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Post by juvijuiceisloose on Jul 6, 2012 23:23:11 GMT -5
I think the problem is women involved either directly or indirectly with the gaming industry is called a phony if she looks anything other than slightly above average looking. Apparently no woman likes or has ever played a video game. To me, it was rampant during E3. So many tweets came across my timeline about how this "bitch", or this "whore", or this, "c-word" knows nothing about gaming. Hell, ask Aisha Tyler about sexism (and racism) in the gaming community. It just seems like no woman is good enough to these people. Nobody would ever accuse Nathan Fillion of pandering to geeks and nerds, right? This seems to only happen with women, IMO. "Ah, she's not really a gamer!" "She's not really a nerd!" "She's just using gaming to further her career"! Honestly that part does have some reasoning behind it. Not that I condone it, but remember Olivia Munn? She 100% belongs to that mold. Seeing a lot of her interviews at E3 during her time at G4 made it painfully clear she knew jack and all about games or really anything geek related. Another possible reason for that is a lot of those geeks saying that stuff are just still pissed off any hot chicks they met in high school turned them down. Again not condoning it, just saying possible reasons for it. Now as for Aisha Tyler, my problem with her at Ubisoft's press conference wasn't that she was a chick. It was that she was a bad host. Not as bad as that scrawny white guy she had to work with, but still, she was a pretty bad host. Yeah, I know Olivia. I'm a big fan and I was referencing her on purpose. Even before she even was on G4, these idiots were saying the exact same things about Morgan Webb. I remember when she did a Maxim shoot and fanboys got all pissy. Like, they called her all types of slut and whore. This only happens to women. There are men who do those same things, but they're not called out on it nearly as much as women are. It doesn't matter if she's a novice or worked in the industry for 10 years.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 6, 2012 23:54:04 GMT -5
People can complain all they want, hell I'll admit I'm kind of tired by it too, if only because it can get really stupid, like that Hitman trailer. Really? Female assassins dressed as nuns in skin-tight leather outfits? REALLY?! That's just so damn stupid! Have you ever played any of the Hitman games? From the fat goon at an orgy in 2, to the BDSM rave in 3, and the drug carnival and most of the missions in Blood Money, it's pretty much the tone of the series since the second installment. To complain about how dumb it is on its own is akin to the outrage Mass Effect got over those scenes in it. Really, most of the complaints seem to be of people lacking context. Like that dumb controversy over the Lara "Rape" thing. Same thing happen in at least 5 games I can name (Syndicate reboot, DNF DLC The Doctor Who Cloned Me, Call of Duty: Black Ops, Condemned: Criminal Origins, and Modern Warfare 1) but since it's a woman, how dare they?!
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 7, 2012 0:04:08 GMT -5
People are talking about it because it is a legit issue. Portrayal of female characters compared to male characters is incredibly unbalanced towards sexualization, women in the industry get disrespected constantly for their gender, and a lot of fans display misogynistic behavior in "gamer culture". That doesn't mean that everyone and everything is sexist, bit it is a very real thing that exists and blankets a lot of how in the industry and culture operates. Talking about these things and taking them to task is the way to increase awareness and work towards improvement. You are seeing more and more articles and discussion surrounding this because a growing number of men AND women are getting tired of what is quite honestly still a juvenile industry in a lot of ways. People will stop complaining about rampant sexism when it's no longer rampant. Pretty much this. The irony of this thread is, bringing it up is only counter-productive if you're tired of hearing about it. Except the point of this thread is that I'm tired of people labeling EVERYTHING sexist if it so much as approaches the subject of women and gaming. And the worst thing is that the best thing for this topic, a good discussion of pros and cons, is impossible because it seems to always boil down to just writing down everything a juvenile and saying "we need to grow up", even though most of the things do the exact opposite. The constant outcries of controversy and being offended make the whole situation worse than it was before, simply because of how big a deal it is, there is not chance to confront it and deal with it, instead going for a "avoid anything and it will cease to exist". Discussing what gaming bring to the table and culture as a whole is a good step. Playing white knight and trying to shame a whole culture and stand on a supposed pedestal of morality is not. Another good step would also be not throwing an entire gender under a bus and acting like men are perfectly acceptable being generalized, sexualized, and victimized cause they're men, so screw them.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jul 7, 2012 0:06:11 GMT -5
