Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 13:42:45 GMT -5
Well, I was curious about the claims towards the end of the video regarding ganguro and yamanba. A little bit of Googling led me to find that ganguro appears to be a performance of white California valley-girl types, identified by having blonde hair and tanned skin. So, in this case, if the Pokemon character does have some of that influence to it, then it's really whiteface, not blackface. Yamanba has been much more difficult to discern. Apparently Yama-uba is a cannibalistic witch, but for some reason comedian Toshiro Shimazaki's character Adamo-Chan keeps coming up, seemingly a caricature of South Pacific peoples. I think, too, that Adamo-Chan is a character that's been around for a few years? Perhaps in that sense, I guess Adamo-Chan constitutes a Yamamba performance? I can't find much about the character beyond some comments at the end of a blog post, especially linked to Yama-uba (more to Yamanba), but that doesn't prove anything really since there aren't enough facts. None of this is conclusive by any means, but the fact that Yama-uba is a cannibalistic witch and there is a stereotype of cannibalism towards South Pacific peoples leaves the innocent claim in the video that it's all performance without much history or context a bit suspect, at the very least, since that portion of the video is the least convincing. There's an argument in the video earlier I find to be much more persuasive that the character isn't racist, at least, compared to another character like Mr. Popo, but I have lingering doubts about whether or not it still constitutes 'darky iconography', albeit implicitly. Yamanba is just a fashion style paying homage to a cannibalistic mountain witch. WHY young Japanese girls want to intentionally dress up as a homage to a cannibalistic mountain witch, I have no clue. Hell, if I was a girl, I would too. You can't say Jynx isn't racist; you can say, I don't think Jynx is racist because that's perfectly valid. However, you aren't the arbitrator of what's racist and what isn't and neither am I. I don't think it's completely, 100% innocent since you have to ask yourself why the lips were exaggerated even more and why the orange skin tone translated into a definitively black one. I don't see anything malicious in that, however. There's racism and then there's natural curiosity about race; how many Africans/ African-Americans would your standard Japanese person see on a day to day basis? Bob Sapp pretty much made a career in Japan because he's a large African American. There's a blog about an African-American school teacher that records the funny interactions he has with his young students that largely focuses on racial and national differences. You could say that Jynx is a stereotype but if the character has it's roots in Noh drama then that's a bit like getting upset about the depictions of Italians and other types in Commedia dell'arte. It's all exaggeration. I'm half filipino and I'll see depictions that depict us as all brown and such. There was a thread a couple years back about a "Filipino candy bar" in a South American convenience store. Obviously it was a caricature and some people could find it distasteful. I didn't for the same reasons I don't find Jynx distasteful. If I see the pokemon, I'll think to myself "oh boy, I hope it doesn't offend someone" because I can see someone getting offended by it but it wouldn't bother me. However, I don't think I'm in the position to tell someone, "See, you can't get offended by this because this is its history...." because I don't have the right to say someone cannot be offended. I do have the right to tell them why their argument is moot and ultimately that I won't really pay much attention to it and, if they want to do something about it, I'm not the person to talk to.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 12, 2012 14:05:52 GMT -5
I watches another video, not this one, but one thing I did hear in another video on the topic of Jynx was that the character Jynx is based on, the mythical character itself is viewed somewhat as racist.
