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Post by Red Impact on Feb 11, 2012 9:48:43 GMT -5
Whatever point or sympathy I may have had for the father is lost when he brought a firearm into the situation as a form a disciplinary action. Yeah, he shot an inanimate object, but that sets a precedent that can only get worse. What's next? The TV, cellphone, the girl herself? This guy has some serious control and anger management issues. So... because he shot an inanimate object, he's going to shoot her next? Yay for slippery slopes! We know this incident, but like I said, we don't know how they act beyond this incident. All we know is what this guy read in the note, we don't know how they act aside from that. we don't have much context to this, just this one video. Or maybe I just don't see shooting the laptop as this big horrifying thing that others seem to. It's not like he killed her pet, he got rid of a machine in a way that was absolutely certain to get the message to a girl who's at an age that talking is as useful as a squirt gun in a house fire. Or maybe, just maybe he could have donated it instead of making a spectacle of himself online. Such a silly idea...you know...still sticking it to her while doing something good. Then again, maybe I'm just that crazy parent that was brought up by crazy parents that was brought up by crazy parents that didn't punish us by using our belongings as target practice. Instead, we got our things locked up until we stopped being dicks...or we got the belt. Worked out just fine. Then again, I guess that's society today. Oh no, you can't spank your child, but hell yeahs...shoot that laptop! That's some mighty fine parenting right there! That's not for you personally, but for 99% of the people I've seen comment on this video online. Maybe they've tried taking s*** away and the child is still being a dick? According to what Ric said, they've apparently gone through this a few times, deleting the accounts and such, and the daughter just returned to acting like that. So maybe dealing with a rebellious teenage girl isn't always so straight forward as "take it away and she'll change"? Maybe some kids actually need a message told to them in a rather extreme manner before they finally get the point. Maybe raising a teenage girl is not the same thing as being raised by parent's who'd take away things, or being a 20-something who had a psychology class in college. I know everyone here is an absolute expert in raising all kids, from the condemning responses, but maybe there is far more to it then you can diagnose from watching 1 video while sitting behind a computer monitor? Could he have donated it somewhere? Sure he could have, and it might have made a more socially acceptable point. But maybe the whole spectacle making thing actually had some point beyond showing how immature he was. Judging from Orange's update, it may have been what she needed to finally get the point. And this isn't directed solely at you. If you're a parent, you obviously have more authority behind what works for you. But for all of us childless 20-somethings who's only experience is some child psychology courses in college, we really have no place to say what works or doesn't work as a parent.
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 11, 2012 12:27:21 GMT -5
Is there a source that actually says they've gone through several deleted accounts and such? I can't find that information. No, that's what Ric said third hand. It may not be true, I couldn't tell you. But there's also not a source that says that this is only the second thing she's been punished for. Is it because a person is 20-something that they can't have an opinion on raising children? Is it because a person has taken a college psychology course that they can't have an opinion on raising children? If a person gives their thoughts on the situation, does that mean they claimed to be an expert on the topic? You are making a great deal of assumptions. You don't have to have your own children to have experience raising children, some people have had several siblings that they've had to raise. Why give less value to someone's ideas when you assume they don't have the right "qualifications" for having those ideas? You're always allowed an opinion on a subject, that's the benefit of being human. But let's put it this way, I've been watching basketball all my life. It's my favorite sport, but I've never been involved in playing or coaching in the NBA. Oh, I've gone to games, I've watched hundreds of hours throughout my life, but I've never been behind the scenes at a practice or played against Kobe Bryant or anything on that level. Now, if I see a bad NBA player in a restaurant and want to tell him why I think Kobe put 40 points on him the last game, I'm perfectly capable of doing it. I have legs and a voice, it's quite easy. Should that player pay any attention to what this idiot who's never shot the ball on an NBA court or never prepared athletes for a game has to say? f*** no, he shouldn't. Unless you have been completely and totally responsible for the raising of a child, physically, socially and financially, then your critique of the guy's parenting skills holds as much weight as my critique on a player's free throw ability. Your allowed to have your opinion, that doesn't mean it holds weight. As for what I'm assuming, I'm assuming that, knowing that most people who see the video have an opinion and a good portion of them will give it and knowing not everyone who sees the video has a rebellious teenage daughter, that at least some of the people who are criticizing this guy's parenting ability don't, in fact, have teenage daughters that they've had to raise through their rebellious phase. Now, is that an assumption? Absolutely, just like it's your assumption that she learned all of her bad behaviors from her dad. But it's one I feel extremely safe in making. However, if we assume that the girl has done something similar several times before, we could also assume that she learned that behavior from some place, correct? Is it illogical to assume, based on his actions and comments in the video, that the girl learned her immature behavior from her father? I read your professor's