The Line
Patti Mayonnaise
Real Name: Bumkiss. Stanley Bumkiss.
Peanut Butter & JAAAAAMMMM!
Posts: 36,698
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Post by The Line on Apr 13, 2011 23:40:07 GMT -5
I have two schools of thought on this.
On a professionalism standpoint, I generally fall in line from the rest of you; as long as it's agreed to by the competitors, and neither have a penchant for legit hurting co-workers, then I really have no problem with it, if we're talking professionalism.
However, on the entertainment side, it all has to do with context. If it is a crazy blood feud that has been going on for a while, then yeah, some stiffness can really elevate the intensity. But if the opening match on a show with a crowd of 50 between two guys who have no backstory and it's just 10 minutes of legit punches and chops, I get bored.
I liken it kinda to pro sports in that aspect. You might see two teams from different divisions play a standard game, but when it's two rival teams facing off, fundamentals are replaced with gritty determination, and often times what will come out will be a very exciting, albeit sloppy contest.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 14, 2011 0:37:19 GMT -5
Like Bret Hart said in his book "any idiot can throw a real punch, but it takes a true artist to throw a fake punch and make it look real". Yep, and those screams Bret heard from the dungeon growing up where really howls of laughter from Stu tickling his trainees. But once Stu was in an actual ring with a guy and had the guy's safety in his hands, did he work stiff then? That's the more pertinent question.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Apr 14, 2011 4:23:27 GMT -5
If 2 guys who are comfortable and good working stiff are together,its fine, and often adds a lot to the quality of the match.
Danielson/Morishima in ROH is stiff as hell, and thats an awesome match.
That being said, HBK/Undertaker WM 25 is a lightly worked match and thats a classic. Good storytelling is just good storytelling. But I dont just like stiff for the sake of stiff. Like guys who just throw a thousand kicks to the back.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 14, 2011 13:15:39 GMT -5
Working stiff is always unprofessional; it doesn't matter if people have agreed to it beforehand or not.
I don't necessarily blame the individual workers who decide to do it, but a promoter and environment that encourages it is a problem. Hard kicks aren't as big a problem as head drops, obviously, but it's still more likely to cause an injury than working light.
And it doesn't "add to a match" when guys are stiff, because the enjoyment is totally meta, non-storyline enjoyment. All it does is remind you that the fighting isn't real, because the ENTIRE REASON you enjoy it is that it looks more "real." Once you start thinking in terms of realness, the actual story has lost you.
As for why people enjoy it, sheesh, it's just because wrestlers and wrestling fans are extremely insecure people. Look at the words people use in this thread to describe non-stiff (good) wresting: dance, art, skill. And the words people use to describe stiff wrestling: tough, manly, MMA (christ, it's even the same word we use for boners). Seeing people wail on each other lets you momentarily forget that we're all a bunch of drama nerds. It's just depressing.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Apr 14, 2011 13:59:09 GMT -5
And it doesn't "add to a match" when guys are stiff, because the enjoyment is totally meta, non-storyline enjoyment. All it does is remind you that the fighting isn't real, because the ENTIRE REASON you enjoy it is that it looks more "real." Once you start thinking in terms of realness, the actual story has lost you. All depends on the worker. I doubt anyone was every taken out of a Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi match because the strikes look good (and frankly I can never tell, with a sufficiently talented wrestler, if a kick or strike merely looks real or is actually a harder strike). On the flip side would be an indy guy who just hits hard as a substitute for anything worthwhile.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Apr 14, 2011 15:08:09 GMT -5
Working stiff is always unprofessional; it doesn't matter if people have agreed to it beforehand or not. I don't necessarily blame the individual workers who decide to do it, but a promoter and environment that encourages it is a problem. Hard kicks aren't as big a problem as head drops, obviously, but it's still more likely to cause an injury than working light. And it doesn't "add to a match" when guys are stiff, because the enjoyment is totally meta, non-storyline enjoyment. All it does is remind you that the fighting isn't real, because the ENTIRE REASON you enjoy it is that it looks more "real." Once you start thinking in terms of realness, the actual story has lost you. As for why people enjoy it, sheesh, it's just because wrestlers and wrestling fans are extremely insecure people. Look at the words people use in this thread to describe non-stiff (good) wresting: dance, art, skill. And the words people use to describe stiff wrestling: tough, manly, MMA (christ, it's even the same word we use for boners). Seeing people wail on each other lets you momentarily forget that we're all a bunch of drama nerds. It's just depressing. OR.... Youre entitled to your own opinion, and some of us actually enjoy seeing the likes of Samoa Joe, Low Ki and Bryan Danielson work stiff because they know how to make it work. It adds intensity to the match. Look at Cena's punches. They look absolutely awful. Now watch when KENTA throws an elbow. It looks like it actually connects and you think the character on the opposing end just got rocked by a hard shot. The key to good professional wrestling is making it look like a believable sporting contest. Which is why Michaels/Taker is such a good match, because it flows properly, both guys sell offense believably, and it tells a great story. Similarly, Kobashi/Misawa do the same thing and pummel the crap out of each other, and that match tells a different story. People who enjoy a stiffer style of wrestling done by top level guys rathe rthan some low level douche who just bought himself a pair of MMA gloves and a new pair of all black kickpads from Highspots, arent necessarily begging for wrestling to become worked MMA, because Ive seen worked MMA from Nobuhiko Takada, and Jeff Jarrett, and it always looks like garbage.
