The State of the Independents

[________ has left the building]

How do feel about the independent scene?

[wrestlinggod13]

Just out of curiosity, how would you define "the independents"? Since the sale to SBC, is ROH still considered to be an independent promotion?

[VenomFang]

How are the independents today different from the old terittory days ? It would seem the business was much healthier back when the territories were going strong.

[Phil Parent]

Somewhat gloomy.

I can see a few problems.

1) Because of the high death rates amongst the talented wrestlers of the 80's and 90's, there will come a time when the great great majority of trainers will not have international experience and have a somewhat spotty skillset to pass down. I like the fact that Storm is training, I like the fact that WWE is looking at making Waltman a trainer, and they should make Regal one. But these guys are not immortal. And their forefathers who train, the Races and Funks and Harts and Rougeaus and Sharkey and Kowalski and Ultimo Dragon and Kotetsu Yamamoto, Masanobu Fuchi etc etc etc...they are not immortal either, as a matter of fact, some great trainers have passed on in recent years.

2) Young athletes now have more possibilities, so if WWE doesn't come calling right away out of college, why bother with an independents career when you can train for MMA, or do your college sport professionally in one of the minor leagues and have better hopes of making a living?

3) The indy scene is very centralized and not healthy AT ALL. Okay, there's lots of action in the American Northeast and in California, fine. But, what's the top fed in Texas and why is it that, honest to god, I can't even name you one, except maybe for Booker T's school-fed and how often does he run, anyway? And that, historically, was a MAJOR territory! How about the biggest fed in the Carolinas? The biggest fed in Tennessee?

Sadly, those promotions are likely to use the same talent pool that is used in the Northeast and in California, not much local talent. Many of these independent workers are in fact national workers that don't have TV exposure because they do work everywhere.

And ROH doesn't count anymore, they are owned by a media corporation and have TV.

[Apricots And A Pear Tree]

Texas has ACW.

[froggyfrog]

Status Quo. It was better 5 years ago.

[kingoftheindies]

It's promising in a few aspects. CZW, PWG, and CHIKARA are decent pay days for indy wrestlers, get decent exposure (I know CZW does very well with distribution in Europe), and all three have connections to Japan/ other international opportunities (Germany and Mexico mainly).

You can also throw Dragon Gate USA into that.

Now it's not great as outside those 4 (and ROH) in terms of exposure, but Jersey All Pro still brings in big names (just not the crowds it used to). MaxPro out of Canada (Scott D'Amore's new promotion) is entertaining and has a partnership with Dragon Gate. FIP and EVOLVE aren't terrible (although FIP has been either ROH or DUSA's feeder for awhile). MECW is starting up again and is getting tv tapings. And VCW has started getting their guys noticed.

So while not great there are places that give today's wrestlers connections to bigger paydays.

My BIG issue is with the wrestling schools. CZW and CHIKARA's schools are both decent and Storm's school is great but doesn't have a set fed to get the guys started at. Harley Race's school has a good reputation but WLW sucks. Also not a big fan of ROH's school at all.

[Mayonnaise]

Jul 5, 2011 21:24:21 GMT -5 Apricots And A Pear Tree said:

Texas has ACW.

Central Texas has ACW. There is nothing in San Antonio (though I think ACW might have run 1 show there), Booker's part time school in Houston and, I haven't heard anything out of PCW in the Dallas area in quite sometime though the school is open.

I guess what I am saying is for a state of our size, to have 1 regular fed that doesn't travel much is disappointing to say the least.

[Alex Shelley]

Jul 5, 2011 21:14:58 GMT -5 Phil Parent said:

Somewhat gloomy.

I can see a few problems.

1) Because of the high death rates amongst the talented wrestlers of the 80's and 90's, there will come a time when the great great majority of trainers will not have international experience and have a somewhat spotty skillset to pass down. I like the fact that Storm is training, I like the fact that WWE is looking at making Waltman a trainer, and they should make Regal one. But these guys are not immortal. And their forefathers who train, the Races and Funks and Harts and Rougeaus and Sharkey and Kowalski and Ultimo Dragon and Kotetsu Yamamoto, Masanobu Fuchi etc etc etc...they are not immortal either, as a matter of fact, some great trainers have passed on in recent years.

2) Young athletes now have more possibilities, so if WWE doesn't come calling right away out of college, why bother with an independents career when you can train for MMA, or do your college sport professionally in one of the minor leagues and have better hopes of making a living?

3) The indy scene is very centralized and not healthy AT ALL. Okay, there's lots of action in the American Northeast and in California, fine. But, what's the top fed in Texas and why is it that, honest to god, I can't even name you one, except maybe for Booker T's school-fed and how often does he run, anyway? And that, historically, was a MAJOR territory! How about the biggest fed in the Carolinas? The biggest fed in Tennessee?