quote the last time, so I'll omit it for space. Is it illogical to assume it? Maybe if you don't ignore the fact that peers become as much of a teacher of social behavior as parents as a child gets older. If you ignore the fact that children's behavior is going to be influenced by classmates, then it'd be perfectly logical to assume that every aspect of her bad behavior came from her parents, and none from the types of friends who seemed to approve of her Facebook rant. So when you ask where she learned that behavior, there's several options to me. Could be her parents, sure. Could be school, friends, whatever entertainment outlet she likes, or maybe there's no single source for her attitude at all. You don't learn everything in your mind from your parents, afterall. You developed in a different time, afterall, so the language of your day comes as much from the outside of your home as from the inside. So I think it's a safer assumption to say that her attitude was very likely influenced by her peers in school, rather than trying to peg it solely on the parents. Rebelling against parents is a common thread of growing up, and it happens in kids reared in all parenting types. It's a very common thread in most coming of age stories for that reason, whether they highlight the rebelliousness or not. It's a reason a lot of teenagers identify with Catcher in the Rye, this idea that people around you, parents included, just don't get you. I've known people in bad homes who never rebelled, and I know people who were raised in nurturing homes who did. It's not universal, of course. There are teens who never rebel, but there is truth in the stereotype of the rebellious teenager, the one who doesn't want to listen to their parents or who think their lives are far worse than it is. As for how their relationship is doing, judging by the Orange's link, she seems like she's gotten over it a lot faster than the rest of the internet has.
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Post by lockedontarget on Feb 11, 2012 13:22:44 GMT -5
The idea that "unless you do it yourself, your opinion has no credibility" has been a crappy argument in the past and is a crappy argument now. It's complete BS, and discredits the practices of thought and analysis that we as human beings are capable of. Using that broken logic, we can't critique a film or novel or video game, unless we are in the industry itself. Which is ridiculous. You don't need to be a singer to know when someone is off-key. You don't need to be a football player to notice poor play. You don't need to be a parent to notice bad parenting.
The ability to do something and the ability to see when someone else is doing something wrong or right are two different things. What makes an opinion hold weight isn't some "appeal to authority" logical fallacy, it's the logical support the opinion itself has. Just because someone isn't in the NBA does not mean he is incapable of having a good, reasonable, constructive opinion about someone's play.
Red Impact if you want to be on the side of father, and support your opinion go right ahead. But spare us the tired "let's see you do it better yourself!" fallacy. It's not valid, and a poor way to dismiss other people's opinions. The day people stop falling back on that poor excuse of an argument is the day discourse changes for the better.
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Post by "I'm Batman..." on Feb 11, 2012 13:51:46 GMT -5
20-something college kids that took a psychology course.
LULZ
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 11, 2012 13:55:37 GMT -5
The idea that "unless you do it yourself, your opinion has no credibility" has been a crappy argument in the past and is a crappy argument now. It's complete BS, and discredits the practices of thought and analysis that we as human beings are capable of. Using that broken logic, we can't critique a film or novel or video game, unless we are in the industry itself. Which is ridiculous. You don't need to be a singer to know when someone is off-key. You don't need to be a football player to notice poor play. You don't need to be a parent to notice bad parenting. The ability to do something and the ability to see when someone else is doing something wrong or right are two different things. What makes an opinion hold weight isn't some "appeal to authority" logical fallacy, it's the logical support the opinion itself has. Just because someone isn't in the NBA does not mean he is incapable of having a good, reasonable, constructive opinion about someone's play. Red Impact if you want to be on the side of father, and support your opinion go right ahead. But spare us the tired "let's see you do it better yourself!" fallacy. It's not valid, and a poor way to dismiss other people's opinions. The day people stop falling back on that poor excuse of an argument is the day discourse changes for the better. We're talking about two completely different things here. If your statement is "I think he overreacted" then experience doesn't matter, I'd agree with that. If your statement is "That's not how you parent, this is how you parent," then it does to me. My responses have been directed to statements like "This problem would have been solved if he had just talked to his child" or "She got all her bad behavior from him." I don't think those are fair statements at all to make until you actually have some experience doing it. When it comes to telling someone how to do their job, I think experience matters. When it comes to just liking or not liking something, then it doesn't. I'd also argue that no one here is really that capable of forming a good opinion on this matter because our perspective on this is based entirely on one video from one perspective and any responses and third hand information from that, not allowing us to get any context into the situation. I said before that I didn't think I could make a decision on who was right or wrong with just this, and I stand by it. We don't know if what the father said is true, if what the daughter said is true, if there's more to the story, if there's less to the story, if what the father said about his daughter's response is true, or if this is even real to begin with.
