Finisher Overkill in Big Matches

[HMARK Center]

Watching some old school stuff recently, I found myself noticing a big difference between now and then: back in the day, there was far less finisher overkill/finisher abuse, even in big title matches, feud blow off matches, etc.

It made me wonder how good or bad a thing it is when matches wind up going down the "let's kick out of each other's finishers" route that was made so popular after Rock vs. Austin.

On the plus side, yes, it can serve to heighten drama. Watch Wrestlemania VII, see Ultimate Warrior kick out of five Savage elbow drops, then Savage even kick out of the Warrior Gorilla slam/splash, both of which factored heavily into the psychology of the match and the characters.

On the negative side, there's the obvious risk of overuse, and eventually making a finisher look weak. However, beyond that, I think it's a risky thing to do in that it often allows too many heels to look too strong.

Not that I think all heels should look weak, mind you: far from it, in fact. However, what about the cheating, sneaky heel? Isn't a huge part of a character like that supposedly that he has to compensate for being weaker/smaller/etc. by being craftier? Why then grant a heel like, using modern examples, mid-2000's Jeff Jarrett in TNA or current Miz in WWE spots where they get to superman their way out of finishers?

What's your take on it?

[FailedGimmick]

It can work when done right. Like when after someone hits it, they're too spent to go for the cover right away, which gives the person who got hit with it time to recover enough to kick out.

I'm more of a fan of matches with lots of attempted finishers that keep on getting blocked or dodged.

[baronmordo]

This has become a huge problem in recent years. It's definitely a problem in the indies, ROH in particular, with a guy like Richards as champ.

[Mozenrath]

Sept 7, 2011 22:35:03 GMT -5 FailedGimmick said:

It can work when done right. Like when after someone hits it, they're too spent to go for the cover right away, which gives the person who got hit with it time to recover enough to kick out.

I'm more of a fan of matches with lots of attempted finishers that keep on getting blocked or dodged.

Yeah, don't kick out, reverse it.

I'm also in favor of stolen finishers being kicked out of. You don't want them to be just as capable of getting a win with the move as the master of it.

[Vice honcho room temperature]

Sept 7, 2011 22:43:16 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

Sept 7, 2011 22:35:03 GMT -5 FailedGimmick said:

It can work when done right. Like when after someone hits it, they're too spent to go for the cover right away, which gives the person who got hit with it time to recover enough to kick out.

I'm more of a fan of matches with lots of attempted finishers that keep on getting blocked or dodged.

Yeah, don't kick out, reverse it.

I'm also in favor of stolen finishers being kicked out of. You don't want them to be just as capable of getting a win with the move as the master of it.

You can always go for the exclamation point where the guy already got the win but he's just adding insult to injury. But that seems more like a storyline thing for a tag match or the middle match in a set of 3 then a big match ending thing.

[Ultimo Chocula]

I'm pretty sick of it. There was a time when every single match on the card had this and it burned me out in no time. I'm all for it in big title matches or a blood feud. For the other matches, either hit the big move, reverse the big move, or sneak in a pinning combo and that should do it.

[Johnny B. Decent]

Well, the root came from AJPW, but that was handled a bit better, but when Johnny Ace went to the WWE, he too his knowledge from there and incorporated into the WWE, plus Indy wrestlers seeing it from there and AJPW, began to copy it, but not as good.

[Threadkiller [Classic]]

I thought there was the beginning of a backlash against finisher abuse at WM this year when the crowd didn't so much as nudge forward in their seats when Taker hit the first Tombstone, because they didn't buy that HHH would be beaten by just one. Ditto with Hunter's first pedigree, and even his second. There was more heat from the crowd behind those pedigrees, but not the kind you'd expect them to have. Of course, those factors may simply have been a byproduct of the crowd knowing it was too early in the match for any of those moments to be the finish, in which case, if you're going to do multiple finishers, use them closer to the end of the match so people actually buy the near-falls. Don't use them as wear-down moves to try and convince the crowd the match has been more grueling/longer than it seems.

Of course, by the end of Taker/HHH, the crowd was eating the finisher abuse right up. I thought that Hunter's tombstone was THE END, which shows you exactly how finisher abuse can work if done right. There's absolutely no way I should have believed that Hunter would go over Taker at WM, killing the streak with Taker's own finisher. But that nearfall damn near gave me a heart attack.

And the way the crowd just EXPLODED when Taker kicked out? Awesome. Not as awesome as when HBK kicked out of the Tombstone the first time at WM25, because it was late enough in the match and clever enough a counter into the Tombstone that everybody bought that the match was over. THAT is another clever way to use finisher abuse. But I didn't like the WMX-7 overkill, even though that's one of my favorite matches ever. I just thought it was too excessive.