People can complain all they want, hell I'll admit I'm kind of tired by it too, if only because it can get really stupid, like that Hitman trailer. Really? Female assassins dressed as nuns in skin-tight leather outfits? REALLY?! That's just so damn stupid! Have you ever played any of the Hitman games? From the fat goon at an orgy in 2, to the BDSM rave in 3, and the drug carnival and most of the missions in Blood Money, it's pretty much the tone of the series since the second installment. To complain about how dumb it is on its own is akin to the outrage Mass Effect got over those scenes in it. Really, most of the complaints seem to be of people lacking context. Like that dumb controversy over the Lara "Rape" thing. Same thing happen in at least 5 games I can name (Syndicate reboot, DNF DLC The Doctor Who Cloned Me, Call of Duty: Black Ops, Condemned: Criminal Origins, and Modern Warfare 1) but since it's a woman, how dare they?! Well the issue with the Lara Croft near rape is that Crystal Dynamics are using it in part to break her down so they can build her up to become the badass she is in all the other Tomb Raider games. The problem with that is, 1) it is like I already said, one of the many instances of the "break the cutie" trope they are using in this game(they seriously are throwing every possible variation of that trope at Lara in this game). 2) I've lost track of how many times a female character was raped or near raped and that leads to them becoming a badass, seriously that is played out. And 3) Crystal Dynamics thinks this, plus all the other crap Lara goes through, will make gamers want to protect her. It isn't to make Lara seem more identifiable, if anything, it is being done to kind of do the exact opposite.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 7, 2012 0:18:49 GMT -5
Have you ever played any of the Hitman games? From the fat goon at an orgy in 2, to the BDSM rave in 3, and the drug carnival and most of the missions in Blood Money, it's pretty much the tone of the series since the second installment. To complain about how dumb it is on its own is akin to the outrage Mass Effect got over those scenes in it. Really, most of the complaints seem to be of people lacking context. Like that dumb controversy over the Lara "Rape" thing. Same thing happen in at least 5 games I can name (Syndicate reboot, DNF DLC The Doctor Who Cloned Me, Call of Duty: Black Ops, Condemned: Criminal Origins, and Modern Warfare 1) but since it's a woman, how dare they?! Well the issue with the Lara Croft near rape is that Crystal Dynamics are using it in part to break her down so they can build her up to become the badass she is in all the other Tomb Raider games. The problem with that is, 1) it is like I already said, one of the many instances of the "break the cutie" trope they are using in this game(they seriously are throwing every possible variation of that trope at Lara in this game). 2) I've lost track of how many times a female character was raped or near raped and that leads to them becoming a badass, seriously that is played out. And 3) Crystal Dynamics thinks this, plus all the other crap Lara goes through, will make gamers want to protect her. It isn't to make Lara seem more identifiable, if anything, it is being done to kind of do the exact opposite. It's not breaking the cutie as more the typical trope of an action type genre. In gaming, we had Nathan Drake in his series, Batman in Arkham Asylum, the main character of Spec Ops: The Line, the Prince of Prince or Persia, and a few others. Not to mention the various movies and TV shows that show accumulated damage on someone and the effects. And again, the whole issue with the "rape" (ie, not rape) is that it's happened to a woman. The same situation (an enemy approach you with thoughts of assault, button prompt on the screen leads to main character to break free and defeat/kill attacker.) has been done before, but it's different cause the character is female. It lied all in the viewer and nothing pointed out in the video. And, as for that protecting thing, that's pretty much every game's point. Most instruction books and back cover of a game usually use the words guide, or protect, or maneuver or whatever word it is to say "you control this person, make sure he doesn't die". Games do sometimes focus on the fail issue (Dead Space series, and some CD based games), but the general idea is to make sure they get from point a to point b in one piece. Really, is seems to all boil down to "Lara's a woman, so you're not allowed to do all that to her", which is honestly worse than whatever Dynamics was accused of. It's the staple of her own genre now, and she's suddenly not allowed to use that?
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jul 7, 2012 1:02:05 GMT -5
Well the issue with the Lara Croft near rape is that Crystal Dynamics are using it in part to break her down so they can build her up to become the badass she is in all the other Tomb Raider games. The problem with that is, 1) it is like I already said, one of the many instances of the "break the cutie" trope they are using in this game(they seriously are throwing every possible variation of that trope at Lara in this game). 2) I've lost track of how many times a female character was raped or near raped and that leads to them becoming a badass, seriously that is played out. And 3) Crystal Dynamics thinks this, plus all the other crap Lara goes through, will make gamers want to protect her. It isn't to make Lara seem more identifiable, if anything, it is being done to kind of do the exact opposite. It's not breaking the cutie as more the typical trope of an action type genre. In gaming, we had Nathan Drake in his series, Batman in Arkham Asylum, the main character of Spec Ops: The Line, the Prince of Prince or Persia, and a few others. Not to mention the various movies and TV shows that show accumulated damage on someone and the effects. And again, the whole issue with the "rape" (ie, not rape) is that it's happened to a woman. The same situation (an enemy approach you with thoughts of assault, button prompt on the screen leads to main character to break free and defeat/kill attacker.) has been done before, but it's different cause the character is female. It lied all in the viewer and nothing pointed out in the video. And, as for that protecting thing, that's pretty much every game's point. Most instruction books and back cover of a game usually use the words guide, or protect, or maneuver or whatever word it is to say "you control this person, make sure he doesn't die". Games do sometimes focus on the fail issue (Dead Space series, and some CD based games), but the general idea is to make sure they get from point a to point b in one piece. Really, is seems to all boil down to "Lara's a woman, so you're not allowed to do all that to her", which is honestly worse than whatever Dynamics was accused of. It's the staple of her own genre now, and she's suddenly not allowed to use that? You must not really be