"WWE knows what's wrong with it, why not fix it?"

[rnrk supports BLM]

If the mods thing this ought to be merged into the CM Punk "shoot" discussion, that's fine, but I think it's tangental enough to merit its own thread.

Tonight's RAW has kicked off some discussion that's also been said in the past about Styles' and Heyman's "shoots", which is the idea that these guys are pointing out problems with WWE which unquestionably ought to be fixed. I've heard this opinion expressed optimistically ("This is a sign that WWE is acknowledging the problems with the current product, and are working to fix it.") and pessimistically ("This is a sign that WWE knows all our complaints about the product and ignoring them anyway."), as well as seen a lot of comments about how shocking and unexpected it is that these guys would be allowed to "get away" with pointing out these flaws on WWE's own television.

Honestly, I don't think any of the faux-shoots have said anything that's really controversial. At all.

The crux of all of them has been that WWE focuses on sports entertainment over old-school wrestling, and that that's alienating the hardcore fanbase. The thing is, WWE/F's been doing that since the '80s, and they've been fully aware from the beginning that there's going to be a fringe of fans out there who want the "real", undiluted pro wrestling who are going to dislike their product. They're the same sort of fans who voted Hogan vs. Andre at Wrestlemania III the worst match of 1987, and their opinions are about as relevant to what mainstream fans want as they were back then.

When WWE scripts guys who have large followings amongst a small but vocal niche group in pro wrestling fandom to cut promos expressing the opinions of this niche, it's not anything controversial or shocking, it's not telling WWE anything they don't already know, it's just throwing the occasional bone towards our niche, because we do generate at least some revenue. Hell, the main thing that propped up the old ECW as long as it lasted was Heyman's ability to play off this idea that his promotion was "real", hardcore wrestling for wrestling fans as opposed to that slick, polished, commercialized stuff in WWF and WCW.

I liked CM Punk's promo tonight, and I thought it was one of the most effective things he's done in WWE, but this wasn't some heartfelt condemnation of the direction WWE's taken the industry in. It was a very good heel promo that played off of Punk's exceedingly vocal fanbase in order to build him up as a bigger deal, and that's enough for me.

[Deleted]

Honestly, my main problem with WWE's the opposite of the sports entertainment thing - while every now and then you get things like this Punk storyline or Nexus as exceptions, for the most part every single feud is, "Two guys fight. They fight again. And again, and again, and again. Eventually if they're main-eventers or a suitable PPV is coming up there is a gimmick match." I miss actual stories.

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

I find it pretty hard to disagree with that. At the end of the day, Vince is chasing the almighty dollar, and doing a pretty decent job of it in a poor economy. Sure, they could take a few risks here and there to address some of the criticisms people raise, but why take any risks when you're in his position?

[MichaelMartini]

Maybe buyrates and ratings have dipped low enough, and with Cena needing to rest up, maybe they think it's finally time to rock the boat a bit.

[Welfare Willis]

Jun 28, 2011 1:48:14 GMT -5 Mighty Attack Tribble said:

I find it pretty hard to disagree with that. At the end of the day, Vince is chasing the almighty dollar, and doing a pretty decent job of it in a poor economy. Sure, they could take a few risks here and there to address some of the criticisms people raise, but why take any risks when you're in his position?

Agreed. Vince is the captain of a large ship. He doesn't need to make radical changes for a small, but vocal minority like us especially when they're is no major #2 company breathing down his neck.

He's going to do what he thinks can maximize business.

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

Jun 28, 2011 2:21:45 GMT -5 Welfare Willis said:

Jun 28, 2011 1:48:14 GMT -5 Mighty Attack Tribble said:

I find it pretty hard to disagree with that. At the end of the day, Vince is chasing the almighty dollar, and doing a pretty decent job of it in a poor economy. Sure, they could take a few risks here and there to address some of the criticisms people raise, but why take any risks when you're in his position?

Agreed. Vince is the captain of a large ship. He doesn't need to make radical changes for a small, but vocal minority like us especially when they're is no major #2 company breathing down his neck.

He's going to do what he thinks can maximize business.

Bingo. No wrestling company on the planet is even remotely close to putting pressure on the WWE. Until another WCW comes along, or the wrestling business itself stops drawing money from any significant demographic, there really is no motivation for them to change anything.

[Deleted]

Jun 28, 2011 2:31:51 GMT -5 Mighty Attack Tribble said:

Jun 28, 2011 2:21:45 GMT -5 Welfare Willis said:

Agreed. Vince is the captain of a large ship. He doesn't need to make radical changes for a small, but vocal minority like us especially when they're is no major #2 company breathing down his neck.

He's going to do what he thinks can maximize business.

Bingo. No wrestling company on the planet is even remotely close to putting pressure on the WWE. Until another WCW comes along, or the wrestling business itself stops drawing money from any significant demographic, there really is no motivation for them to change anything.