Generally, however, finisher abuse doesn't bug me if it's once in a while. It bugs me in every day scenarios, like Orton kicking out of a Zig-Zag on the floor during some random match on Raw, or Edge kicking out of the Swagger Bomb in an unannounced, impromptu PPV match with hardly any heat. But if done correctly, kicking out of finishers can add SO much to a match, especially if those finishers have been well-built and well-protected.

[FUNK_US/BRODUS]

WrestleMania 25 Shawn/Taker was a perfect exercise in how to make finisher kickouts look like a big deal.

Ive noticed it gets overdone on the indies sometimes. I know its weird to say, I take umbrage with indy guys using the Burning Hammer. Kobashi has used it like 7 times.

[AdamAFL was sooooo wrong]

The worst culprits for this IMO are TNA.

I mean you just have to look at the last two Sting/Angle matches. Finisher kick outs should be few and far between so that when someone kicks out of a finisher it's a big deal. Imagine the reaction HBK kicking out of the Tombstone would have got if every opponent Taker had faced prior to that had also kicked out. No-one would've batted an eyelid. But you don't kick out of a Tombstone, least of all at Wrestlemania. That was good psychology. Angle and Sting kicking out of 78 Scorpion Death Drops and Angle Slams respectively is just ridiculous.

[baronmordo]

I don't think your feelins on the Burning Hammer are that weird, BURY_US. That move is way too ugly to throw out on a nightly basis. It should be an absolute desperation, last ditch finish for anybody. It's too legitimately dangerous for it not to be.

[Psy]

King's Road, baby.

[grunt]

Sept 8, 2011 14:14:15 GMT -5 AdamAFL was sooooo wrong said:

Angle and Sting kicking out of 78 Scorpion Death Drops and Angle Slams respectively is just ridiculous.

Then again, both moves aren't (and shouldn't be) finishers per se, nowadays, since both Angle & Sting usually finish their matches with submission moves.

(also it doesn't help that reverse DDTs and Angle Slams are just transition moves that never win any match on the indys, or whenever Orton uses the Slam)

[AdamAFL was sooooo wrong]

Sept 8, 2011 14:44:47 GMT -5 grunt said:

Sept 8, 2011 14:14:15 GMT -5 AdamAFL was sooooo wrong said:

Angle and Sting kicking out of 78 Scorpion Death Drops and Angle Slams respectively is just ridiculous.

Then again, both moves aren't (and shouldn't be) finishers per se, nowadays, since both Angle & Sting usually finish their matches with submission moves.

(also it doesn't help that reverse DDTs and Angle Slams are just transition moves that never win any match on the indys, or whenever Orton uses the Slam)

It was the same for HBK though, lots of people used the Superkick as a general move. Same goes for anyone whose finisher is a powerbomb or something of that ilk. But it was much more rare to see someone kickout of Sweet Chin Music than it is for them to kick out of the Angle Slam.

[Deleted]

Like anything else, when done correctly it can really add to the match, the problem is that 95% of guys have no idea how to properly use it within the context of the match story.

[The Punisher]

I always remember watching WrestleMania VIII and Jake Roberts hitting the Undertaker with two DDTs, and thought that was it - he was never getting up, but then when he sat up I marked so hard.

At the time Jake made the DDT his own so it was inconceivable anyone would kick out of it - Taker's sit up got a massive pop.

[Cronant]

Having weekly TV helps. Nobody really kicks out of finishers on TV, so you can build the fact that its actually a finisher.

[moneyman20]

I have no problem with them doing at a big show like Wrestlemania or Bound for Glory. Other than that it should be done rarely outside of those shows. Some indy companys annoy me to no end with how often they do it. If it's done so much, it's no longer a "Finisher" because it doesn't "Finish" people.

[FUNK_US/BRODUS]

Sept 8, 2011 14:35:56 GMT -5 baronmordo said:

I don't think your feelins on the Burning Hammer are that weird, BURY_US. That move is way too ugly to throw out on a nightly basis. It should be an absolute desperation, last ditch finish for anybody. It's too legitimately dangerous for it not to be.

Exactly right? The fact that Kobashi has used it 7 times in his career makes it look like a billion dollar deal. You would NEVER get a WWE guy using a move that scarcely.

[Drink Up Me Cider]

Agreed, I didn't particularly enjoy the Taker/Trips match because of this exact reason. Even Cena/Punk matches have been like this.

*edit* A great example is Kane and the Tombstone. Granted his knee issues and all (or so I've heard), when he brings that out, you're done son, no kicking out.

There isn't a lot of finishers like that nower days.