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Post by woodface on Apr 14, 2011 16:59:17 GMT -5
Something I've always wondered, what would the term for the opposite of working stiff be? Working light? And what are some examples of "light" workers? I know Bossman was one. El Generico is said to be "light as a feather."
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 14, 2011 19:27:46 GMT -5
Youre entitled to your own opinion, and some of us actually enjoy seeing the likes of Samoa Joe, Low Ki and Bryan Danielson work stiff because they know how to make it work. It adds intensity to the match. Look at Cena's punches. They look absolutely awful. Now watch when KENTA throws an elbow. It looks like it actually connects and you think the character on the opposing end just got rocked by a hard shot. The key to good professional wrestling is making it look like a believable sporting contest. Which is why Michaels/Taker is such a good match, because it flows properly, both guys sell offense believably, and it tells a great story. Similarly, Kobashi/Misawa do the same thing and pummel the crap out of each other, and that match tells a different story. People who enjoy a stiffer style of wrestling done by top level guys rathe rthan some low level douche who just bought himself a pair of MMA gloves and a new pair of all black kickpads from Highspots, arent necessarily begging for wrestling to become worked MMA, because Ive seen worked MMA from Nobuhiko Takada, and Jeff Jarrett, and it always looks like garbage. ....Do you guys really not see the problem of making this point while using Misawa as an example? Obviously, it's not as bad as the head drops, but do you REALLY think Kawada kicking him in the face a billion times had no ill effect on his spine/brain/overall health? If Cena's punches look bad, then it's 75% the fault of the people who can't sell them and 25% the fault of the road agents, who have made the WWE style include shrugging off each other's punches. I still say, if you're thinking in terms of what "looks real," then you're either too-cool-for-school or you're watching guys who can't work, and it's the former more than it's the latter. Enjoying a wrestling match means accepting whatever they present as reality, and to put arbitrary standards on what you'll accept seems silly, ESPECIALLY when it makes things more dangerous for the workers. And that's not a matter of opinion. As wrestling fans, we should want it to be safe first, period.
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Post by Citizen Zero on Apr 14, 2011 19:36:47 GMT -5
Something I've always wondered, what would the term for the opposite of working stiff be? Working light? And what are some examples of "light" workers? I know Bossman was one. El Generico is said to be "light as a feather." Wasn't Bobby Eaton really light?
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Post by Bald Bull on Apr 14, 2011 19:52:41 GMT -5
Youre entitled to your own opinion, and some of us actually enjoy seeing the likes of Samoa Joe, Low Ki and Bryan Danielson work stiff because they know how to make it work. It adds intensity to the match. Look at Cena's punches. They look absolutely awful. Now watch when KENTA throws an elbow. It looks like it actually connects and you think the character on the opposing end just got rocked by a hard shot. The key to good professional wrestling is making it look like a believable sporting contest. Which is why Michaels/Taker is such a good match, because it flows properly, both guys sell offense believably, and it tells a great story. Similarly, Kobashi/Misawa do the same thing and pummel the crap out of each other, and that match tells a different story. People who enjoy a stiffer style of wrestling done by top level guys rathe rthan some low level douche who just bought himself a pair of MMA gloves and a new pair of all black kickpads from Highspots, arent necessarily begging for wrestling to become worked MMA, because Ive seen worked MMA from Nobuhiko Takada, and Jeff Jarrett, and it always looks like garbage. ....Do you guys really not see the problem of making this point while using Misawa as an example? Obviously, it's not as bad as the head drops, but do you REALLY think Kawada kicking him in the face a billion times had no ill effect on his spine/brain/overall health? If Cena's punches look bad, then it's 75% the fault of the people who can't sell them and 25% the fault of the road agents, who have made the WWE style include shrugging off each other's punches. I still say, if you're thinking in terms of what "looks real," then you're either too-cool-for-school or you're watching guys who can't work, and it's the former more than it's the latter. Enjoying a wrestling match means accepting whatever they present as reality, and to put arbitrary standards on what you'll accept seems silly, ESPECIALLY when it makes things more dangerous for the workers. And that's not a matter of opinion. As wrestling fans, we should want it to be safe first, period. Kicks didn't do shit to Misawa's spine.
