Did you agree with Lawler's stance on ECW?

[Deleted]

1997. 2005. 2006.

He was pretty consistent on his views on ECW at all times.

The question is, did you agree with him too when he kept on shooting down ECW calling it "bingo hall" style wrestling?

[themagnificentmoo]

I voted yes.

[laker8kiss]

I agree with it because it led to great television.

[hitch]

Nov 4, 2012 13:19:56 GMT -5 laker8kiss said:

I agree with it because it led to great television.

That's not really the question being asked though.

[mauled]

Yep without question. Cornette says it better pointing out that wrestlers doing crazy stuff like putting staplers to themselves is because of ECW.

[froggyfrog]

Nah, guys like Guerrero, Malenko, Benoit, Jericho, Storm, Awesome Rey, more Luchadors came through ECW I would hardly describe them as Bingo Hall wrestlers. Some guys were sure, but they had a lot of talent as well.

[hitch]

Nov 4, 2012 13:34:27 GMT -5 mauled said:

Yep without question. Cornette says it better pointing out that wrestlers doing crazy stuff like putting staplers to themselves is because of ECW.

I'd agree with this. It took the industry to a point of beyond recovery once it's style was exposed. At one point the use of a chair or a table or a weapon would have tremendous heat and shock value. Thanks to ECW it had virtually zero. Guys were having to cause serious physical harm to themselves and to their bodies just to slightly pique interest as they were performing in front of fans who had seen and therefore demanded that as a very minimal expectation.

I can accept that ECW was unique and that it pushed boundaries and opened up a style that hadn't been seen before on that level. But as a wrestling fan I think it's a betrayal to say that I agree with it.

Was it novel and interesting? Yes.

Did it mean guys had to resort to actual bodily harm to even get over in the slightest degree? Yes. And that's a horrible, horrible, horrible thing that how 'fun' it was to watch cannot detract from.

[hitch]

Because the internet is fertile ground for Heyman, even to this day, rarely - if ever - is the question asked 'How many guys left Paul Heyman's employ with a serious addiction to prescription drugs such as pain killers?'

When you consider what a lot of those guys were doing and for the period of time they were doing it, any other answer than 'A worryingly large amount' would not have any credibility at all.

Is this mentioned? No. Why? Because Heyman is a 'genius'. Of course.

[pepsitwist]

Nov 4, 2012 13:48:03 GMT -5 hitch said:

Because the internet is fertile ground for Heyman, even to this day, rarely - if ever - is the question asked 'How many guys left Paul Heyman's employ with a serious addiction to prescription drugs such as pain killers?'

When you consider what a lot of those guys were doing and for the period of time they were doing it, any other answer than 'A worryingly large amount' would not have any credibility at all.

Is this mentioned? No. Why? Because Heyman is a 'genius'. Of course.

How many WCW or WWF guys were hooked on pain pills or steroids? The industry was at fault, not a single company.

[Arrow]

Nov 4, 2012 13:37:58 GMT -5 froggyfrog said:

Nah, guys like Guerrero, Malenko, Benoit, Jericho, Storm, Awesome Rey, more Luchadors came through ECW I would hardly describe them as Bingo Hall wrestlers. Some guys were sure, but they had a lot of talent as well.

Interestingly enough Guerrero, Benoit, Jericho, and Malenko were all only there for about a year each (Guerrero, I think, even less). And all of them had longer careers before and after their ECW stints. Many of the stars ECW and Paul Heyman get credited for discovering or making entered their primes outside of that promotion.

[hitch]

Nov 4, 2012 13:59:10 GMT -5 pepsitwist said:

Nov 4, 2012 13:48:03 GMT -5 hitch said:

Because the internet is fertile ground for Heyman, even to this day, rarely - if ever - is the question asked 'How many guys left Paul Heyman's employ with a serious addiction to prescription drugs such as pain killers?'

When you consider what a lot of those guys were doing and for the period of time they were doing it, any other answer than 'A worryingly large amount' would not have any credibility at all.

Is this mentioned? No. Why? Because Heyman is a 'genius'. Of course.

How many WCW or WWF guys were hooked on pain pills or steroids? The industry was at fault, not a single company.

Agreed. Yet only one company seems to be completely exonerated in its involvement. Given how big the subject is and how widespread discussion on it on the internet has been isn't it a coincidence that the guy who is arguably the 'darling' of the IWC has to this day avoided almost entirely without even being mentioned in this discussion. As if an innocent by-stander.

For WWE a lot of guys were addicted to stuff firstly because when they started a lot was legal and they found it hard to come off and also the tough road schedule. I think in 1987 the company had nearly 800 house shows a year.

