saintpat
El Dandy
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Post by saintpat on Sept 5, 2011 21:11:07 GMT -5
How great was he? As a worker, as a character, charisma, etc.
Overrated?
Underrated?
I always thought he was the bomb. He spent so much time in Japan, when he showed up in an American ring he was a rather mythic creature.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Sept 5, 2011 21:12:26 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Doc. I especially loved his tag team with Terry Gordy.
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PrimeTyme
Dennis Stamp
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Post by PrimeTyme on Sept 5, 2011 21:14:22 GMT -5
I've been going through a ton of NWA tapes from the 80's recently, and while he isn't a terrible wrestler by any stretch, I have not enjoyed his work as much as others have hyped him up to be.
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saintpat
El Dandy
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Post by saintpat on Sept 5, 2011 21:44:29 GMT -5
The fact that he went undefeated for 10 years is incredibly amazing.
It's hard to comprehend him never doing the job -- especially as an American in Japan -- for such a long period. Did he refuse to do the job? If so, how did he keep getting booked? Or was he for whatever reason such a huge draw that over time it was decided he was more valuable with the streak?
The fact that he chose to end the streak on ECW -- the one promotion where the majority of fans were probably smarky enough and internet-savvy enough to appreciate the streak -- was amazing.
Did Paul E. offer him a bag full of money? Favor to a friend? Just decided to get it over with? What's the story behind that?
And the fact that he stood up to three Stevie kicks ... AND a DDT ... to finally defeat him, well that's completely awesome.
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Post by moneyman20 on Sept 5, 2011 22:59:35 GMT -5
True Story.
My dad used to work as a ref/ring boy for UWF/Mid South Wrestling when Dr Death used to work there. One night Dr Death, my Dad, a wrestler called "Lolly Dude", and Buddy Landel decided to go get some drinks. As they were talking, two dudes walk up to Dr Death they start cursing and calling Dr Death a "F**" and crap like that. Dr Death calmly tells them to leave them alone and let him buy them a drink. The guys then respond by grabbing his beer and pouring it on his head. My Dad says Dr Death damn near kills these two dudes and he thought they were all going to jail. But the bartender tells the cops what happens and they go on their way. My Dad says that he had never seen anybody in that company who was more legit tough than Dr Death Steve Williams
My first memory of Steve Williams as a fan is of the amazing match he had in Japan against Kenta Kobashi. His tag team match with Johnny Ace against Kenta Kobashi and Misuharu Misawa is one of my top 10 favorite matches of all time as well.
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cherry coloured funk
ALF
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I know that when I wear Ban-Lon, there does appear to be some jiggling...
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Post by cherry coloured funk on Sept 6, 2011 1:17:26 GMT -5
He was a machine. But he did not have the charisma to sustain the rumoured Attitude Era feud with Austin.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 6, 2011 2:01:39 GMT -5
He was, uhhh, rated. He seems to have had more or less the legacy he was entitled to, if not maybe more success in one of the Big 3.
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Post by Big Evil on Sept 6, 2011 2:16:55 GMT -5
Politics killed him in NWA/WCW, a (what turned out to be false) drug bust killed him in ECW, and an injury killed him in WWF. He was pretty much given four big chances with the big 3 over a span of 8 years, and it was just bad luck/stupidity. He was undefeated on American soil for 10 years (between '87 - '97) before he did the job for Raven in January '97, and that was a huuuge deal.
Some other incidents I can think of are things such as:
1. He was scheduled to get a run with the US Title by beating Lex Luger in '89, but there was some sort of incident that basically led to Michael Hayes being the one to take the belt off Luger (for about a month), and Doc left and went to Japan full time.