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Post by lockedontarget on Feb 11, 2012 14:25:15 GMT -5
And I'm telling you that yes, you can have a valid opinion on how something should or shouldn't be done even if it's not something you do yourself, if that opinion is based on good reasoning and is supported well. It is a fallacy to suggest that you have to be a parent yourself for your opinion on parenting to have weight, that's just all there is to it.
Not saying that your individual critiques of various arguments here are wrong or invalid, but the blanket statement you made? Yep.
I do not think it is unreasonable to say that responding to your kid whining about you to her friends with a public humiliation, intimidation, and gun violence is crossing some kind of line. I mean, come on, think about what she actually did for a second. Does that really warrant this kind of reaction? The video and the way he presents himself makes me feel like he is just as concerned about taking revenge as he is about making his daughter understand what she did was wrong. It makes me think he wanted to look cool on the internet. And I don't think I need to be a father to think that when disciplining your child the last thing you should be thinking of is "how badass can I look on the internet while I do this?"
What it comes down to is that the girl, while bratty and disrespectful, did the internet equivalent of bitching about her parents to her friends. I have yet to hear one convincing reason explaining how public humiliation and gun violence is a reasonable response to something that is a relatively minor offense.
You're right in that we only have a small amount of information. But all we can do is form our opinions based on the information available. And looking at the information that is available, the information the father himself has gleefully supplied us with, my opinion is that this guy is a pretty lousy father. And it was his choice to make this into a big spectacle so if he paints himself in a bad light, it's on him.
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 11, 2012 15:04:57 GMT -5
I have no problem with someone saying "I think he overreacted." It was an extreme response, there's no denying that. Not knowing his daughter, I can't say if she needed an extreme response, but I can understand if people don't think there's ever a situation where a parent should do what he did.
But we're going to have to agree to disagree on the other part though. I think there's a difference between giving an opinion on a matter and trying to act like an authority on how to do something you've never done, no matter how well reasoned you think your opinion is. I don't care how much research you've done, I don't think someone without training can tell a wrestler how to take a bump, or a someone who's never written a story can tell a writer how to write a story. Likewise, I just don't think a person can say "This is how you deal with a rebellious teenage daughter" if they have no experience in dealing with a rebellious teenage daughter. Saying that he responded poorly? Sure, by all means, that's just being able to look at a situation and make a judgement call. Saying how you would have reacted? But I think people far too often think they know exactly what it means to be in someone else's shoes, when they really have no clue on the matter.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,204
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 11, 2012 18:35:03 GMT -5
People are getting very emotionally involved. Try to remind yourselves, "This is not my kid, not my father, and not my laptop. Why am I getting so damn defensive?"
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Feb 11, 2012 18:44:14 GMT -5
I hope she doesn't think back to this when it's time to decide on taking care of him or putting him in a home.
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Post by Orange on Feb 11, 2012 18:46:51 GMT -5
Again, an update on the situation, the daughter's fine. The dad says she's handling it better than all of the people talking about it, teens get mad, then they move on - no big deal.
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Post by lockedontarget on Feb 11, 2012 20:47:04 GMT -5
Doing something wrong is still doing something wrong even if things turned out okay. I have a problem with a person being celebrated for using gun violence and public humiliation to parent his child. "She's doing okay!" does not excuse him.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Feb 11, 2012 22:35:33 GMT -5
the shit facebook causes is unreal and usually dumb.
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CaptainFall
Samurai Cop
'Fascinating is the word of the day'
Posts: 2,151
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Post by CaptainFall on Feb 12, 2012 5:07:56 GMT -5
Looks like he was looking for an excuse to use his gun.
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BHB
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,778
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Post by BHB on Feb 12, 2012 7:20:48 GMT -5
What teenager enjoys doing chores? What teenager doesn't talk shit about their parents to their friends at some point?
The only difference is that she posted it on facebook, which is one of the most common forms of communicating with friends these days. Was it the best decision on her part? No, but she's 15.
Completely ridiculous behaviour from her father.
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wrasslinmachine
Don Corleone
Savagely protecting the innocent since 1987.
Posts: 1,971
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Post by wrasslinmachine on Feb 12, 2012 8:52:12 GMT -5
People are getting very emotionally involved. Try to remind yourselves, "This is not my kid, not my father, and not my laptop. Why am I getting so damn defensive?" I guarntee these are the people that are more insecure about themselves, so they feel the need to look down on this father. I for one think he did the smart thing by showing his bratty daughter not to do something so stupid again. Parent's worry about being the child's friend and not parent. That is why kids are the way they are today.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Feb 12, 2012 12:52:02 GMT -5
Looks like he was looking for an excuse to use his gun. It doesn't look that way at all.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Feb 12, 2012 13:12:03 GMT -5
I though it was pretty funny but...f***, did he really have to put BULLETS through her laptop?
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