Sadly, those promotions are likely to use the same talent pool that is used in the Northeast and in California, not much local talent. Many of these independent workers are in fact national workers that don't have TV exposure because they do work everywhere.

And ROH doesn't count anymore, they are owned by a media corporation and have TV.

California's a big state. NorCal's indy scene is just like any other area. Southern California's got all the good stuff.

Believe me, NorCal's indies aren't that great. Pretty much every promotion has the exact same roster, and very rarely does it include anybody nationally known. The promotion I go to has Paul London. That's it, and that's only because he's formed a relationship with us. Sometimes he brings his friends from PWG, but they're special attractions, not roster members.

[hotshotalex]

Jul 5, 2011 21:51:03 GMT -5 Mayonnaise said:

Jul 5, 2011 21:24:21 GMT -5 Apricots And A Pear Tree said:

Texas has ACW.

Central Texas has ACW. There is nothing in San Antonio (though I think ACW might have run 1 show there), Booker's part time school in Houston and, I haven't heard anything out of PCW in the Dallas area in quite sometime though the school is open.

I guess what I am saying is for a state of our size, to have 1 regular fed that doesn't travel much is disappointing to say the least.

ACW runs several shows in SA every year.

Just two weeks ago they ran there annual American Joshi Queen of Queen Show.

They are coming back again in August.


SA also has RCW.

[Dragonfly]

Jul 6, 2011 0:14:27 GMT -5 hotshotalex said:

Jul 5, 2011 21:51:03 GMT -5 Mayonnaise said:

Central Texas has ACW. There is nothing in San Antonio (though I think ACW might have run 1 show there), Booker's part time school in Houston and, I haven't heard anything out of PCW in the Dallas area in quite sometime though the school is open.

I guess what I am saying is for a state of our size, to have 1 regular fed that doesn't travel much is disappointing to say the least.

ACW runs several shows in SA every year.

Just two weeks ago they ran there annual American Joshi Queen of Queen Show.

They are coming back again in August.


SA also has RCW.

RCW also apparently has Ray Rowe. You can't go wrong with Ray Rowe.

[Azrael from Outerspace]

I say bright. Chikara will always have it's unique flair and ROH/PWG work well in a tag team effort. In ROH these guys are there to put on great matches while cutting serious promos which could spring board them towards a large pay day. In PWG they get to play around (for lack of a better phrase) and have fun. Then you have the DGUSA which brings a different atmosphere and a place for second tier guys to really shine along with huge current stars of Japan.

It's the ones just under that where it is a bit gloomy. I don't see many break out stars out there, it just seems like the current gen has a strong hold and nobody new (from inside the country) gets a chance to really shine. Hopefully it's just because the current crop is doing well enough but the next 3-5 years will be interesting.

[nisidhe]

I voted "promising" because ROH's recent sale shows that there is money to be made in pro wrestling that's not made by Vince McMahon. It also seems that more and more really talented wrestlers have opted not to sign with WWE or TNA and, instead, are content to ply their trade in the indies. Whether it's because they have a purer take on the craft in general, or whether they're actually being paid amounts that make it worth their while to stay and work on their own terms, remains to be seen.

[Celgress]

Status Quo, imho.

[Deleted]

As far as the top companies go, it's definitely bright. PWG, CHIKARA, ROH, SHIMMER are all drawing their biggest gates right now, and selling out (or coming close to it) their respective venues.

For the low level companies, it's not great, but there's a reason why they're low level. Those who book the top talent and can afford to do so are successful.

[Black Swagger]

Jul 6, 2011 1:21:51 GMT -5 Dragonfly said:

Jul 6, 2011 0:14:27 GMT -5 hotshotalex said:

ACW runs several shows in SA every year.

Just two weeks ago they ran there annual American Joshi Queen of Queen Show.

They are coming back again in August.


SA also has RCW.

RCW also apparently has Ray Rowe. You can't go wrong with Ray Rowe.

Ray Rowe is awesome, he wrestles out here in Pittsburgh at IWC all the time!

[TuneinTokyo]

I really don't watch wrestling at all anymore but I went to an Oaktown Wrestling Association show in Richmond about a week ago and had a great time. My first indy show, went with my dad. Neither of us has been to a live wrestling show since the 80's. We had a great time, I hope these feds continue. Not the greatest wrestling but it was damn sure entertaining.

[J.O.B. Squad]

I think it is very promising in the indy scene,their are alot of good promotions out there that outweigh the bad plus some of them for the price you pay to go to them you get more than you payed for and some even have some somewhat big stars,the one we have here is really awesome,the shows are super cheap and we have got some really big names coming here from ROH and whatnot.

[2CSultan]

I'd say promising with an upgrade to bright once ROH gets back on TV. The kind of exposure that guys can get will make smaller indy shows seem bigger with ROH stars on them.

[johnnyk9]

if they all had money it would've been perfect