The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Sept 27, 2012 16:04:07 GMT -5
Nolan somehow managed to make {Spoiler}Batman not dieing a swerve. That's...impressive.
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Post by darthobiwan on Sept 27, 2012 16:07:03 GMT -5
I liked all 3 movies but dark knight rises was my favorite. Its not too suprising that avengers made the most money since it had the 3D ticket advantage and people excited to see numberous superheroes together in 1 movie. Im sure if/when they make a justice league movie, in will make more than any spiderman or batman movie as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 16:08:16 GMT -5
His motivation was: Bruce betrayed Ra's. Bruce loves Gotham. Ra's originally was going to destroy Gotham, so i'll finish the job and make you watch it happen.
Bane basically undid everything Bruce fought to change. Criminals were back running the city. Gotham did become what both Ra's and The Joker predicted they'd become once the chips were down. And Bruce was literally back to where he began, in some s*** prison, helpless to save his city.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Sept 27, 2012 16:14:29 GMT -5
Although in the long run, I think Rises will hold up more. There's going to be more adventures within the MCU and those films could surpass or tarnish The Avengers. I disagree. Batman will get rebooted and redone and there will be new actors under the cowl and all sorts. Avengers may get some sub-par sequels, but much like say Burton's Batman or Donner's Superman, when a bad sequel comes along, more people will revere the first one. Nolan's franchise is done, and while people may hold it up for a bit, I suspect more will forget about it to get behind a more fun Batman going in to a big JLA movie than they will hold that film up for decades, where as Avengers will be this big 'first in a franchise film' that can only be bolstered by anything bad that comes after, rather than hurt.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 27, 2012 16:20:10 GMT -5
His motivation was: Bruce betrayed Ra's. Bruce loves Gotham. Ra's originally was going to destroy Gotham, so i'll finish the job and make you watch it happen. Bane basically undid everything Bruce fought to change. Criminals were back running the city. Gotham did become what both Ra's and The Joker predicted they'd become once the chips were down. And Bruce was literally back to where he began, in some s*** prison, helpless to save his city. But then Bane decided "I know I have everything in place, but, meh, I'd rather wait a few months to complete my objective. I'm sure the highly trained ninja I left in prison with absolutely no one to monitor won't escape." There's just not really a good reason to even allow a last day rescue when everything he had to achieve was done pretty early on and there was never any intent to not use the bomb. It's either a startling lack of forethought on Bane and Talia's part (especially considering the construction plan was pretty brilliant), or Nolan decided to give them Bond-villain reasoning.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 16:23:50 GMT -5
I actually disagree with your point on Batman. I think more people will be turned off by a more comic book version as they're accustomed to the darker/serious approach of the Nolan films.
I'm actually looking forward to a new interpretation of the universe. One where Mr. Freeze, Killer Croc and the like can exist.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 27, 2012 16:28:20 GMT -5
Well, the real key is just going to be wait for people to not be accustomed. There will be new fans, and they'll prefer the versions they saw first and grew up with, just like every generation does. You can easily move on from Nolan Batman as long as you try to bring in a new audience to do it. There's going to be those that don't like the approach and who loved the Nolan movies too much to consider seeing a more comic book take, but release a movie or two and the image will be changed again.
