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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 5, 2012 17:22:59 GMT -5
Eh, I have zero issue wth separating both guys' personal woes from their in-ring performances, even if you could argue they've hung around too long as full time wrestlers.
Hogan (who was underrated as a wrestler, yes- not just based on his Japan work, he had some great US matches) and his sex tape and divorce problems are of course going to be prominent in my mind when I think about him, but it doesn't necessarily drown out Hogan/Warrior or Megapowers/Megabucks. Same with Flair being...well, Flair. His 91-93 WWF run is still the thing I mainly associate with him.
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Post by Chardee MacDennis on Sept 5, 2012 19:10:05 GMT -5
Flair is the greatest man to ever step foot in the ring. Promo wise, in ring wise, character wise...the man had it all. Nothing will ever compare to him.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Sept 5, 2012 21:16:02 GMT -5
A lot of people are very judgmental and even mean spirited. I don't really know what else to say about it other than I agree these guys deserve more respect from fans. I think wrestlers in general do, really. Flair hasn't paid taxes in two decades and has thrown countless lives around him into chaos. Hogan let his underage son and his buddies drink and then race his cars on a busy road that could have killed dozens, and resulted in one boy being braindead, which Hogan later said the kid had coming to him. Much respect to what they've done in the ring, but in terms of overall respect, I don't think it's fair to frown upon people losing respect for human beings who commit such acts. Aside from the comment Hogan made regarding Graziano he doesn't deserve the vilification he's received over the crash. And I'm sure it was something he said to make his son feel better, not something he actually believes. Nick Hogan doesn't deserve the hate either. He had a Formula D competition license. Graziano was a 22 year old ex-marine and part of his pit crew. He's not some "boy" that Nick kidnapped and forced to drive with him. He wasn't even wearing a seatbelt while Nick was. If anything, being the older of the two, Graziano should've been more responsible and let his friend race after drinking. It was a stupid move by everyone involved but if he would've been wearing a seatbelt he would've been ok. Nick wasn't hurt because he was wearing one. Really, how careless is it to go racing and not wear a seatbelt? Maybe that's what Hogan was referring to.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2012 21:21:27 GMT -5
If I may add something as well. A lot of smarks often make the comments that Hogan can't do the pure wrestling stuff. If you search his early Japan work he shows that he's not just a 5 move guy and whips out a lot of stuff that you never saw in the States. I saw a match he had in 1981 with Inoki or somebody and the first thing he does is a takedown into an STF. That absolutely blew my mind. He also did more stuff when he was in the AWA and even in the short run in late WCW when he was a loner with the "FUNB" shirt and eventually reverted to Terry Bollea. Guy was busting out power bombs and chokeslams.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,016
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Post by chazraps on Sept 7, 2012 0:21:49 GMT -5
Flair hasn't paid taxes in two decades and has thrown countless lives around him into chaos. Hogan let his underage son and his buddies drink and then race his cars on a busy road that could have killed dozens, and resulted in one boy being braindead, which Hogan later said the kid had coming to him. Much respect to what they've done in the ring, but in terms of overall respect, I don't think it's fair to frown upon people losing respect for human beings who commit such acts. Aside from the comment Hogan made regarding Graziano he doesn't deserve the vilification he's received over the crash. And I'm sure it was something he said to make his son feel better, not something he actually believes. Nick Hogan doesn't deserve the hate either. He had a Formula D competition license. Graziano was a 22 year old ex-marine and part of his pit crew. He's not some "boy" that Nick kidnapped and forced to drive with him. He wasn't even wearing a seatbelt while Nick was. If anything, being the older of the two, Graziano should've been more responsible and let his friend race after drinking. It was a stupid move by everyone involved but if he would've been wearing a seatbelt he would've been ok. Nick wasn't hurt because he was wearing one. Really, how careless is it to go racing and not wear a seatbelt? Maybe that's what Hogan was referring to. #1 Hulk Hogan gave his underage son and his friends alcohol. #2 Hulk Hogan let his son drive his car after he was intoxicated. #3 Nick Hogan willingly drove a car intoxicated. How do both Hogans not deserve ire for that?
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,016
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Post by chazraps on Sept 7, 2012 0:24:22 GMT -5
Flair hasn't paid taxes in two decades and has thrown countless lives around him into chaos. Hogan let his underage son and his buddies drink and then race his cars on a busy road that could have killed dozens, and resulted in one boy being braindead, which Hogan later said the kid had coming to him. Much respect to what they've done in the ring, but in terms of overall respect, I don't think it's fair to frown upon people losing respect for human beings who commit such acts. What 'acts' ? Lets have you display details of your life and that of all immediate family and see from which position these stones are being thrown from. No disrespect but Flair's crap and marriage at Hogan has an idiot son. That doesn't make them a hell of a lot different to the rest of us. My immediate family, including myself, don't go 20 years without paying our taxes, screwing everyone we meet out of money in the process, and don't drink and drive. We happen to be decent human beings.