paying attention that much to what they are doing to Lara in this game, then. They are basically straight up torturing Lara and are doing the opposite of what happens to the leads in her genre. You know how Nathan Drake has a really nasty habit of the stuff he's walking on suddenly collapses and he manages to escape serious injury or death by leaping to safety somehow? Yeah, that doesn't happen to Lara in this game. She's not that lucky. Instead, when the stuff she's walking on collapses in this game, it'll look like she's made it to safety, ala Nathan, but then whatever she makes it onto collapses/falls down as well, and thus Lara is subjected to even more damage. All of those male examples you used barely take any damage. The worst physical damage Batman took in the Arkham games, for example, is some cuts and bruises. Nathan took a gun shot wound in the second game(and eventually got better), the Prince from Prince of Persia can f***ing reverse time, so any damage to him is inconsequential. Oh and none of them have been subjected to severe physical and mental drama intentionally by their creators for the sole purpose of changing their character. That is what breaking the cutie does, changing the personality of a character(usually for the worse) by subjecting them to severe physical or mental breakage. It is kind of telling how much crap a character is in for when one of the first things that happens to them once you have control over them is that they get a piece of rebar stabbed through them.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jul 7, 2012 1:09:20 GMT -5
You seem to be conveniently forgetting that interview with a producer of the game where he says all this creepy s*** about how they are using her gender as a way of making the player feel she is weak and needs to be protected by the player holding the controller. He basically suggests that gamers won't identify with a female action hero so instead of making a game where you ARE the hero they made a game where you are protecting the hero because she is a weak woman and men protect the womenfolk right?
A tad hyperbolic perhaps but the reasoning given for the way they are approaching the game has some definately sexist undertones and is pretty disturbing.
As for the actual content itself, taken away from the context of what that guy said? Well, it's debatable. It's not necessarily sexism to tell a story and/or present a female character in the ways that they are doing. It's more how it fits into the greater misuse of females in gaming. One could suggest that it says a lot that when a formally badass action hero is suddenly rebooted into a much more vulnerable character, who is stripped of her power that she used to have as a character, who is sexually assaulted, just so happens to be a female. It's not crazy to suggest that because she is a woman, people are willing to do this to her character over doing it to an established male badass. I don't honestly see Kratos or Marcus Fenix's getting this treatment anytime soon. Even the characters that take a lot of punishment, like Nathan Drake, aren't reduced to such a state of weakness no matter how bad it gets. Guys like him or Batman may get the hell beat out of them, but they aren't reduced to terrified, panicky wrecks either. They never come off as some poor little victim. The situation bears some similarity to the Other M one, where a formally powerful female action hero is stripped of a lot of her power and agency and made more stereotypically "feminine".
It's not so much that telling that kind of story is sexist, it's that the balance isn't there. It's more about trends than individual games. Women get shoehorned into specific roles much more than men do. Of course producer guy came off pretty blatantly sexist and if his attitude reflects the general attitude of the creative team then that's incredibly disappointing.
This is just a reflection of the greater issue of female roles and portrayals in gaming.
And you are not helping the argument by trying to boil it down to "people just don't want anything bad to happen to a woman!" That is intellectually dishonest. People are raising concerns over these various topics because there ARE gender issues at play, because there ARE issues of sexism revolving around them. You can pretend it doesn't exist as much as you like, but there are real problems here and they are worthy of discussion and you'll just have to deal with that. Some of us want this industry and culture to be better than it is.
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Post by DZ: WF Legacy on Jul 7, 2012 1:17:54 GMT -5
I'm probably going to ruffle a few feathers with this post, but this has been a problem I have also noticed and I really wanted to say something about this for a long time. So, here it goes.
This is the current "Tumblr generation" cause with many 20-somethings now. It's not just in gaming, either. It's basically about white knighting every "oppressed" group under the sun in order to come across as open-minded for some form of acceptance amongst your like-minded peers, even if it lacks logic or understanding of how unequal we will always be due to various handicaps we all have. This means taking things out of proportion and looking for reasons to flex your cultural muscle.
This is absolutely a routine issue that's been popping up all the time. It's gotten to the point where I've read long-winded articles getting upset at developers for not including transgender characters in their games. As if that's a relatable issue amongst the target demographic for the game or something. I'm not opposed to something like this being included in a game, but not if it's shoehorned in to appeal to some minority group.
I don't like how most gamers conduct themselves. I can empathize with people calling out your typical gamer as a sexist, ignorant, disrespectful little snot. I do it all the time. I don't even like playing online games that much because of people who act like this, so trust me - I don't like idiots who mistreat women or minority groups at all. And whenever I hear someone use the word "bitch", I tune them out. I'm on your side, girls.