2. Doc & Gordy came into WCW in '92 under the Bill Watts regime and we're initially booked as unstoppable monsters. But then it became unbelievable. Watts, always a mark for Doc more so than almost anyone else he worked with, basically dropped the ball on MVC (and alot of other things). Gordy grew frustrated, no-showed a match they were supposed to have with the Steiners, and he left the promotion. Around the same time, the Steiners left as well. Doc stayed til around December when he was thrown into a last minute title match with Ron Simmons at Starrcade in which he lost clean. The match had no build, no advertising, no heat, nothing. Doc left, and less than 2 months later, Watts was fired.
3. Doc & Gordy came into ECW separately in 1996. Gordy came in as part of the Raven/Dreamer storyline, while Doc originally came in for a one-off. Heyman got them to talk (apparently they hadn't spoken or teamed in a bit), and they reunited and had a great series of matches with the Eliminators that put the Eliminators over HUUUGE. Gordy got a deal to go to the WWF in late October '96, so Doc split time between ECW & Japan. Shortly after the turn of the year, he came into ECW again, beat Axl Rotten and then immediately challenged Raven to a title match. It was a terrific brawl that ended with Raven being the first man to pin Dr. Death on American Soil in 10 years. The storyline was supposed to be one of those lingering side feuds for Raven that would've picked up more after Barely Legal. Not to mention, Doc was supposed to be a part of Barely Legal somehow. However, in early March, on a flight back from Japan into Philadelphia, he was busted with something like over 200,000 prescription pills of various kinds. This would've been a really, really bad thing, and because of the exposure, Paul had no choice but to cut ties. The PPV was already on shaky ground after the "burning towel incident" and the "Mass Transit Incident", and being associated that a month before the PPV was asking for trouble. It turns out that Doc had legitimate reasons and prescriptions for the pills, and doctor's notes explaining why he was carrying them in mass amounts (due to the constant travel). But at that point, the relationship with ECW was through.
4. He was brought into the WWF as part of Jim Ross' heel turn in '98 or '99. Infact, the Brawl for All tournament was basically supposed to be centered around him winning, getting a big push out of it and becoming the next big challenger for Stone Cold Steve Austin. First round of the Brawl for All, Bart Gunn KO'd Doc and ended up injuring him pretty badly. He had only wrestled a few matches before that as it was for the company, and after that, it was all over for him there.
There were other brief things like when Russo brought him in late '99 to team with Oklahoma as a spoof to JR, but he left after it went from a parody to down right mean. After that he pretty much spent the rest of his career working Japan, save a few spot shows in America (especially after he became ill and travel became difficult).
Doc was definetely a great worker, one of the better big men, and perhaps one of the BEST football players turned pro wrestlers. Bigger star in Japan than in America, that's for sure. But it wasn't like the chances weren't there. Perfect example of "right place, wrong time".
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Post by mcclanahan on Sept 6, 2011 2:44:50 GMT -5
he was amazing and one of my many influences in this buisness
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Post by Big Evil on Sept 6, 2011 2:52:40 GMT -5
he was amazing and one of my many influences in this buisness I <3 other Doc marks. What's your favorite Doc matches?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2011 3:20:46 GMT -5
Lance Storm wrote about Doc a couple of months before he passed away in an article responding to someone asking him who he thought threw the best worked punches. I can't find the article but the gist is Storm said that he met him on a house show in Doc's hometown and that Storm was scheduled to put Doc over. He wasn't too happy at first but was ok with it later, as Doc was a veteran. They met before the match and Doc tells him that he wants to do a couple of punches in the match. Doc then, without warning, throws a worked punch at Lance; Lance was completely taken off guard and said that the punch sounded so loud on impact, looked so real, that he thought that Doc legit threw a haymaker. However, the punch was as light as a feather; Lance was dumbstruck at such an incredible punch, saying that he never saw anything like it before or since.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 6, 2011 4:36:33 GMT -5
Lance Storm wrote about Doc a couple of months before he passed away in an article responding to someone asking him who he thought threw the best worked punches. I can't find the article but the gist is Storm said that he met him on a house show in Doc's hometown and that Storm was scheduled to put Doc over. He wasn't too happy at first but was ok with it later, as Doc was a veteran. They met before the match and Doc tells him that he wants to do a couple of punches in the match. Doc then, without warning, throws a worked punch at Lance; Lance was completely taken off guard and said that the punch sounded so loud on impact, looked so real, that he thought that Doc legit threw a haymaker. However, the punch was as light as a feather; Lance was dumbstruck at such an incredible punch, saying that he never saw anything like it before or since. It was apparently even so good, some of the other wrestlers got pissed off and were ready to stick up for Lance before he told them it was worked and that Doc didn't actually lay him out.
