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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on Nov 6, 2012 18:27:55 GMT -5
You would think that with the sentiment that the "generic hoss" isn't as talented as some other stars...Daniel Bryan being one of the main examples often used...that logic would assume that the generic hoss would need the extra push to get over.
Bryan got little to nothing, as everyone loves to point out, but he's still over as hell right now. He was good enough to get it done on his own, but Ryback is a hoss...everyone loves to crap on him about his workrate and moveset, etc...so why the dislike because a wrestler who NEEDS the extra hand up GETS one?
To me, it always sounded like "I'm mad because MY favorite isn't getting to be on top all the time" to me, but that's just my personal opinion... Well that's what it is, but they're actually my favorites because they can cut good promos or have good matches, Ryback has a catchphrase and clotheslines, lots and lots of clotheslines. Then what's the problem with the less talented guy getting the helping hand? He has a look that Vince likes and has gotten VERY over with the catchphrase and clotheslines. There's nothing wrong with variety, because a lot of the fans who don't dig the so-called "vanilla midgets" might be big fans of the hoss characters. This way, everybody gets a little of what they like.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 6, 2012 18:41:48 GMT -5
I'll say again.
I don't care if it was organic. He's over, and he is a new star. Be happy.
WWE pushed him and the people liked him for once. That hardly happens these days.
You want a steak, you've been given a burger. Just eat the burger, because all we got before was a turd on a plate.
We've got to start somewhere, and if WWE gets a new guy over this way and shows that they can have someone who is not Cena in a main event and the world doesn't implode, this is a step in the right direction.
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Post by cahuette on Nov 6, 2012 18:42:57 GMT -5
Well that's what it is, but they're actually my favorites because they can cut good promos or have good matches, Ryback has a catchphrase and clotheslines, lots and lots of clotheslines. Then what's the problem with the less talented guy getting the helping hand? He has a look that Vince likes and has gotten VERY over with the catchphrase and clotheslines. There's nothing wrong with variety, because a lot of the fans who don't dig the so-called "vanilla midgets" might be big fans of the hoss characters. This way, everybody gets a little of what they like.I don't feel like "hoss" fans are getting a little of what they like, Sheamus, Cena, Ryback, HHH and Brock whenever they come back, there's no variety here, the "vanilla midgets" have to make a mainstream buzz to get a main event spot, and they barely have it.
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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on Nov 6, 2012 19:29:01 GMT -5
Then what's the problem with the less talented guy getting the helping hand? He has a look that Vince likes and has gotten VERY over with the catchphrase and clotheslines. There's nothing wrong with variety, because a lot of the fans who don't dig the so-called "vanilla midgets" might be big fans of the hoss characters. This way, everybody gets a little of what they like. I don't feel like "hoss" fans are getting a little of what they like, Sheamus, Cena, Ryback, HHH and Brock whenever they come back, there's no variety here, the "vanilla midgets" have to make a mainstream buzz to get a main event spot, and they barely have it. Daniel Bryan's a former WHC and current tag champion that's been getting a lot of the spotlight and easily one of the best things about the tag division. CM Punk's been champ for a year and one of the most talked about guys that entire time. How is that barely having it?
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Post by eJm on Nov 6, 2012 19:33:54 GMT -5
It'd have felt a tonne more organic if Cena didn't get injured and he was allowed to be built more and feuded with more guys like Goldberg did. It was a big deal when he won the US title from Raven never mind won the world title from Hogan.
As it is...it doesn't feel quite there. I personally don't believe in it because it doesn't feel natural, rather thrusted because of circumstance.
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Post by cahuette on Nov 6, 2012 20:27:37 GMT -5
I don't feel like "hoss" fans are getting a little of what they like, Sheamus, Cena, Ryback, HHH and Brock whenever they come back, there's no variety here, the "vanilla midgets" have to make a mainstream buzz to get a main event spot, and they barely have it. Daniel Bryan's a former WHC and current tag champion that's been getting a lot of the spotlight and easily one of the best things about the tag division. CM Punk's been champ for a year and one of the most talked about guys that entire time. How is that barely having it?Because the big guys are all indestructible machines? There's no "underdogs" here, there are big guys, and the little guys who are gonna low blow their way to the victory, big guys are great, little guys flat out sucks, that's what the WWE is doing, so maybe you should try to watch it from the other side since "we're not liking it because our favorites are not winning", and watch how much yours are dominating the show.
