I don't get the "stiffness = better than" mindset

[Burst]

I see this an awful lot on other wrestling forums and particularly in YouTube videos of indy matches or indy finishers.

For whatever reason, a startling amount of people think that stiffing people automatically makes things better, whether it's Kobashi chopping the hell out of somebody's chest, some indy guy deliberately dropping somebody on their head with a piledriver, or what have you.

At least based on some YouTube comments people apparently think that stiffing makes it more 'legit' and more MMA-ish, somehow, or that REAL MEN stiff their opponents and can take it as well as dish it out. I've also heard there's a handful of indy workers that stiff the hell out of people for no discernible reason other than a seeming inferiority complex.

And then there's Bob Holly, but he's his own can of Alabaman worms.

Any thoughts?

[strykerdarksilence]

A stiff chop or kick, if agreed beforehand can add to match.

But yeah, generally the idea is NOT to hurt your opponent but make it look as if you have.

Honky Tonk Man in a shoot summed it up well by saying it was easier to sell something that didn't hurt than something that did because you react differently to a real shot.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Think of it as the new hardcore. In the 90's, ECW made it trendy to feature weapons over holds; in the 00's, ROH made it trendy to lay into people with chops and kicks. It has a similar "more violence = more legit" mindset.

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

I don't really get it either. The easiest thing in the world is to just go out and beat the hell out of the guy, at least when he's cool with it and beating the hell out of you, too.

The hardcore thing is an apt comparison. It takes no talent to beat each other with chairs, cookie sheets, and garbage cans, and it takes no talent to just hit each other stiff all the time. Yeah, you may have to be tough to be able to hang, but where does the skill come in?

I was at an indie card once and former territory stars Don and Rocky Kernodle were in the crowd. After the 2nd or 3rd match of guys just beating the piss out of each other, they looked at each other, shook their heads, and left.

[Vice honcho room temperature]

People like stuff that looks good. Its easier to make a punch that you actually threw or at least let up only a little then to make a good looking punch that doesn't hurt. Its easier to have guts then talent sometimes

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

Feb 19, 2011 13:02:30 GMT -5 Vice honcho room temperature said:

People like stuff that looks good. Its easier to make a punch that you actually threw or at least let up only a little then to make a good looking punch that doesn't hurt. Its easier to have guts then talent sometimes

Okay, but I think that's part of the problem. Why work at getting better in the ring until I can throw a working punch that looks like a killer when I can take the easier route and just knock the piss out of the guy? True, I'll never get any better and I'm more likely to hurt somebody in the ring, but it's less work for me.

[Apricots And A Pear Tree]

John Cena works stiff all the time.








Ok not really,when was the last time he got a boner in ring anyway?

[doguncle]

The late Johnny Valentine made his reputation out of dishing out (and taking) stiff blows. His legendary feud with Wahoo McDaniel in the Carolinas was a war of stiff blows and psychology.
Stan Hansen was also stiff, but he spent most of his career in Japan. It was also a running joke that Stan was as stiff as he was because he was half-blind and couldn't judge how hard he was hitting.

[Citizen Zero]

I don't get it either.

Wouldn't working stiff be extremely unprofessional?

[strykerdarksilence]

Johnny Valentine and Wahoo essentially beat the crap out of each other in their matches.

[The Ichi]

Something I've always wondered, what would the term for the opposite of working stiff be? Working light? And what are some examples of "light" workers? I know Bossman was one.

[DavidArquette]

I don't mind if the guys have agreed on it before the match and it's give and take. Preferably not the whole match either, just a few spots. It's annoying though when you see a match (indies especially) where one guy is getting his ass kicked and can't really do much about it.

I admit though, in some cases it can be entertaining. Like Public Enemy getting demolished by the Acolytes!

[Corporate H]

Feb 19, 2011 13:25:25 GMT -5 Apricots And A Pear Tree said:

John Cena works stiff all the time.








Ok not really,when was the last time he got a boner in ring anyway?

