BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Sept 12, 2011 22:36:09 GMT -5
There was that chilling comment by Dave Lagana last year that Vince saw Skip Sheffield as the potential #2 babyface in WWE. I still think Sheffield has potential to be something great, if he ever recovers from his injury.
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Post by kyromax on Sept 12, 2011 22:36:12 GMT -5
Mark Henry
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Post by rapidfire187 on Sept 12, 2011 22:36:39 GMT -5
The point is still valid if you consider guys like Batista, John Cena, Randy Orton, and Brock Lesnar to be less talented than the guys HHH mentioned. All of those guys had to bust their ass in the midcard for years before they finally broke out. The ones I listed above were pushed pretty strongly from the beginning and were all main eventers within a few years.
Now I'm not saying that I believe those guys are less talented or more talented than the smaller ones HHH mentioned...but I don't think there's any way someone can argue that they paid the same amount of dues that the smaller main eventers did.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Sept 12, 2011 22:37:04 GMT -5
There's a large difference between Zeke or Ryan being the non entities they are now and them getting main event pushes.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 12, 2011 22:38:09 GMT -5
In their defense, Bobby Lashley was a decorated amateur wrestler. That is no defense. No defense whatsoever. It is a good defense. Kurt Angle kinda made WWE talent scouts think of signing some strong amateur wrestlers. I think that's what got Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger, Shelton Benjiman, Charlie Haas and many others signed. Though, his physique probably helped get him pushed over say, Shelton Benjiman or Charlie Haas. Cookie cutter would have been a better.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 12, 2011 22:41:34 GMT -5
We are thankfully a far cry from things like HHH and Vince making fun of Masters and Orton being off the gas respectively.
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Post by flatsdomino on Sept 12, 2011 22:57:37 GMT -5
That is no defense. No defense whatsoever. It is a good defense. Kurt Angle kinda made WWE talent scouts think of signing some strong amateur wrestlers. I think that's what got Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger, Shelton Benjiman, Charlie Haas and many others signed. Though, his physique probably helped get him pushed over say, Shelton Benjiman or Charlie Haas. Cookie cutter would have been a better. So to use a Divas analogy, Kurt and Brock are Trish, and Lashley is the scores of models they've trie to make into the "next Trish". Still not a good excuse.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Sept 12, 2011 23:03:15 GMT -5
The thing is they'll always hire from outside because the talent pool is not that deep these days with no other big companies around to develop talent, and there have been huge successes from the "Failed football player/bodybuilder" mold. Rock and Cena for example. It'd be stupid business wise not to at least glance in that avenue.
The only thing is how quickly they get called up.
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Post by diegorivera on Sept 12, 2011 23:27:15 GMT -5
It's worth noting that two of the last indisputably roided up guys to make it to the top were Guerrero and Benoit. Punk's argument assumes every body builder type is someone like Batista, Zeke or Ryan. Plenty of legit talented guys were absolutely ripped and got to go to the top in the WWE. Why Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, and the Rock stayed on top while guys like Masters or Lashley fizzled was either because of legitimate, undeniable talent, great charisma or a combo of both. The muscle heads might be first in line for the chance, but the really talented guys are usually the ones who stick around and get to the top.
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Post by angryfan on Sept 13, 2011 8:29:16 GMT -5
*cough* Bobby Lashley *cough* In their defense, Bobby Lashley was a decorated amateur wrestler. Just to point it out, Bobby Lashley was a decoratred amature wrestler at around 180 pounds, not the 270 and jacked to the moon that WWE hired. I think there's validity to the argument, though not as much as there once was. As for "what abouts" that Trips mentioned, let's see. Rey was an international draw for over a decade before he came to the E, and was uniqe in both his look and his abilities. Yet, even with that, he only became a main eventer after a tragedy. Not really valid in terms of getting a push "by yourself". Micheals and Hart, had the steroid trial never happened, woudl NEVER, and I promise you that, been the main event mainstays that they were. They would have been in the Jake Roberts/Dibiase range, the guys who could main event and be believable, but not the top guy. It has subsided from what it once was, and taht's a good thing, but it's still there. They're varying the main eventers in terms of look and style, and it's something that's desperately needed, but it doesn't solve what I think is the biggest issue for me as a viewer. Everybody I see brought up from developmental in the last few years has looked, worked, talked, and dressed the same. It's become cookie-cutter to the point of absurdity, and that's going to burn them badly in the long run.
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Post by molson5 on Sept 13, 2011 8:34:19 GMT -5
Why shouldn't pro wrestlers be way larger than other people, on average?