But pushing a little self-important agenda into every facet of society is as tedious as it is obnoxious. It's fake. I've always said this about the issue - pick your battles. Don't go through things with a fine-toothed comb, don't give me shit about "white privilege", don't take stupid non-hateful jokes that seriously. You're basically telling people to feel guilty for being human beings. We ALL make judgment calls about people with or without informed thought. I don't walk down a street at night that's in a bad part of town that's full of stereotypical black thugs. That doesn't make me a racist. Noticing that many females have a tendency to be quite irrational and moody doesn't mean I'm a misogynist - it means I have a pair of eyes, I have experience, and I know how the general person tends to act within the confines of our culture.
I'm an INFP personality type; an emotive observer. I love making fun of guys for their bravado and ego. Again, this is how the GENERAL PERSON comes across to me. I don't think all women are overly emotional and shallow, and I don't think all men are chest puffing pigs. But you know what? These are typical traits you'll find in many people. They're not definite, but they're there. I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist so people think I'm this way or the other. I don't care.
People shouldn't be afraid to tell the story of the damsel in distress like they are now, just as they shouldn't worry (and they don't these days) about making a female a tough bad ass. You can do both in different stories/entertainment where it makes sense. Nature made us differently to create the balance of life. Males are built to be dominant, females are built to be caring. Take a wild guess which role is more appealing to play as. That doesn't mean you have to be this way - I'm more in tune with a feminine mindset than a masculine one, but if you want proof, look at which gender is physically built to fight and which is built to harbor a human life and care for it. Your beef is with mother nature, not me. And to reiterate, these classical comparisons of the sexes are not some concrete thing for everyone - girls can be stronger and smarter than men. I'm just sick of people making a mountain out of mole hill whenever a girl isn't portrayed as a strong lead with her bumbling doofus of a husband.
So in much needed closing, yes, it's annoying to see the big boobed overly sexual female character. I don't find that appealing at all, and I'm with you in looking down on it. But you know what? A lot of guys do. And just as any media company these days, they care more about the bottom line profit than being modest. And if the general person chooses to give sexed up reality tv ratings, support all the say-nothing "artists" who use their provocative allure to sell records, and continue to glorify living in excess, then that's the grave they chose. Annoying them about the intricacies of gender politics will go in one ear out the other. If you want to influence people to be more mindful of others and gender, you need to make them want to by another medium other than making a big stink about something contrived.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 7, 2012 1:21:47 GMT -5
It's not breaking the cutie as more the typical trope of an action type genre. In gaming, we had Nathan Drake in his series, Batman in Arkham Asylum, the main character of Spec Ops: The Line, the Prince of Prince or Persia, and a few others. Not to mention the various movies and TV shows that show accumulated damage on someone and the effects. And again, the whole issue with the "rape" (ie, not rape) is that it's happened to a woman. The same situation (an enemy approach you with thoughts of assault, button prompt on the screen leads to main character to break free and defeat/kill attacker.) has been done before, but it's different cause the character is female. It lied all in the viewer and nothing pointed out in the video. And, as for that protecting thing, that's pretty much every game's point. Most instruction books and back cover of a game usually use the words guide, or protect, or maneuver or whatever word it is to say "you control this person, make sure he doesn't die". Games do sometimes focus on the fail issue (Dead Space series, and some CD based games), but the general idea is to make sure they get from point a to point b in one piece. Really, is seems to all boil down to "Lara's a woman, so you're not allowed to do all that to her", which is honestly worse than whatever Dynamics was accused of. It's the staple of her own genre now, and she's suddenly not allowed to use that? You must not really be paying attention that much to what they are doing to Lara in this game, then. They are basically straight up torturing Lara and are doing the opposite of what happens to the leads in her genre. You know how Nathan Drake has a really nasty habit of the stuff he's walking on suddenly collapses and he manages to escape serious injury or death by leaping to safety somehow? Yeah, that doesn't happen to Lara in this game. She's not that lucky. Instead, when the stuff she's walking on collapses in this game, it'll look like she's made it to safety, ala Nathan, but then whatever she makes it onto collapses/falls down as well, and thus Lara is subjected to even more damage. All of those male examples you used barely take any damage. The worst physical damage Batman took in the Arkham games, for example, is some cuts and bruises. Nathan took a gun shot wound in the second game(and eventually got better), the Prince from Prince of Persia can f***ing reverse time, so any damage to him is inconsequential. Oh and none of them have been subjected to severe physical and mental drama intentionally by their creators for the sole purpose of changing their character. That is what breaking the cutie does, changing the personality of a character(usually for the worse) by subjecting them to severe physical or mental breakage. It is kind of telling how much crap a character is in for when one of the first things that happens to them once you have control over them is that they get a piece of rebar stabbed through them. But it's the exact same thing that happens in Spec-Op, where you are damaged and limping/bleeding and busted down in this hellish landscape. Condemned as well drove the guy insane enough to be a hobo in the next game, and he just lost a finger. And just cause the other examples didn't suffer "enough" damage for you (and the Scarecrow s*** would have probably f*** Batman up emotionally is he wasn't already emotionally dead, and his family flashbacks still stirred him out of it) is just complaining so you can continue to complain. As for seemingly bringing up the breaking the cutie thing as a female only thing, it also deals with male tropes as well and falls into the same issue as the other examples of breaking the haute or driving the villain insane, all having the same basic principle and just changing who it affects.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jul 7, 2012 1:26:24 GMT -5
And like, let me make this clear: the roles that female characters get shoehorned into are not necessarily bad on their own.