Remember that time he mixed with Trish Stratus?

[jrcz]

I always gasp when something stiff is going on.

[Andrew is Good]

Stiffness is an anomoly in wrestling. Because, EVERYTHING is supposed to hurt. When wrestler A punches wrestler B in the face, it's supposed to look like it hurts. So, when someone legit punches someone in the face (and accidents happen of course), it takes away the point of the working punch.

Roderick Strong gets critiqued for this. If you're going to throw really stiff chops, and a working punch, it's a bit strange, because why are you now working when you were just doing a bunch of stiff moves.

Some of the best workers are underrated though, and I think it also shows the difference between this era, and eras in the past. I enjoyed listening to Jerry Lynn talking about being in squash matches with really big guys, and they protected him. Big Bossman and Akeem were mentioned specifically. He looked back on the match, and it looked like he was getting murdered, but he never felt a thing. Barbarian and Haku were known for that as well, as was Rikishi and Umaga (Big Kish gets no credit I think, but that guy was incredible and light as a feather). I think with big guys like that, it's can be easier to be light because they have so much strength, they can gently glide someone to the mat instead of breaking their back.

But, as mentioned above, you have your legends like Stan Hanson, Brusier Brody, Kenta Kobashi and others who do work that stiff style. Sometime guys though, they'd be stiff, but wouldn't completely go out of their way to injure of the person, like, break their arm, neck, or whatever. I also watched the Guest Booker with Gary Hart, where he talked about in Texas, guys would leave boot lace marks in the bodies of other people. However, they also had an issue with everyone dying.

Also, main event workers are going to want to work with lighter guys, because they have a lot to lose, and a lot of the company is on their back. Sometimes we make fun of Randy Orton for not liking being stiffed, but he's right. It's not like he hasn't been stiffed before, they through him with Hardcore Holly for the first 6 weeks he was with the company. But, he now has more control over what happens with him and has more stock in him. And I love Ken Anderson, but his mindset is wrong. Accidents happen, but they can also be prevented, like, that chairshot he took, that never should have happened because Jeff didn't take care of him. When Raven hits Dreamer with a chairshot, he takes care of him. When Jarrett hit Angle with a chair shot, they took care of each other with Jarrett throwing it right, and Angle getting his hands up and bumping and all that stuff. But, when Anderson had his back turned, Jeff was responsible for his health, and he f***ed up big time.

[pundabaya]

I think with stiffness it depends, I think if a guy has been trained to work stiff, and always work stiff then so be it, other wrestlers will accept and respect that... its just how that guy works, (as long as its safe)

I seem to remember a shoot interview with the New Age Outlaws, where they said they respected how Bradshaw worked, even though he once legit knocked Road Dogg out twice in a single match. They then said they didn't like working with Terry Funk, because he'd stiff you because he didn't like you, or just because he could.

[Bald Bull]

It's easier to suspend your disbelief when the things that are happening are actually believable.

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

Feb 19, 2011 19:01:36 GMT -5 Bald Bull said:

It's easier to suspend your disbelief when the things that are happening are actually believable.

But again, if the guys can work, then by definition, it looks believable.

Besides, if you're watching 2 guys beat the hell out of each other, there's disbelief to suspend. You're watching 2 guys beat the hell out of each other.

[Bald Bull]

Feb 19, 2011 19:41:47 GMT -5 "Playboy" Don Douglas said:

Feb 19, 2011 19:01:36 GMT -5 Bald Bull said:

It's easier to suspend your disbelief when the things that are happening are actually believable.

But again, if the guys can work, then by definition, it looks believable.

Besides, if you're watching 2 guys beat the hell out of each other, there's disbelief to suspend. You're watching 2 guys beat the hell out of each other.

Working stiff is still working.

[noleafclover1980]

If you wanna see some stiff shots, go on Youtube and look up "Vadermania" there's one with him trading blows w/ Ken Shamrock where he legit damn near knocks him out at just over the 2 minute mark.