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Xifax
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Post by Xifax on Nov 6, 2012 20:34:07 GMT -5
the whole thing feels incredibly forced, which is pretty much the opposite of organic, so no, not really.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Nov 6, 2012 20:35:24 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan's a former WHC and current tag champion that's been getting a lot of the spotlight and easily one of the best things about the tag division. CM Punk's been champ for a year and one of the most talked about guys that entire time. How is that barely having it? Because the big guys are all indestructible machines? There's no "underdogs" here, there are big guys, and the little guys who are gonna low blow their way to the victory, big guys are great, little guys flat out sucks, that's what the WWE is doing, so maybe you should try to watch it from the other side since "we're not liking it because our favorites are not winning", and watch how much yours are dominating the show. John Cena, while not the prototypical hoss, has pretty much jobbed his way through most of this year, and they booked him to be the first guy to fail the MiTB cash in. As a result, future MiTB holders are now protected from having that possible stigma hanging over their heads. Daniel Bryan, while he doesn't dominate physically, he is one of the select few in the company that the narrative revolves around. Team Hell No is largely driven by Bryan. I AM THE TAG TEAM CHAMPIONS! is an extension of YES!. Kane's involvement is just a by-product of the AJ storyline, which in itself is a by-product of Bryan's initial push.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2012 20:35:45 GMT -5
I'll say again. I don't care if it was organic. He's over, and he is a new star. Be happy.WWE pushed him and the people liked him for once. That hardly happens these days. You want a steak, you've been given a burger. Just eat the burger, because all we got before was a turd on a plate. We've got to start somewhere, and if WWE gets a new guy over this way and shows that they can have someone who is not Cena in a main event and the world doesn't implode, this is a step in the right direction. It sounds great, but I just wish the guy that they finally got behind wasn't someone that makes me sigh out of boredom every time he comes out. The fan in me can't get past that and say "well it's good in the long run", even though I understand that sentiment when I see it spelled out.
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Post by hughgrection on Nov 6, 2012 20:55:42 GMT -5
I'll say again. I don't care if it was organic. He's over, and he is a new star. Be happy.WWE pushed him and the people liked him for once. That hardly happens these days. You want a steak, you've been given a burger. Just eat the burger, because all we got before was a turd on a plate. We've got to start somewhere, and if WWE gets a new guy over this way and shows that they can have someone who is not Cena in a main event and the world doesn't implode, this is a step in the right direction. Ryback is not going to replace Cena as the number 1 guy. They already panicked and scrapped the survivor series match and threw in Cena.
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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on Nov 6, 2012 21:55:21 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan's a former WHC and current tag champion that's been getting a lot of the spotlight and easily one of the best things about the tag division. CM Punk's been champ for a year and one of the most talked about guys that entire time. How is that barely having it? Because the big guys are all indestructible machines? There's no "underdogs" here, there are big guys, and the little guys who are gonna low blow their way to the victory, big guys are great, little guys flat out sucks, that's what the WWE is doing, so maybe you should try to watch it from the other side since "we're not liking it because our favorites are not winning", and watch how much yours are dominating the show. So basically it comes down to "it's not enough" then? Daniel Bryan being HUGE over, getting the WHC, getting the tag championships, getting the major angle and the spotlight, it isn't enough? CM Punk getting the top title, beating Super Cena for a YEAR STRAIGHT, holding the belt for an entire year, in the big angles and getting the spotlight, it isn't enough? Because that's what it sounds like.
