couldn't stand hearing Schiavone, Zbysko, Bischoff and others spout WCW propaganda about how they were the best, and I feared my beloved WWF going under (even though I grew up loving NWA/WCW too)
that being said, living as a fan on the other side of what actually happened it's kind of disheartening knowing one company and family controls the legacy of the sport and plays it for favorites and who they don't like. and there's a whole generation of kids that have been programed to think of what we love being "sports-entertainment" and wrestling being a dirty word
I'd loved the for the athleticism and old ways of WCW to have existed going into the future
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Post by Robbymac on Mar 25, 2011 21:54:04 GMT -5
Well Vince McMahon wouldn't have died...so he'd still be around looking for some way to make a little money.
So he just starts over...
...think of it this way. A lot of the people involved in WCW at the time of its death got together and put together TNA. You don't think Vince would have started another wrestling company? Maybe he'd go into business with Heyman.
In short...WCW would have still went under, and Vince would STILL be on top of the wrestling food chain in the end.
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Post by Robbymac on Mar 25, 2011 22:10:12 GMT -5
A more detailed look at what I'm talking about.
I'm going to assume that if the WWF had gone out of buisness it would have been a result of WM XIV being a failure. The money spent on Tyson was too much. So what do we have?
Michaels is out...HHH isn't a big star yet, Austin just headlined a company killing show, Rock isn't a big star yet. Foley is already a guy WCW didn't like.
WCW already has a woefully bloated roster, about the only mega star they'd probably take on is Undertaker. Maybe Rock and HHH go too, but they'd never have become big stars due to the WCW model.
Now the other thing to consider is ECW, which at this time (Early 98) is probably at its peak of popularity. The influx of talent could have brought it a TV deal from USA (who now needs programming). This would have been light years better than the deal they got from TNN a year later.
Vince McMahon needs work, and already has a relationship with Heyman. You don't think they hook up? Of course they do. So you have Vince and Heyman running ECW together. Possibly with Austin and other WWF cast offs joining the ECW roster. Vince, a promotional genius, seizes the opportunity as WCW with their now obscenely bloated roster starts to falter by pushing the same old same old.
When WCW goes under in March of 2001, which it would have regardless of the WWF existing or not, the McMahon/Heyman led ECW purchases WCW.
Its a partnership...Vince runs promotion/marketing/etc, Heyman runs booking.
So ECW, in the end, wins the war.
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Objection!
Don Corleone
Objecting just because I can.
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Post by Objection! on Mar 25, 2011 22:14:52 GMT -5
As much of a mark for WCW I am. I honestly think that if WCW took over the WWF, the business would have died. I don't think WCW could have paced themselves like WWF/WWE have been able to.
At the end of the day WCW was fueled by rivalry, if that went...it all would have went.
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Post by Shaun2k5 on Mar 26, 2011 1:18:19 GMT -5
They'd of brought Austin in for the big Goldberg/Austin match and probably had Russo come out and cover Austin in glitter.
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Post by Cam on Mar 26, 2011 6:54:00 GMT -5
WCW never passed on killing the WWF. They never had the chance. Yes, they were dominating. But that means nothing.
That's like saying WWE is passing on the chance to kill TNA at the moment. It's wrong.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Mar 26, 2011 10:53:53 GMT -5
The question wasn't whether or not WCW buying WWF was feasable (Though I'm also still waiting for this supposed story on how WCW supposedly passed up the opportunity to finish off the WWF). The question was what would have happened had they done it. thank you for reading what i actually wrote, some of us let it get away and turned it into something else. Oh hey, there you are! A bunch of us are still waiting to hear about when WCW passed up the opportunity to kill the WWF. Guess you missed all the posts of people wanting to hear about it.
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Post by chaimwitz on Mar 29, 2011 17:47:50 GMT -5
thank you for reading what i actually wrote, some of us let it get away and turned it into something else. Oh hey, there you are! A bunch of us are still waiting to hear about when WCW passed up the opportunity to kill the WWF. Guess you missed all the posts of people wanting to hear about it. so you're doing exactly what i got warned about and nothing's happening? it's called baiting.......
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Yami Daimao
Patti Mayonnaise
Really, really wants to zigazig ah!
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Post by Yami Daimao on Mar 29, 2011 18:04:16 GMT -5
A more detailed look at what I'm talking about. I'm going to assume that if the WWF had gone out of buisness it would have been a result of WM XIV being a failure. The money spent on Tyson was too much. So what do we have? Michaels is out...HHH isn't a big star yet, Austin just headlined a company killing show, Rock isn't a big star yet. Foley is already a guy WCW didn't like. WCW already has a woefully bloated roster, about the only mega star they'd probably take on is Undertaker. Maybe Rock and HHH go too, but they'd never have become big stars due to the WCW model. Now the other thing to consider is ECW, which at this time (Early 98) is probably at its peak of popularity. The influx of talent could have brought it a TV deal from USA (who now needs programming). This would have been light years better than the deal they got from TNN a year later. Vince McMahon needs work, and already has a relationship with Heyman. You don't think they hook up? Of course they do. So you have Vince and Heyman running ECW together. Possibly with Austin and other WWF cast offs joining the ECW roster. Vince, a promotional genius, seizes the opportunity as WCW with their now obscenely bloated roster starts to falter by pushing the same old same old. When WCW goes under in March of 2001, which it would have regardless of the WWF existing or not, the McMahon/Heyman led ECW purchases WCW. Its a partnership...Vince runs promotion/marketing/etc, Heyman runs booking. So ECW, in the end, wins the war. That'd be amazing. Bravo.
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