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Post by mcclanahan on Sept 6, 2011 6:11:44 GMT -5
he was amazing and one of my many influences in this buisness I <3 other Doc marks. What's your favorite Doc matches? off the top of my head Williams & Gordy vs the Steiner Brothers in WCW Williams vs Gordy...every time I've seen it Williams vs Kobashi Williams vs Misawa for the AJPW Triple Crown Heavyweight Title that's just off the top of my head, there are many more
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2011 7:39:12 GMT -5
He was undefeated on American soil for 10 years (between '87 - '97) before he did the job for Raven in January '97, and that was a huuuge deal. Some other incidents I can think of are things such as: 2. Doc & Gordy came into WCW in '92 under the Bill Watts regime and we're initially booked as unstoppable monsters. But then it became unbelievable. Watts, always a mark for Doc more so than almost anyone else he worked with, basically dropped the ball on MVC (and alot of other things). Gordy grew frustrated, no-showed a match they were supposed to have with the Steiners, and he left the promotion. Around the same time, the Steiners left as well. Doc stayed til around December when he was thrown into a last minute title match with Ron Simmons at Starrcade in which he lost clean. The match had no build, no advertising, no heat, nothing. Doc left, and less than 2 months later, Watts was fired. So, how was he undefeated on American soil for ten years (87-97) yet loses clean to Ron Simmons in 92?
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 6, 2011 7:58:30 GMT -5
He was undefeated on American soil for 10 years (between '87 - '97) before he did the job for Raven in January '97, and that was a huuuge deal. Some other incidents I can think of are things such as: 2. Doc & Gordy came into WCW in '92 under the Bill Watts regime and we're initially booked as unstoppable monsters. But then it became unbelievable. Watts, always a mark for Doc more so than almost anyone else he worked with, basically dropped the ball on MVC (and alot of other things). Gordy grew frustrated, no-showed a match they were supposed to have with the Steiners, and he left the promotion. Around the same time, the Steiners left as well. Doc stayed til around December when he was thrown into a last minute title match with Ron Simmons at Starrcade in which he lost clean. The match had no build, no advertising, no heat, nothing. Doc left, and less than 2 months later, Watts was fired. So, how was he undefeated on American soil for ten years (87-97) yet loses clean to Ron Simmons in 92? I was confused as well. It's possible this was an event out of the country. That, or they don't count it because it was on a ring mat, and not soil. ;D
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Post by Big Evil on Sept 6, 2011 9:22:09 GMT -5
It wasn't clean, I'm sorry. It was a DQ finish. My bad. I wrote that at 4am.
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Jimmy
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Post by Jimmy on Sept 6, 2011 19:11:15 GMT -5
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"Hollywood" Cactus Matt
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Post by "Hollywood" Cactus Matt on Sept 6, 2011 19:14:22 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Doc. I especially loved his tag team with Terry Gordy. Gordy & Williams vs. the Steiners is my favorite tag-team feud of all time. Incredible matches that could have gone either way any time they faced each other. Brutal action all around; I want to say I remember a series of singles matches and I know Williams/Gordy faced Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton at least once on WCW TV.
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Post by Joe Galt on Sept 6, 2011 20:36:03 GMT -5
That is all for today class.
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Post by wrestlinggod13 on Sept 6, 2011 23:43:02 GMT -5
I love Doc's matches in Japan and his tag work with Gordy in WCW. One of his strong points was that he was an athletic big man who had a sports background and carried himself like a legit badass.
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