It may take a couple of movies to get people accustomed to a new approach, but DC isn't going to sleep on their biggest cash cow. Even an awfully cheesy Batman movie can be counted on for at least $200 million.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 16:33:54 GMT -5
His motivation was: Bruce betrayed Ra's. Bruce loves Gotham. Ra's originally was going to destroy Gotham, so i'll finish the job and make you watch it happen. Bane basically undid everything Bruce fought to change. Criminals were back running the city. Gotham did become what both Ra's and The Joker predicted they'd become once the chips were down. And Bruce was literally back to where he began, in some s*** prison, helpless to save his city. But then Bane decided "I know I have everything in place, but, meh, I'd rather wait a few months to complete my objective. I'm sure the highly trained ninja I left in prison with absolutely no one to monitor won't escape." There's just not really a good reason to even allow a last day rescue when everything he had to achieve was done pretty early on and there was never any intent to not use the bomb. It's either a startling lack of forethought on Bane and Talia's part (especially considering the construction plan was pretty brilliant), or Nolan decided to give them Bond-villain reasoning. He wanted him to suffer. He could've easily blew up Gotham and finished off Bruce but that wasn't his plan. Think about being laid out for months, unable to move and having to watch everything you've built fall into ruin. The five months was apart of some psychological torment. One could also look at it as Bane wanting Batman to get back to Gotham... {Spoiler}Talia did say she wanted Bruce to know it was her that masterminded the whole thing. That's the way I saw it.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by The Ichi on Sept 27, 2012 16:40:35 GMT -5
See, I think the Batman discussion is why it's the better movie. Or maybe everyone has just gotten Avengers discussion out of their system.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Sept 27, 2012 16:46:26 GMT -5
I actually disagree with your point on Batman. I think more people will be turned off by a more comic book version as they're accustomed to the darker/serious approach of the Nolan films. I'm actually looking forward to a new interpretation of the universe. One where Mr. Freeze, Killer Croc and the like can exist. Well, a lot of people said that about the entire Marvel Universe, and then look what Marvel did. If DC can do something even remotely close, and pull it off, Nolan's films wont even last a decade in people's memories imo
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 27, 2012 16:48:25 GMT -5
But then Bane decided "I know I have everything in place, but, meh, I'd rather wait a few months to complete my objective. I'm sure the highly trained ninja I left in prison with absolutely no one to monitor won't escape." There's just not really a good reason to even allow a last day rescue when everything he had to achieve was done pretty early on and there was never any intent to not use the bomb. It's either a startling lack of forethought on Bane and Talia's part (especially considering the construction plan was pretty brilliant), or Nolan decided to give them Bond-villain reasoning. He wanted him to suffer. He could've easily blew up Gotham and finished off Bruce but that wasn't his plan. Think about being laid out for months, unable to move and having to watch everything you've built fall into ruin. The five months was apart of some psychological torment. One could also look at it as Bane wanting Batman to get back to Gotham... {Spoiler}Talia did say she wanted Bruce to know it was her that masterminded the whole thing. That's the way I saw it. So basically {Spoiler}They're bad James Bond villains either way, delaying a plan solely and entirely so the hero has the ability to thwart it, despite having ample opportunity to deal with the hero and achieve all of their goals.
Want Batman to suffer? Blow the city he spent years trying to protect right the hell up while he's forced to watch in prison. Boom, he has a lifetime of guilt and anguish and absolutely no cause to have resolve to get better.
Want him to escape? Have someone from your vast assassin's network actually watching so you know if he has, and maybe aid him just a little so he's not coming back on the very last day.
Want to tell him that the daughter of Ra's Al Ghul was the mastermind? Hey, he's laid up in prison for months and you're a highly trained assassin of the same order that allowed him to sneak into Gotham without anyone noticing. Sneak out, find him, whisper in his ear while he's forced to watch Gotham blow up. There's just no sound logic to it for me behind them waiting. At least Joker had the excuse of being insane, so you could understand if his impossibly complex plans that relied on insane amounts of coincidences were the way they were. But those two are supposed to be highly intelligent, they should have had no problem coming up with a solution once Batman was out of the way. See, I think the Batman discussion is why it's the better movie. Or maybe everyone has just gotten Avengers discussion out of their system. Different types of movies, to be honest. Despite both being superheroes, they're completely different experiences. The popcorn flick will always be talked about less than the serious drama, even if the reason people talk about the drama is to try to explain or cover holes in the story. Of course, people discussing movies don't make them better, hell people will still talk about The Room any time you bring it up.
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MasonK565
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Post by MasonK565 on Sept 27, 2012 16:48:56 GMT -5
Film perspective? TDKR by miles. Financially, The Avengers dominates. TDKR was a better film than The Avengers.