The WWE has never and WILL never abandon the hoss formula. Thinking/hoping/praying they will is futile. The little guys have their spots and for the last year, have been major players at the top level. Guys like Cena/Sheamus/Show aren't just going to disappear or suddenly get demoted out of the blue. And I'm not saying that it's a perfect system, because it's far from it. But we're well beyond the point of everyone complaining about little guys not getting a chance at all.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 6, 2012 22:24:28 GMT -5
For Ryback to have organically gotten over, that would have to mean it was not the office's intention for him to rise, (i.e. not protecting him in the booking) No, thats not what an organic push is. Succeededing when WWE hopes you succeed is not a bad thing, its not a forced push either. This whole "you have to get over after being booked like s***" to be considered having an organic push is nonsense. He did his thing for months without any main eventers getting involved with him, and got over. Even so, he spent most of his time beating up jobbers and Jinder Mahal. You misunderstand my sentiment. I'm saying Ryback was a deliberate attempt to build a star from the beginning, where as, say, Daniel Bryan was not. I'm saying that Ryback was protected in booking (and there's nothing wrong with that) by being instantly presented as a winner and world-beater (his intensity and tangible physical charisma also made that push work). It was a deliberate effort. Where as others have had to overcome adversity of bad booking and losing streaks to rise and get over to the point where the office took notice. I'm not saying Ryback should have had to lose like that, because my point is that that kind of booking is stupid and detrimental. I'm saying that it'd be nice if guys that didn't fit his physical archetype ALSO got the same effort and booking advantage put into them. But that's not a knock on Ryback. He is over. But it wasn't traditionally organic. The office decided from the get go that he'd be a star --then he backed it up.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Nov 6, 2012 22:28:42 GMT -5
No, thats not what an organic push is. Succeededing when WWE hopes you succeed is not a bad thing, its not a forced push either. This whole "you have to get over after being booked like s***" to be considered having an organic push is nonsense. He did his thing for months without any main eventers getting involved with him, and got over. Even so, he spent most of his time beating up jobbers and Jinder Mahal. You misunderstand my sentiment. I'm saying Ryback was a deliberate attempt to build a star from the beginning, where as, say, Daniel Bryan was not. I'm saying that Ryback was protected in booking (and there's nothing wrong with that) by being instantly presented as a winner and world-beater (his intensity and tangible physical charisma also made that push work). It was a deliberate effort. Where as others have had to overcome adversity of bad booking and losing streaks to rise and get over to the point where the office took notice. I'm not saying Ryback should have had to lose like that, because my point is that that kind of booking is stupid and detrimental. I'm saying that it'd be nice if guys that didn't fit his physical archetype ALSO got the same effort and booking advantage put into them. But that's not a knock on Ryback. He is over. But it wasn't traditionally organic. The office decided from the get go that he'd be a star --then he backed it up. Daniel Bryan was a world champion a year and a half after debuting, and it wasn't until after he won the title when he started really getting over, and it exploded ironically AFTER he lost it. Lets just chill with the myth that he wasn't given any sort of push from the get go. And yeah, Its still organic if WWE wanted him to be a star. They just got it right.
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Nov 6, 2012 22:34:24 GMT -5
Just imagine if he didn't get injured than where would he and Nexus be at this point, would things be different for both of them
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 6, 2012 22:44:24 GMT -5
You misunderstand my sentiment. I'm saying Ryback was a deliberate attempt to build a star from the beginning, where as, say, Daniel Bryan was not. I'm saying that Ryback was protected in booking (and there's nothing wrong with that) by being instantly presented as a winner and world-beater (his intensity and tangible physical charisma also made that push work). It was a deliberate effort. Where as others have had to overcome adversity of bad booking and losing streaks to rise and get over to the point where the office took notice. I'm not saying Ryback should have had to lose like that, because my point is that that kind of booking is stupid and detrimental. I'm saying that it'd be nice if guys that didn't fit his physical archetype ALSO got the same effort and booking advantage put into them. But that's not a knock on Ryback. He is over. But it wasn't traditionally organic. The office decided from the get go that he'd be a star --then he backed it up. Daniel Bryan was a world champion a year and a half after debuting, and it wasn't until after he won the title when he started really getting over, and it exploded ironically AFTER he lost it. Lets just chill with the myth that he wasn't given any sort of push from the get go. And yeah, Its still organic if WWE wanted him to be a star. They just got it right. If the WWE wanted it and designed it, it means it wasn't organic. Organic happens without any sort of interference or manipulation. That is the literal definition of it. And that was the point. Pick a new word; don't try to redefine and square peg the meaning to suit your personal opinion. And once again, I didn't say that Daniel Bryan never got pushed. I'm saying that his initial booking was terrible and baffling based on his natural ability. A losing streak is never a help to anyone; its a detriment. His current popularity and appeal is in spite of his early booking, not because of it. Had he been booked right out of the hop as a submission machine that tapped guys, rather than some archaic plucky underdog, he'd be way ahead in the game. He'd still have been able to show the natural charisma that got him over anyway, but he'd have been seen as legit right out of the gate. Guys shouldn't have to eat shit for 6 months, then suddenly get pushed. No product on earth but wrestling suppresses natural talent and holds it back until THEY want it. They really need to start booking MORE people like Ryback. And not just guys his size.