But it cannot be denied that asking guys to endure the intense physical pain that Heyman demanded would have had a tremendous impact on their bodies abilities to cope with that pain and the solution would be obvious. Almost practical.

Yet still while it remains fine to blame promoters in general for the problem - Heyman escapes entirely without mention.

I'm not saying he created it but when you're asking people to endure intense physical pain every night just to pop your audience and get them to chant the name of your company - you're not without a serious and substantial amount of 'blame'.

Yet beyond this discussion I've NEVER seen it mentioned on the internet, where the subject of steroid abuse and promotional duty of care to performers has been discussed a million different times but millions of different people.

I find that very, very, very strange and somewhat sinister.

Even beyond that it makes any discussion of painkiller addiction in the industry a joke if you don't mention the guy who run a promotion where you had to fall on a bed of thumb-tacks and barbed wire just as a matter of course. As if it was as ordinary as a body slam or a suplex. Not without understanding where that took the industry with other smaller promotions copycatting the style.

Heyman has a pretty dark ******* legacy in this respect, but because he's the internet darling, it goes without saying it always goes without being said.

[Deleted]

That debate from Raw in March 1997 was something though. Too bad no one showed up as Lawler was promising.

[Push R Truth]

I really liked ECW, but I don't think Lawler was wrong.

[Dr. Marzvon Zombie M.D.]

Lawler was doing the same GARBAGE wrestling in Memphis. I strongly disagree with Lawler. And for people saying oh, they did this and caused people to take more drugs, blah, f***ing, blah. NO ONE FORCED THESE GUYS TO DO IT!!! THEY COULD OF WORKED AN OFFICE JOB, RIGHT? So, they weren't larger than life characters, so they did what they had to do to stand out! It was their choice, not the genius Paul Heyman, he gave them direction, they didn't have to follow it. They all knew what they were doing when they signed up. So I call bs on anyone that blames Paul E about what drugs they were on, and dying too young. The chose the life style and brought an entertaining product and helped indirectly create the biggest boom period in the wrestling biz.

[froggyfrog]

Nov 4, 2012 14:10:08 GMT -5 hitch said:

Nov 4, 2012 13:59:10 GMT -5 pepsitwist said:

How many WCW or WWF guys were hooked on pain pills or steroids? The industry was at fault, not a single company.

Agreed. Yet only one company seems to be completely exonerated in its involvement. Given how big the subject is and how widespread discussion on it on the internet has been isn't it a coincidence that the guy who is arguably the 'darling' of the IWC has to this day avoided almost entirely without even being mentioned in this discussion. As if an innocent by-stander.

For WWE a lot of guys were addicted to stuff firstly because when they started a lot was legal and they found it hard to come off and also the tough road schedule. I think in 1987 the company had nearly 800 house shows a year.

But it cannot be denied that asking guys to endure the intense physical pain that Heyman demanded would have had a tremendous impact on their bodies abilities to cope with that pain and the solution would be obvious. Almost practical.

Yet still while it remains fine to blame promoters in general for the problem - Heyman escapes entirely without mention.

I'm not saying he created it but when you're asking people to endure intense physical pain every night just to pop your audience and get them to chant the name of your company - you're not without a serious and substantial amount of 'blame'.

Yet beyond this discussion I've NEVER seen it mentioned on the internet, where the subject of steroid abuse and promotional duty of care to performers has been discussed a million different times but millions of different people.

I find that very, very, very strange and somewhat sinister.

Even beyond that it makes any discussion of painkiller addiction in the industry a joke if you don't mention the guy who run a promotion where you had to fall on a bed of thumb-tacks and barbed wire just as a matter of course. As if it was as ordinary as a body slam or a suplex. Not without understanding where that took the industry with other smaller promotions copycatting the style.

Heyman has a pretty dark ******* legacy in this respect, but because he's the internet darling, it goes without saying it always goes without being said.

Who said these wrestlers were pressured by Heyman to do anything they didn't want? I think your jumping to a lot of conclusions by blaming Heyman for anything. To blame anybody for anyone else's drug use is a pretty ignorant move imo.

[pepsitwist]

Nov 4, 2012 13:59:48 GMT -5 Arrow said:

Nov 4, 2012 13:37:58 GMT -5 froggyfrog said:

Nah, guys like Guerrero, Malenko, Benoit, Jericho, Storm, Awesome Rey, more Luchadors came through ECW I would hardly describe them as Bingo Hall wrestlers. Some guys were sure, but they had a lot of talent as well.