It's okay that, say, Dead or Alive has sexy ladies in it.
But then every other fighting game is filled with sexy ladies.
Meanwhile you'll have some good-looking male characters, some average looking ones, some strange looking ones, some flat-out ugly or monstrous ones, etc.
Kratos or Fenix and other characters like them tend to be designed as male power fantasies, not sexualized for female gamers. Meanwhile female action heroes are nearly always porn star hot and wear outfits that fetishizes them. They aren't female power fantasies so much as they are male sexual fantasies.
And again, it is okay to have a character as a power fantasy or sexual fantasy. The problem, and what is indicative of an overall sexist attitude in the industry, is that most male characters are the former and very rarely the latter, and vice versa for female characters.
Strangely enough, for all their messed up views on ge der and sex, Japan tends to be better about this. Lots of male characters in JRPGs are actually designed to appeal to women.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jul 7, 2012 1:27:45 GMT -5
You must not really be paying attention that much to what they are doing to Lara in this game, then. They are basically straight up torturing Lara and are doing the opposite of what happens to the leads in her genre. You know how Nathan Drake has a really nasty habit of the stuff he's walking on suddenly collapses and he manages to escape serious injury or death by leaping to safety somehow? Yeah, that doesn't happen to Lara in this game. She's not that lucky. Instead, when the stuff she's walking on collapses in this game, it'll look like she's made it to safety, ala Nathan, but then whatever she makes it onto collapses/falls down as well, and thus Lara is subjected to even more damage. All of those male examples you used barely take any damage. The worst physical damage Batman took in the Arkham games, for example, is some cuts and bruises. Nathan took a gun shot wound in the second game(and eventually got better), the Prince from Prince of Persia can f***ing reverse time, so any damage to him is inconsequential. Oh and none of them have been subjected to severe physical and mental drama intentionally by their creators for the sole purpose of changing their character. That is what breaking the cutie does, changing the personality of a character(usually for the worse) by subjecting them to severe physical or mental breakage. It is kind of telling how much crap a character is in for when one of the first things that happens to them once you have control over them is that they get a piece of rebar stabbed through them. But it's the exact same thing that happens in Spec-Op, where you are damaged and limping/bleeding and busted down in this hellish landscape. Condemned as well drove the guy insane enough to be a hobo in the next game, and he just lost a finger. And just cause the other examples didn't suffer "enough" damage for you (and the Scarecrow s*** would have probably f*** Batman up emotionally is he wasn't already emotionally dead, and his family flashbacks still stirred him out of it) is just complaining so you can continue to complain. As for seemingly bringing up the breaking the cutie thing as a female only thing, it also deals with male tropes as well and falls into the same issue as the other examples of breaking the haute or driving the villain insane, all having the same basic principle and just changing who it affects. I'm not saying breaking the cutie is a female only trope, though. However, it does have to happen to a "cute" character for it qualify. And out of your examples the only one that would probably qualify as a "cutie" is Nathan Drake. The Prince, Spec Ops guy, Condemned Dude, and Batman are more handsome or rugged.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 7, 2012 1:31:54 GMT -5
You seem to be conveniently forgetting that interview with a producer of the game where he says all this creepy s*** about how they are using her gender as a way of making the player feel she is weak and needs to be protected by the player holding the controller. He basically suggests that gamers won't identify with a female action hero so instead of making a game where you ARE the hero they made a game where you are protecting the hero because she is a weak woman and men protect the womenfolk right? A tad hyperbolic perhaps but the reasoning given for the way they are approaching the game has some definately sexist undertones and is pretty disturbing. As for the actual content itself, taken away from the context of what that guy said? Well, it's debatable. It's not necessarily sexism to tell a story and/or present a female character in the ways that they are doing. It's more how it fits into the greater misuse of females in gaming. One could suggest that it says a lot that when a formally badass action hero is suddenly rebooted into a much more vulnerable character, who is stripped of her power that she used to have as a character, who is sexually assaulted, just so happens to be a female. It's not crazy to suggest that because she is a woman, people are willing to do this to her character over doing it to an established male badass. I don't honestly see Kratos or Marcus Fenix's getting this treatment anytime soon. Even the characters that take a lot of punishment, like Nathan Drake, aren't reduced to such a state of weakness no matter how bad it gets. Guys like him or Batman may get the hell beat out of them, but they aren't reduced to terrified, panicky wrecks either. They never come off as some poor little victim. The situation bears