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Post by jadison on Apr 15, 2011 1:03:10 GMT -5
That is the dumbest shit I've ever seen. Its that stuff that turns me off of Puro, apparently dropping some dude directly on his head unprotected is "awesome" in that culture. I don't mind guys laying in some kicks and forearms once in a while to sell intensity of a feud/match, but don't go full on retard about it.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Apr 15, 2011 5:19:34 GMT -5
Youre entitled to your own opinion, and some of us actually enjoy seeing the likes of Samoa Joe, Low Ki and Bryan Danielson work stiff because they know how to make it work. It adds intensity to the match. Look at Cena's punches. They look absolutely awful. Now watch when KENTA throws an elbow. It looks like it actually connects and you think the character on the opposing end just got rocked by a hard shot. The key to good professional wrestling is making it look like a believable sporting contest. Which is why Michaels/Taker is such a good match, because it flows properly, both guys sell offense believably, and it tells a great story. Similarly, Kobashi/Misawa do the same thing and pummel the crap out of each other, and that match tells a different story. People who enjoy a stiffer style of wrestling done by top level guys rathe rthan some low level douche who just bought himself a pair of MMA gloves and a new pair of all black kickpads from Highspots, arent necessarily begging for wrestling to become worked MMA, because Ive seen worked MMA from Nobuhiko Takada, and Jeff Jarrett, and it always looks like garbage. ....Do you guys really not see the problem of making this point while using Misawa as an example? Obviously, it's not as bad as the head drops, but do you REALLY think Kawada kicking him in the face a billion times had no ill effect on his spine/brain/overall health? If Cena's punches look bad, then it's 75% the fault of the people who can't sell them and 25% the fault of the road agents, who have made the WWE style include shrugging off each other's punches. I still say, if you're thinking in terms of what "looks real," then you're either too-cool-for-school or you're watching guys who can't work, and it's the former more than it's the latter. Enjoying a wrestling match means accepting whatever they present as reality, and to put arbitrary standards on what you'll accept seems silly, ESPECIALLY when it makes things more dangerous for the workers. And that's not a matter of opinion. As wrestling fans, we should want it to be safe first, period. Cena punches look bad because he jumps when he throws them, and he doesnt have an action resembling throwing a good punch. HHH throws great punches. Cena does not. You cant sell a punch that doesnt look like it would hurt. And yeah, some of the ridiculous shit Ive seen Misawa take is the reason his spine went the way it did. And I disagree with accepting whatever they throw out as "reality". The best guys, stiff or not, know how to make a good match believable, and thats the key thing. Whenn you hvae both guys sucking wind or completely lacking in a moveset, it becomes unwatchable. I enjoy seeing stiff strikers like Joe and Low Ki. If you dont, then thats your preference, but dont tell me Im wrong for doing so.
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Post by bitteroldman on Apr 15, 2011 10:31:57 GMT -5
Like Bret Hart said in his book "any idiot can throw a real punch, but it takes a true artist to throw a fake punch and make it look real". Yep, and those screams Bret heard from the dungeon growing up where really howls of laughter from Stu tickling his trainees. That was the old school method of training when kayfabe was still in place. You protected the business by not letting the trainee know that matches were worked until you were certain that they were going to make it through training; it also weeded out those who didn't have the commitment needed. Stu Hart wasn't the only one who stretched trainees; Hogan has often mentioned that Hiro Matsuda broke his leg the first day he trained (although knowing Hogan's lack of veracity makes this claim slightly dubious).
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Apr 15, 2011 16:47:41 GMT -5
Yep, and those screams Bret heard from the dungeon growing up where really howls of laughter from Stu tickling his trainees. That was the old school method of training when kayfabe was still in place. You protected the business by not letting the trainee know that matches were worked until you were certain that they were going to make it through training; it also weeded out those who didn't have the commitment needed. Stu Hart wasn't the only one who stretched trainees; Hogan has often mentioned that Hiro Matsuda broke his leg the first day he trained (although knowing Hogan's lack of veracity makes this claim slightly dubious). Jack and Jerry Brisco both confirmed that. They were the ones who asked Hiro to do it to make sure Hogan would stick around.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Apr 15, 2011 20:56:19 GMT -5
The stiff style seems to have been the standard in Japan, Europe and Puerto Rico: whether it's the result of poor interpretation of American wrestling, or a willful intent to differentiate a national or regional style from the more "theatrical" traditional American style, it made its way to North America through wrestlers who cut their teeth in those regions early on in their careers then came home to one of the major promotions. It came to be viewed as superior because it implied that the wrestler honed his craft by wrestling everywhere. Of course, such noble roots seem to have rotted thoroughly through overuse by guys with no business being in the ring.
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