I don't think anyone's asking them to take risks either though. The bare minimum of what people want out of WWE is the basic requirements of a standard television program. Basic storylines with a reason to tune in to the next program and it's rare we're given that. I just want characters with actual storylines. This never ending series of matches between Dolph Ziggler and Kofi Kingston is the very definition of wasted time. The amount of capable wrestlers sitting around collecting dust is embarassing.

I'm not asking for risks, all i ask for is effort. I think at this point just as much is at stake with WWE's lack of confidence in any mid level performer to carry the ball as there would be in taking bold risks like Cena losing to the Nexus and being off TV for a few weeks. I can understand not taking risks for fear of it blowing up in your face and losing money, I can't understand this habit of not trying because you just don't feel like it or have to.

[Deleted]

Jun 28, 2011 2:21:45 GMT -5 Welfare Willis said:

Jun 28, 2011 1:48:14 GMT -5 Mighty Attack Tribble said:

I find it pretty hard to disagree with that. At the end of the day, Vince is chasing the almighty dollar, and doing a pretty decent job of it in a poor economy. Sure, they could take a few risks here and there to address some of the criticisms people raise, but why take any risks when you're in his position?

Agreed. Vince is the captain of a large ship. He doesn't need to make radical changes for a small, but vocal minority like us especially when they're is no major #2 company breathing down his neck.

He's going to do what he thinks can maximize business.

Honestly, I wonder at the "small but vocal minority" bit (not really picking you out...it's a commonly shared sentiment by many).

I think this might have been the case 10 or even 5 years ago, but today I think the amount of "internet fans" just continues to grow as it has ever since people started talking about wrestling online really.

In fact, on occasions in my life in recent years when I just happen to stumble into someone that I realize watches wrestling...it has been extremely common for them to then start talking with me using words like faces, heels, push, jobbing etc. Mind you these aren't people I met on a message board, just random people IRL I come into contact with.

Does that really mean they are the majority? Well no, they aren't. I do think it has gotten pretty significant though, in fact I think I'm being CONSERVATIVE when I say it is 1 in 5 fans. If they aren't one themselves, they probably have a friend that follows wrestling that is. That doesn't mean they have to be the guy that's online bitching about wrestling every day, just that they become just another person that pokes around often online looking at wrestling stuff. Once you're at that point, it's hard to NOT be exposed to plenty of the inner business workings.

Visit almost any wrestling site outside of wwe.com and you'll be hearing plenty of insider terms and information. Of course plenty of the information is inaccurate, rumored, heresay etc...but it is there and it'll be read by more and more people.

Still the minority?, yes. Not a small minority though. Further, this percentage will just continue to grow.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

First, Punk's speech wasn't about "wrestling" over "sports entertainment," it was about how the deck will always be stacked against people who aren't chosen by the higher-ups, no matter how good they are. It was totally different from Heyman's point.


And.... I kind of think a lot of people are further missing the point. This is all to get John Cena over by having him protest Punk's firing. It's proving that the Chosen One isn't out of touch with the struggle of common people. This isn't about fixing some problem, it's about keeping Cena from seeming like he's cool despite obviously being the protected top guy.

[potpie]

Let's not forget though, that there is a whole demographic of casual fans (I know, right? Just casual? ) that only tune in during 'Mania or when they hear something big has happened. These are the people that have "grown out of it" or moved on to UFC. For a man who claims his company is about sports entertainment, he sure doesn't seem to care about the entertainment factor. Us geeks can whine and complain all we want, but it's these fans who kinda need more attention if the company is to keep wrestling current.

[Citizen Zero]

The market for pro-wrestling is shrinking. That much is undeniable.

[Deleted]

I have no problem with the idea of sports entertainment but they are lacking the sports aspect in the product, there just needs fresh ideas in wrestling, thats why segments like Punks and the Nexus debut went down so well cause it was out of the norm. Sorry to be sceptical but Vince can do what he likes he still gets lots of money and he is the no1 promotion unless you count ufc. By the end of MITB Punk will leave he may or maynot come back but thats another matter, but i don't think this promo is a sign that they will change the format of the show or will lead to the Attitude Era 2.0 as i have seen some people say on youtube and maybe some threads in this forum, Cena will most likely win and we will be back to business as susual but i hope I'm wrong and hope that wwe knows they need to freshen up their product.

[N E O G E O B O Y S]

Honestly, I didn't saw any criticism against the product with punk shoot, I saw it more as a criticism to the management, but some guys seems to think that CM PUNK that the WWE sucks and all that

[IMPRESSIVE knightwing1047]

Part of me wants to believe that the "worked-shoots" of Styles, Heyman, and Punk are kind of WWE's way of winking at us, the Hardcore fans, and saying, "We know you're there and we acknowledge it. But, we've got this business to run..."

[Bo Rida]

^^^ Yeah WWE do tend to do something that is designed to appeal to the long-term/hardcore/online fans every now and again in an attempt to keep us (them?) happy.

Not just worked shoots but certain feuds, matches, angles and references.