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Post by jimmyjames on Sept 7, 2012 2:08:53 GMT -5
I think that at a certain point, when your personal life and actions become so over the top, and your repeated actions are so over the top, then you cannot separate the personal from the public, and the two become intertwined. That is what has happened to Ric Flair, however, I do not believe that Hogan is at that point, or anywhere near it.. In fact, I think Hogan has gotten his personal life back in shape. Sadly, the same cannot be said of Flair.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Sept 7, 2012 2:38:08 GMT -5
Aside from the comment Hogan made regarding Graziano he doesn't deserve the vilification he's received over the crash. And I'm sure it was something he said to make his son feel better, not something he actually believes. Nick Hogan doesn't deserve the hate either. He had a Formula D competition license. Graziano was a 22 year old ex-marine and part of his pit crew. He's not some "boy" that Nick kidnapped and forced to drive with him. He wasn't even wearing a seatbelt while Nick was. If anything, being the older of the two, Graziano should've been more responsible and let his friend race after drinking. It was a stupid move by everyone involved but if he would've been wearing a seatbelt he would've been ok. Nick wasn't hurt because he was wearing one. Really, how careless is it to go racing and not wear a seatbelt? Maybe that's what Hogan was referring to. #1 Hulk Hogan gave his underage son and his friends alcohol. #2 Hulk Hogan let his son drive his car after he was intoxicated. #3 Nick Hogan willingly drove a car intoxicated. How do both Hogans not deserve ire for that? They deserve ire sure he also deserves forgiveness.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Sept 7, 2012 6:40:05 GMT -5
Hogan is the most overrated wrestler ever, the Great Kali is a better in ring performer than he ever was. .................... well obviously it's because Khali has a spin kick and a submission hold
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 7, 2012 9:54:02 GMT -5
Guys, enough discussion about the Graziano case and bickering about both guys' personal lives; none of us know every single detail, none of us know what everyone involves had in their minds, and it's secondary to what the main thrust of this thread is, anyway. It's not the end of the world to reference it, but if we start an argument over it this thread will end badly.
The primary focus here is the talent Hogan and Flair had as performers in a pro wrestling setting.
I've been on an old school WWF kick lately and I've really appreciated a lot of what I've seen Hogan do. The guy wasn't the best pure wrestler of his time, but he absolutely could hang and work a sound, solid match by any metric with the greats of his day (Backlund, Bockwinkle, Orndorff, Piper, Inoki, et. al.).
I read a lot of people mention Hogan's work in Japan, then hear some pooh-pooh it by saying "he did so much of the same stuff in every match there"...first off, every wrestler has signature spots, and secondly, I think we really neglect too often that Hogan, Flair, et. al. are guys from a different era.
These guys worked in a time where you weren't seen by the same viewing audience every week working a match. You'd work X number of days a week, but in front of a different crowd in a different town, 90% of the time without TV cameras around.
Because of this, it wasn't necessary to work a million different styles of matches, and repeating spot sequences wasn't a big deal. In fact, even fans who could recognize the repeating still tended to like it: they hadn't seen these guys on TV or live in so long, they were just happy to see them working.
I'm watching Bob Backlund vs. Harley Race in a WWF vs. NWA Champ match from 1981 right now, and it's amazing how into the match the fans are, despite the fact that most of the first half of the match is Backlund working a headlock. Then as soon as ANYTHING happens (like a scoop slam or a running the ropes sequence), the crowd is ready to explode. That was smart working.
I do want to argue a point, though: I don't think it's fair to dismiss the "pure" wrestlers vis a vis the more heavily "entertainment" based guys. Yes, the over the top personalities have made wrestling more popular during it's highest peaks, but I think a good argument can be made that the long term health of the industry is reliant on these "pure" workers. The big, flashy guys who connect with a wider audience and can work are one-in-a-million; spending your time trying to create a new one never really works. In the meantime, you need your best "pure" workers putting on dynamic shows and keeping your product at a high quality level to retain fans.
Plus, I hate the "spot monkey" designation. Too often it comes off as dismissing the talents of genuinely amazing workers (Bryan Danielson, CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Austin Aries, and AJ Styles were all at one point grouped together with "indy spot monkeys" by those who barely watched them), and being so quick to dismiss nearly anything in life isn't very healthy.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Sept 7, 2012 9:59:21 GMT -5
This idea that these guys are caricatures pisses me off...These two are the corner stones of everything we love about pro wrestling...The pops Hogan got against Rock and Flair vs Michaels were insane...We dont ever see that anymore and we wont until Taker does his last rest...We judge so much and look into their personal lives so deeply that we under value how amazing these guys actually were and how much pride it brought to us
The idea that these guys are caricatures pisses me off... These two are the cornerstones of everything we love about pro wrestling... The pops Bruno got against Piper and Superstar Graham vs. Steve Lombardi were insane... Eh OP it happens as new generations come along. Hogan and Flair will be alright in a historical context. However their greatness should never be used to justify the actions that would land other men in prison. If people's negative opinions of your heroes pisses you off blow them off, they are entitled to their opinions and you your heroes.
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