some similarity to the Other M one, where a formally powerful female action hero is stripped of a lot of her power and agency and made more stereotypically "feminine". It's not so much that telling that kind of story is sexist, it's that the balance isn't there. It's more about trends than individual games. Women get shoehorned into specific roles much more than men do. Of course producer guy came off pretty blatantly sexist and if his attitude reflects the general attitude of the creative team then that's incredibly disappointing. This is just a reflection of the greater issue of female roles and portrayals in gaming. And you are not helping the argument by trying to boil it down to "people just don't want anything bad to happen to a woman!" That is intellectually dishonest. People are raising concerns over these various topics because there ARE gender issues at play, because there ARE issues of sexism revolving around them. You can pretend it doesn't exist as much as you like, but there are real problems here and they are worthy of discussion and you'll just have to deal with that. Some of us want this industry and culture to be better than it is. First off, I really wish people would stop mentioned Other M as this destruction of Samus' character, even though a) she didn't have 1 to begin with, and b) was her official source. It's also why I believe that no video game character can be a role model, and trying to associate a character as a fantasy is ludicrous. When the whole point of the game is to control said character, and their actions are being controlled by the player, it's nothing to really bounce off someone, since it's already part of them. And it's not me boiling down the argument when it seems to be the entire point of the "gamers need to grow up crowd" in the recent news: Criminals are being mean to Catwoman, it must stop! Lara Croft is getting mistreated, it must stop! Agent 47 is killing sexualized nuns, it must stop! Someone was mean to Felica Day, is must stop! The FF project is getting bad troll comments, it must stop! That mentality is the same reason we can't have a discussion over this situation, cause the immediate reply is basically "stop being mean to them!" and tossing out all argument of context, logic, and actual discussion aside. Nearly every gaming media site is playing it like this, with a "shame on you" reaction to anyone who says that maybe it's not the best thing to do something like that.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 7, 2012 1:33:48 GMT -5
But it's the exact same thing that happens in Spec-Op, where you are damaged and limping/bleeding and busted down in this hellish landscape. Condemned as well drove the guy insane enough to be a hobo in the next game, and he just lost a finger. And just cause the other examples didn't suffer "enough" damage for you (and the Scarecrow s*** would have probably f*** Batman up emotionally is he wasn't already emotionally dead, and his family flashbacks still stirred him out of it) is just complaining so you can continue to complain. As for seemingly bringing up the breaking the cutie thing as a female only thing, it also deals with male tropes as well and falls into the same issue as the other examples of breaking the haute or driving the villain insane, all having the same basic principle and just changing who it affects. I'm not saying breaking the cutie is a female only trope, though. However, it does have to happen to a "cute" character for it qualify. And out of your examples the only one that would probably qualify as a "cutie" is Nathan Drake. The Prince, Spec Ops guy, Condemned Dude, and Batman are more handsome or rugged. And Lara isn't rugged at this point? From the Game Informer cover to the various shots and the photo of her tying her own bandage around her arm and all the other focus on the aspects for survival, and that doesn't qualifier her in the same circle as the other people?
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Jul 7, 2012 1:35:42 GMT -5
This one especially is the thing that bugs me. In a small subsection of a city peopled almost entirely with criminals, thieves, murderers and rapists, they're expected to treat women with class and civility, and still have it make sense to narrative structure and story consistency. I'd LOVE to hear what the alternative is supposed to be, given the context.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jul 7, 2012 1:42:07 GMT -5
You know what? I am really sick of people dismissing legit arguments as people being "white knights", and people "just wanting to complain" and "pushing a fake agenda". I am really sick of people bringing up male characters as examples of "the same thing" when it's really not the same thing at all. When is Batman reduced to a quivering weakling? When did the people making Arkham tell us how hey are going to make us feel sorry for the pain he experiences because he's a man and men need to be protected? How often are men sexualized in games, I mean REALLY sexualized. How often are previously capable and badass male characters stripped of their badass identity like Lara and Samus?
It makes me sick when actual issues are brushed aside and those willing to speak up about it and discuss it are attacked not on their actual position, but on some BS projected image of their intentions. You don't think my concerns are genuine? You don't think the concerns of the gamers and journalists out there are genuine? Well you're wrong. And no matter how much you want to scream "fake feminism white knight hurrrrrrr durrrrrrrr" at people you're not going to be any less wrong.