Interestingly enough Guerrero, Benoit, Jericho, and Malenko were all only there for about a year each (Guerrero, I think, even less). And all of them had longer careers before and after their ECW stints. Many of the stars ECW and Paul Heyman get credited for discovering or making entered their primes outside of that promotion.

Arguably, all of those guys were given exposure to larger North American audiences by being in ECW for that period. Most had come from working in Mexico/Japan, smaller independents in America. In spring boarded them into WCW and WWF. Same with the luchadors like Rey Mysterio, Juventud, Psicosis, La Parka, Konnan.

Had it not been for WCW throwing a lot of money at their talent in 1995/96/97, ECW could have a very established talent roster.

[hitch]

Nov 4, 2012 15:09:24 GMT -5 froggyfrog said:

Nov 4, 2012 14:10:08 GMT -5 hitch said:

Agreed. Yet only one company seems to be completely exonerated in its involvement. Given how big the subject is and how widespread discussion on it on the internet has been isn't it a coincidence that the guy who is arguably the 'darling' of the IWC has to this day avoided almost entirely without even being mentioned in this discussion. As if an innocent by-stander.

For WWE a lot of guys were addicted to stuff firstly because when they started a lot was legal and they found it hard to come off and also the tough road schedule. I think in 1987 the company had nearly 800 house shows a year.

But it cannot be denied that asking guys to endure the intense physical pain that Heyman demanded would have had a tremendous impact on their bodies abilities to cope with that pain and the solution would be obvious. Almost practical.

Yet still while it remains fine to blame promoters in general for the problem - Heyman escapes entirely without mention.

I'm not saying he created it but when you're asking people to endure intense physical pain every night just to pop your audience and get them to chant the name of your company - you're not without a serious and substantial amount of 'blame'.

Yet beyond this discussion I've NEVER seen it mentioned on the internet, where the subject of steroid abuse and promotional duty of care to performers has been discussed a million different times but millions of different people.

I find that very, very, very strange and somewhat sinister.

Even beyond that it makes any discussion of painkiller addiction in the industry a joke if you don't mention the guy who run a promotion where you had to fall on a bed of thumb-tacks and barbed wire just as a matter of course. As if it was as ordinary as a body slam or a suplex. Not without understanding where that took the industry with other smaller promotions copycatting the style.

Heyman has a pretty dark ******* legacy in this respect, but because he's the internet darling, it goes without saying it always goes without being said.

Who said these wrestlers were pressured by Heyman to do anything they didn't want? I think your jumping to a lot of conclusions by blaming Heyman for anything. To blame anybody for anyone else's drug use is a pretty ignorant move imo.

It's pretty ignorant to say 'Oh sure these guys went through immense pain and physical harm working for someone...but hey ho, it's not the employers fault'

As if tomorrow it was discovered everyone at Disney was a coked up child abuser people would just say 'Well, the coincidence they all worked for Disney means nothing. Let's move on'

Let's get some reality in perspective.

I agree to an extent that it isn't ALL the promotors fault but they are often part of the problem and it's sickening almost how Heyman, unlike Vince who seemingly gets ALL the blame for this, has not been held to account once, or even had the question raised of him.

By virtue of the fact it was his show this stuff happened on he DID have a duty of care. Same as NBC would be responsible if it decided to air a show of people hurting themselves horribly for the enjoyment of others. They wouldn't be able to say 'Well we didn't force them to' - it'd be a bullcrap excuse that wouldn't last five minutes.

If this debate was about Vince there'd be at least 40 people by now waving their fists with the 'Boo Vince' attitude. But Heyman? The IWC darling, there'll be none of that thank you very much. Even though is equally as culpable as anyone else.

In fact, as I say, if you look at what he inspired, which was SERIOUSLY dangerous shizz in the small-time feds where guys would do horrific stuff in order to emulate the style popularised by ECW - some ultimate responsibility has to lay at his feet. Not all. But not none either.

It's not as if he was 'just' the producer and that nothing that happened on his show had anything to do with him. Like he was as responsible as to the content as the ice cream vendor or something.

[Kitty Shamrocks]

I strongly disagree with Lawler and this "Heyman is an evil internet darling" thing. That is all.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Nov 4, 2012 13:34:27 GMT -5 mauled said:

Yep without question. Cornette says it better pointing out that wrestlers doing crazy stuff like putting staplers to themselves is because of ECW.

People are responsible for their own actions. You may as well join those blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine.

[celticjobber]

Nov 4, 2012 16:27:34 GMT -5 Kitty Shamrocks said:

I strongly disagree with Lawler and this "Heyman is an evil internet darling" thing. That is all.

Seconded. ECW was f***ing awesome, and much of it is easier for me to go back and watch than stuff from the WWF Attitude era.