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MasonK565
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Post by MasonK565 on Sept 27, 2012 16:50:20 GMT -5
And I also am one of the few who keeps the opinion that Bruce Wayne dies. Sorry if you all don't agree, it is just an interpretation of mine.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Sept 27, 2012 16:51:44 GMT -5
And I also am one of the few who keeps the opinion that Bruce Wayne dies. Sorry if you all don't agree, it is just an interpretation of mine. I actually thought that was the case until everyone else was saying he lived. There was too much of a dream-like quality to the cafe scene.
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dav
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Post by dav on Sept 27, 2012 16:53:30 GMT -5
{Spoiler}They weren't delaying the plan, the fall of Gotham was the plan. Simply destroying the city from the get go wasn't really what they wanted. They dealt with Batman, threw him down to increase his suffering and were perfectly willing to blow the city up if he seriously threatened them anyway.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 17:04:47 GMT -5
The ending of Rises and the whole film in general felt like Nolan purposely playing with expectations. People talked about him removing the comic book elements in TDK, he adds more comic book elements in Rises. His fight editing was criticized for too many cuts, the fights in Rises are better edited. People hated his ambiguous endings, he goes with a definitive one.
While I liked the ending, there didn't need to be a shot of who was at the cafe.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 27, 2012 17:06:39 GMT -5
{Spoiler} {Spoiler}They weren't delaying the plan, the fall of Gotham was the plan. Simply destroying the city from the get go wasn't really what they wanted. They dealt with Batman, threw him down to increase his suffering and were perfectly willing to blow the city up if he seriously threatened them anyway. I'm pretty sure that that's exactly what they wanted. The end game of their plan was always "Gotham gets blown the f*** up," because they made sure there was no possibility for it not to be blown up, even if the chaos meter went high enough. The bomb wasn't the contingency plan to stop Batman, it was the means to achieve the plan. Ra's wanted Gotham to be destroyed too, he just didn't have a big ass bomb to do it so set out a different way. They had a more efficient means to do it, and just chose not to do it when they had the chance.
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Marvelously Mediocre
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Post by Marvelously Mediocre on Sept 27, 2012 17:10:29 GMT -5
Avengers is a much better film. TDKR was fine but by quite a distance the worst of the series. Whereas I have now seen The Avengers 5 times and still believe it's an absolute classic and one of my favourites - if not my favourite movie of all time. It's clearly already a massive franchise with many films and even tv series but this film's legacy will not be forgotten. (just look at the box office all-time chart)
I agree with those clambering for a less realistic Batman series with Clayface, Mr Freeze etc. To be honest I just want the animated series on the big screen because that's by far the best representation of Batman outside of the comic. Nolan's movies are no doubt good movies but are certainly not superhero movies and don't compare to the Avengers. Even Spider-Man I felt was much better than TDKR.
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dav
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Post by dav on Sept 27, 2012 17:11:39 GMT -5
{Spoiler} {Spoiler}They weren't delaying the plan, the fall of Gotham was the plan. Simply destroying the city from the get go wasn't really what they wanted. They dealt with Batman, threw him down to increase his suffering and were perfectly willing to blow the city up if he seriously threatened them anyway. I'm pretty sure that that's exactly what they wanted. The end game of their plan was always "Gotham gets blown the f*** up," because they made sure there was no possibility for it not to be blown up if the chaos meter went high enough. The bomb wasn't the contingency plan to stop Batman, it was the means to achieve the plan. Ra's wanted Gotham to be destroyed too, he just didn't have a big ass bomb to do it so set out a different way. They had a more efficient means to do it, and just chose not to do it when they had the chance. That's generally what I meant. The delay itself was part of the plan. The original was Ras focusing on the city while Rises was more about 'f*** you Batman' and getting the city was secondary. It was a much more personal issue and Batman suffering for as long and as much as possible was the final intent. They wanted to draw things out, simply blowing it up from the get go wouldn't have done enough damage in their eyes.
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Bang Bang Bart
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Sept 27, 2012 17:13:14 GMT -5
I can say that Avengers has far more quotable moments than Dark Knight Rises, which isn't to say that TDKR doesn't have its share of memorable quotes.
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