Some of you are obviously not interested in actually confronting and identifying the issues, you are more concerned with demonizing people for daring to challenge the status quo. Sorry for making you uncomfortable, but sexism matters no matter how much you want us to pretend it doesn't, and sexism is rampant in the game industry no matter how much you want to dismiss it. Don't want people to talk about it? Too bad.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 7, 2012 1:42:10 GMT -5
Kratos or Fenix and other characters like them tend to be designed as male power fantasies NO! NO NO NO! I have never, in my entire life, ever looked at Kratos or Marcus Fenix, or Mario, or Link, or Shepard or anyone in the gaming scene and went "I want to be him!" NEVER! In fact, I'm the opposite, I have feared looking like some jacked up guy like Fenix or Kratos. I don't want to scare people, which is all that body types does. I am honestly so sick of this argument being tossed around every time. "Oh, these video game people are male fantasies, but not female ones!"as if all men want to look like the generic grizzled white guy and every woman would never be caught dead wearing any kind of sexualized outfit and body type in general life. You know what I want? I want to be able to be normal, to be someone who doesn't get s*** for looking like he does. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone wants to feel like, not being judged by such an extreme view of a standard. But it seems to be like that point is lost on the other side of the discussion. Gaming bodies is not a male fantasy, it's fantasy. make believe, relics of ancient story telling and focus on the older type of establishing heroes and villains.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 7, 2012 1:56:05 GMT -5
You know what? I am really sick of people dismissing legit arguments as people being "white knights", and people "just wanting to complain" and "pushing a fake agenda". I am really sick of people bringing up male characters as examples of "the same thing" when it's really not the same thing at all. When is Batman reduced to a quivering weakling? When did the people making Arkham tell us how hey are going to make us feel sorry for the pain he experiences because he's a man and men need to be protected? How often are men sexualized in games, I mean REALLY sexualized. How often are previously capable and badass male characters stripped of their badass identity like Lara and Samus? It makes me sick when actual issues are brushed aside and those willing to speak up about it and discuss it are attacked not on their actual position, but on some BS projected image of their intentions. You don't think my concerns are genuine? You don't think the concerns of the gamers and journalists out there are genuine? Well you're wrong. And no matter how much you want to scream "fake feminism white knight hurrrrrrr durrrrrrrr" at people you're not going to be any less wrong. Some of you are obviously not interested in actually confronting and identifying the issues, you are more concerned with demonizing people for daring to challenge the status quo. Sorry for making you uncomfortable, but sexism matters no matter how much you want us to pretend it doesn't, and sexism is rampant in the game industry no matter how much you want to dismiss it. Don't want people to talk about it? Too bad. I never said I didn't want people to talk about it, I just wanted it used right, which it isn't. Sexism, by definition, is the act of trying to keep a gender down by reverting them to older roles and stereotypes. Generally, to make them look inferior and unworthy. I mean, it's the definition on dictionary.com: Like I said, the only thing that would fall under that recently is the FF video. Nothing in the Lara or Catwoman examples make them look inferior or that they don't belong. The opposite, actually, as their actions prove. The Hitman thing, more about context and theem from the series. The Day incident, more an issue of misplace anger, as it's a situation of her fans deeming her importance in their lives rather than Day herself. And really, saying that I'm putting it all in this narrow view of calling something a white knight, while being ironic, is forgetting the point that this was really the excuse in sites like Escapist and Destructoid and Kotaku and IGN, that the only people who were against this were sexist gaming trolls who would rather women stay in the kitchen, and it was their duty to remind people why this was needed. A bunch fo articles and videos that tell gamers if they don't side with them, there is something wrong with you and that men can't be offended and have no say in the discussion of gender topics in culture. I want discussion on this, I just don't want the response to any challenge to be an issue of labeling people as sexist. I also don't want to just talk about roles of women. What of men? minorities? the disabled? Why not a discussion if gaming really can be held by the standards of static equality or if it needs something more complex, or if we should just shut up and game or if we need to go more insane or less fantastical in design or thing.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jul 7, 2012 1:59:43 GMT -5
You seem to be conveniently forgetting that interview with a producer of the game where he says all this creepy s*** about how they are using her gender as a way of making the player feel she is weak and needs to be protected by the player holding the controller. He basically suggests that gamers won't identify with a female action hero so instead of making a game where you ARE the hero they made a game where you are protecting the hero because she is a weak woman and men protect the womenfolk right? A tad hyperbolic perhaps but the reasoning given for the way they are approaching the game has some definately sexist undertones and is pretty disturbing. As for the actual content itself, taken away from the context of what that guy said? Well, it's debatable. It's not necessarily sexism to tell a story and/or present a female character in the ways that they are doing. It's more how it fits into the greater misuse of females in gaming. One could suggest that it says a lot that when a formally badass action hero is suddenly rebooted into a much more vulnerable character, who is stripped of her power that she used to have as a character, who is sexually assaulted, just so happens to be a female. It's not crazy to suggest that because she is a woman, people are willing to do this