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Nov 6, 2012 22:50:21 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan was a world champion a year and a half after debuting, and it wasn't until after he won the title when he started really getting over, and it exploded ironically AFTER he lost it. Lets just chill with the myth that he wasn't given any sort of push from the get go. And yeah, Its still organic if WWE wanted him to be a star. They just got it right. If the WWE wanted it and designed it, it means it wasn't organic. Organic happens without any sort of interference or manipulation. That is the literal definition of it. And that was the point. Pick a new word; don't try to redefine and square peg the meaning to suit your personal opinion. And once again, I didn't say that Daniel Bryan never got pushed. I'm saying that his initial booking was terrible and baffling based on his natural ability. A losing streak is never a help to anyone; its a detriment. His current popularity and appeal is in spite of his early booking, not because of it. Had he been booked right out of the hop as a submission machine that tapped guys, rather than some archaic plucky underdog, he'd be way ahead in the game. He'd still have been able to show the natural charisma that got him over anyway, but he'd have been seen as legit right out of the gate. Guys shouldn't have to eat s*** for 6 months, then suddenly get pushed. No product on earth but wrestling suppresses natural talent and holds it back until THEY want it. They really need to start booking MORE people like Ryback. And not just guys his size. Completely disagree. WWE wanting something and it happening CAN be organic. It just means they picked right. What WWE wants and what the fans want don't always clash. If they both line up, then it still is organic.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 6, 2012 22:59:33 GMT -5
If the WWE wanted it and designed it, it means it wasn't organic. Organic happens without any sort of interference or manipulation. That is the literal definition of it. And that was the point. Pick a new word; don't try to redefine and square peg the meaning to suit your personal opinion. And once again, I didn't say that Daniel Bryan never got pushed. I'm saying that his initial booking was terrible and baffling based on his natural ability. A losing streak is never a help to anyone; its a detriment. His current popularity and appeal is in spite of his early booking, not because of it. Had he been booked right out of the hop as a submission machine that tapped guys, rather than some archaic plucky underdog, he'd be way ahead in the game. He'd still have been able to show the natural charisma that got him over anyway, but he'd have been seen as legit right out of the gate. Guys shouldn't have to eat s*** for 6 months, then suddenly get pushed. No product on earth but wrestling suppresses natural talent and holds it back until THEY want it. They really need to start booking MORE people like Ryback. And not just guys his size. Completely disagree. WWE wanting something and it happening CAN be organic. It just means they picked right. What WWE wants and what the fans want don't always clash. If they both line up, then it still is organic. No, it can't. Organic means natural and unassisted. CHOOSE A DIFFERENT WORD.
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Nov 6, 2012 23:08:59 GMT -5
I'll start this by saying that organic is a poorly chosen word to try and label his push. To be perfectly honest I'd say that Ryback got over with the fans more naturally than Bryan did. I completely disagree with this Ryback got pushed to the moon from the getgo sentiment that a lot of you have. He was squashing no name jobbers on SD for a couple months. A couple time fillers on ppvs. He got more and more featured because the crowd was reacting so well to him. Have him beat some more midcarders.... more over. Cena gets hurt... um... send him in! Crowd loved it. He doesn't wrestle a Punk or Bryan style, so his matches won't be like that.
Bryan on the other hand, who I love, was NOT over with the casual crowd for quite a while. Smarks screaming for him does not equal over. He wasn't getting particularly strong reactions til he started screaming YES.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Nov 7, 2012 2:45:36 GMT -5
I'll say again. I don't care if it was organic. He's over, and he is a new star. Be happy.WWE pushed him and the people liked him for once. That hardly happens these days. You want a steak, you've been given a burger. Just eat the burger, because all we got before was a turd on a plate. We've got to start somewhere, and if WWE gets a new guy over this way and shows that they can have someone who is not Cena in a main event and the world doesn't implode, this is a step in the right direction. Ryback is not going to replace Cena as the number 1 guy. They already panicked and scrapped the survivor series match and threw in Cena. He doesn't need to replace Cena as number 1 guy. But we need SOMEONE to be number 2 guy, and who is there?
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Post by eJm on Nov 7, 2012 2:53:10 GMT -5
Ryback is not going to replace Cena as the number 1 guy. They already panicked and scrapped the survivor series match and threw in Cena. He doesn't need to replace Cena as number 1 guy. But we need SOMEONE to be number 2 guy, and who is there? Many people WWE started then gave up on for reasons none of us know about for the past 8 or so years.
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