I'd like to see more variety - more fat guys, more bodybuilders, more everything, but I love how Mason Ryan existing is "proof" of something evil and sinister. I think some people here would only be happy if every wrestler was 5'9 175.
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Post by ihuntthereforiam on Sept 13, 2011 8:36:34 GMT -5
What about sheamus getting the title after what? Like six months?Oh and Jack swagger's WHC reign.
Remember that?
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Post by rapidfire187 on Sept 13, 2011 8:55:54 GMT -5
We are thankfully a far cry from things like HHH and Vince making fun of Masters and Orton being off the gas respectively. Vince made fun of Orton for being off steroids? When did that happen? Hell, I think Orton looks more muscular over the last few years than he ever did in the past. Though I suspect the overuse of baby oil has something to do with that. Thankfully he's toned that down a little.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Sept 13, 2011 9:19:55 GMT -5
It's not for lack of trying tbh. How else do you explain Big Zeke's Smackdown push.
A few times Vince has thrown a big muscled up hoss only for him to either fail to get over despite the WWE's attempts to put them over more talented guys (Like Big Zeke) or flat out suck (David Otunga, that big guy from a few years back who had one match on Heat against Eugene then was immediately released despite rumours being that Steph wanted him to be a star, Tyson Kidd's manager)
I think if he could, Vince would love the main event to be dominated by muscled up bodybuilders but most of the time, the WWE fans don't accept them anymore. Nobody wants to see a big useless oaf cluttering up the ring anymore which is why most of the dull, bodybuilder types fail to get over.
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Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,224
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Sept 13, 2011 9:21:08 GMT -5
CM Punk is the reason for why it is no longer valid. Does anyone really believe WWE would have signed Jon Moxley or Tyler Black if it hadn't been for CM Punk becoming such a huge success.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Sept 13, 2011 9:25:26 GMT -5
See, I don't see a few of those examples as a big deal. Tyson Kidd's bodyguard for example, he was a bodyguard far away from any meaningful role. Nothing wrong with that. And Otunga is a lackey who's been mocked his entire run thus far.
Even Zeke's push is really minor and he got the plug pulled on him just any short guy would.
I'm talking about guys getting big pushes just on that. Not guys getting hired and given bit roles. I don't see why there's anything wrong with a big guy playing an enforcer because he's a big guy. You need that.
Hell, recently, you could probably name a lot of talented big guys who didn't get the push you'd think they would over those who did. Knox, Gallows, etc.
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Sept 13, 2011 9:31:05 GMT -5
Nobody wants to see a big useless oaf cluttering up the ring anymore which is why most of the dull, bodybuilder types fail to get over. I do, I want to see the big huge muscle or fat wrestlers because they are larger than life. I'd much prefer to watch a Barbarian/Mike Awesome or Earthquake/Big Daddy V crush the average looking Ted Dibiase Jr or Evan Bourne of the wwe world. To me it's just more fun and they do get over if they have some talent and are not lumbered with some ridiculous gimmick.
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Post by Chuckie Finster on Sept 13, 2011 9:34:44 GMT -5
But yeah, pretty weak argument by Punk. Hunter had a good retort, despite not mentioning Chris Jericho, to the surprise of no one. Hunter's retort were all guys who primarily wrestled and got over 10-plus years ago.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Sept 13, 2011 9:37:55 GMT -5
CM Punk is the reason for why it is no longer valid. Does anyone really believe WWE would have signed Jon Moxley or Tyler Black if it hadn't been for CM Punk becoming such a huge success. They would have signed Moxley no matter what. He's like 6'3 and can talk. But yeah, pretty weak argument by Punk. Hunter had a good retort, despite not mentioning Chris Jericho, to the surprise of no one. Hunter's retort were all guys who primarily wrestled and got over 10-plus years ago. Which helps him even further, as 10 years ago Punk would have had a point.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Sept 13, 2011 9:39:41 GMT -5
It's not for lack of trying tbh. How else do you explain Big Zeke's Smackdown push. A few times Vince has thrown a big muscled up hoss only for him to either fail to get over despite the WWE's attempts to put them over more talented guys (Like Big Zeke) or flat out suck (David Otunga, that big guy from a few years back who had one match on Heat against Eugene then was immediately released despite rumours being that Steph wanted him to be a star, Tyson Kidd's manager) I think if he could, Vince would love the main event to be dominated by muscled up bodybuilders but most of the time, the WWE fans don't accept them anymore. Nobody wants to see a big useless oaf cluttering up the ring anymore which is why most of the dull, bodybuilder types fail to get over. I believe that would be Daniel Rodimer. Seriously, all the people she personally vouches for and she picks Rodimer. Thank God she doesn't run Talent Relations.
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