to her character over doing it to an established male badass. I don't honestly see Kratos or Marcus Fenix's getting this treatment anytime soon. Even the characters that take a lot of punishment, like Nathan Drake, aren't reduced to such a state of weakness no matter how bad it gets. Guys like him or Batman may get the hell beat out of them, but they aren't reduced to terrified, panicky wrecks either. They never come off as some poor little victim. The situation bears some similarity to the Other M one, where a formally powerful female action hero is stripped of a lot of her power and agency and made more stereotypically "feminine". It's not so much that telling that kind of story is sexist, it's that the balance isn't there. It's more about trends than individual games. Women get shoehorned into specific roles much more than men do. Of course producer guy came off pretty blatantly sexist and if his attitude reflects the general attitude of the creative team then that's incredibly disappointing. This is just a reflection of the greater issue of female roles and portrayals in gaming. And you are not helping the argument by trying to boil it down to "people just don't want anything bad to happen to a woman!" That is intellectually dishonest. People are raising concerns over these various topics because there ARE gender issues at play, because there ARE issues of sexism revolving around them. You can pretend it doesn't exist as much as you like, but there are real problems here and they are worthy of discussion and you'll just have to deal with that. Some of us want this industry and culture to be better than it is. First off, I really wish people would stop mentioned Other M as this destruction of Samus' character, even though a) she didn't have 1 to begin with, and b) was her official source. It's also why I believe that no video game character can be a role model, and trying to associate a character as a fantasy is ludicrous. When the whole point of the game is to control said character, and their actions are being controlled by the player, it's nothing to really bounce off someone, since it's already part of them. And it's not me boiling down the argument when it seems to be the entire point of the "gamers need to grow up crowd" in the recent news: Criminals are being mean to Catwoman, it must stop! Lara Croft is getting mistreated, it must stop! Agent 47 is killing sexualized nuns, it must stop! Someone was mean to Felica Day, is must stop! The FF project is getting bad troll comments, it must stop! That mentality is the same reason we can't have a discussion over this situation, cause the immediate reply is basically "stop being mean to them!" and tossing out all argument of context, logic, and actual discussion aside. Nearly every gaming media site is playing it like this, with a "shame on you" reaction to anyone who says that maybe it's not the best thing to do something like that. Except YOU are the one who tosses out context, logic, and actual discussion. The proof is in how you are framing the arguments in this very post I just quoted. The FF crap was sexism because the people going after her were attacking her for daring to look at sexist trends in gaming, and doing so by attacking her in very specifically gender-based ways. This may come as a shock but telling a woman that she should be silent and that she should get back in the kitchen and show her tits and should be raped is misogyny. Even if they are "jokes" or "trolling". The Lara stuff is causing concerns for a number of reasons that have been painstakingly pointed out to you already are completely dismissing immediately before bitching that those damn white knights just throw out all discussion! Felicia Day was attacked because she is a woman who has gotten success and part of why is because of her sex appeal. There are two sexist things about what was said to her, one was the discounting of all her other efforts, reducing her to just her looks. The other was suggesting that people liking her for her looks is worthy of scorn and makes her undeserving, which is just slut shaming. The stupid nun squad in the Hitman trailer was sexualization for the sake of it, in a series that has always kept it's sexualization within areas where it makes sense. The trailer itself failed to represent how sexuality is represented in the series, and failed to represent the actual gameplay of the series on top of that...all so we could just have a trailer with sexy ladies. While it's not as big of a deal as some of this other stuff, it is alarming that they felt it was necessary to market the game in this way, as it's basically shoehorning in sexual exploitation where it is completely out of place. The problem is not "people are being mean to them!" the problem is the CONTEXT of why those people are being mean and the ways they choose to be mean, a context that is indicative of sexist attitudes. But by all means, keep dismissing everything and then accuse everyone else of ignoring arguments. It really helps you make your point.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jul 7, 2012 2:03:20 GMT -5
I'm not saying breaking the cutie is a female only trope, though. However, it does have to happen to a "cute" character for it qualify. And out of your examples the only one that would probably qualify as a "cutie" is Nathan Drake. The Prince, Spec Ops guy, Condemned Dude, and Batman are more handsome or rugged. And Lara isn't rugged at this point? From the Game Informer cover to the various shots and the photo of her tying her own bandage around her arm and all the other focus on the aspects for survival, and that doesn't qualifier her in the same circle as the other people? Well I meant rugged looking. And that stuff happens AFTER they've started the process of breaking her. Before the whole rebar through the gut thing, Lara is just a pretty, somewhat naive, young British girl.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jul 7, 2012 2:17:21 GMT -5
The answer is really quite simple: people who are in minority positions of power, representation, and access should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop inhabiting that position. These people are basically silencing, marginalizing, and stereotyping themselves, and thus it's their own fault for their lot. Privileged people have privileges because that's just the way the world has always worked.*
*I do not actually believe in or endorse this position. Absurd argument is purposefully absurd.
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