At the time, I never got the reference and didn't know what the fuss was about. Jynx is a pretty good Pokemon too, that was tough to use in the original games.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jul 12, 2012 14:30:16 GMT -5
Yamanba is just a fashion style paying homage to a cannibalistic mountain witch. WHY young Japanese girls want to intentionally dress up as a homage to a cannibalistic mountain witch, I have no clue. Hell, if I was a girl, I would too. You can't say Jynx isn't racist; you can say, I don't think Jynx is racist because that's perfectly valid. However, you aren't the arbitrator of what's racist and what isn't and neither am I. I don't think it's completely, 100% innocent since you have to ask yourself why the lips were exaggerated even more and why the orange skin tone translated into a definitively black one. I don't see anything malicious in that, however. There's racism and then there's natural curiosity about race; how many Africans/ African-Americans would your standard Japanese person see on a day to day basis? Bob Sapp pretty much made a career in Japan because he's a large African American. There's a blog about an African-American school teacher that records the funny interactions he has with his young students that largely focuses on racial and national differences. You could say that Jynx is a stereotype but if the character has it's roots in Noh drama then that's a bit like getting upset about the depictions of Italians and other types in Commedia dell'arte. It's all exaggeration. I'm half filipino and I'll see depictions that depict us as all brown and such. There was a thread a couple years back about a "Filipino candy bar" in a South American convenience store. Obviously it was a caricature and some people could find it distasteful. I didn't for the same reasons I don't find Jynx distasteful. If I see the pokemon, I'll think to myself "oh boy, I hope it doesn't offend someone" because I can see someone getting offended by it but it wouldn't bother me. However, I don't think I'm in the position to tell someone, "See, you can't get offended by this because this is its history...." because I don't have the right to say someone cannot be offended. I do have the right to tell them why their argument is moot and ultimately that I won't really pay much attention to it and, if they want to do something about it, I'm not the person to talk to. See, that would only be a problem if Jynx was based SOLELY on the Yamanba fashion/Noh costume. However, she/it isn't. If anything, Jynx has more connections to the various depictions of Yama-Uba in Japanese art. For example, that one picture towards the very end of the video of Yama-Uba that had a very dark grey/light black face.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 18:37:12 GMT -5
Hell, if I was a girl, I would too. You can't say Jynx isn't racist; you can say, I don't think Jynx is racist because that's perfectly valid. However, you aren't the arbitrator of what's racist and what isn't and neither am I. I don't think it's completely, 100% innocent since you have to ask yourself why the lips were exaggerated even more and why the orange skin tone translated into a definitively black one. I don't see anything malicious in that, however. There's racism and then there's natural curiosity about race; how many Africans/ African-Americans would your standard Japanese person see on a day to day basis? Bob Sapp pretty much made a career in Japan because he's a large African American. There's a blog about an African-American school teacher that records the funny interactions he has with his young students that largely focuses on racial and national differences. You could say that Jynx is a stereotype but if the character has it's roots in Noh drama then that's a bit like getting upset about the depictions of Italians and other types in Commedia dell'arte. It's all exaggeration. I'm half filipino and I'll see depictions that depict us as all brown and such. There was a thread a couple years back about a "Filipino candy bar" in a South American convenience store. Obviously it was a caricature and some people could find it distasteful. I didn't for the same reasons I don't find Jynx distasteful. If I see the pokemon, I'll think to myself "oh boy, I hope it doesn't offend someone" because I can see someone getting offended by it but it wouldn't bother me. However, I don't think I'm in the position to tell someone, "See, you can't get offended by this because this is its history...." because I don't have the right to say someone cannot be offended. I do have the right to tell them why their argument is moot and ultimately that I won't really pay much attention to it and, if they want to do something about it, I'm not the person to talk to. See, that would only be a problem if Jynx was based SOLELY on the Yamanba fashion/Noh costume. However, she/it isn't. If anything, Jynx has more connections to the various depictions of Yama-Uba in Japanese art. For example, that one picture towards the very end of the video of Yama-Uba that had a very dark grey/light black face. Well, I realize that pretty much any archetype in popular culture has multiple influences or incarnations. My whole point is that there are likely some racial overtones; whether that's enough to warrant the figure to be considered racist is up to interpretation. I personally don't think it is for the reasons I listed in the above post.
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Krimzon
Crow T. Robot
This guy is the man!
R.I.P. Deadpool
Posts: 43,870
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Post by Krimzon on Jul 12, 2012 18:48:12 GMT -5
People need to forget about Jynx. Go after Hypno. That's the real monster. Children aren't safe with Hypno in the world!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 18:49:45 GMT -5
People need to forget about Jynx. Go after Hypno. That's the real monster. Children aren't safe with Hypno in the world! Togepi's worse. Hey kids, you know those eggs in the fridge? Well, it's about to hatch at any moment and, when it does, it's going to move a bunch a shit around.
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Post by Red Impact on Jul 12, 2012 21:06:06 GMT -5
Is the whole jynx thing still a controversy? Because I can't remember hearing about it for a long time, which makes a 10 minute video about it now seem a tad over-the-top.
But on topic, while I never got the big deal, if you're going to sell a product to a new market, it sort of behooves you to research your prospective audience and see if there's anything major that could cause such a controversy. Even if they didn't intend for it to look like a Sambo doll in drag, that's what came out of it.
Beyond that, how were black people depicted in early anime/manga? I'd imagine most of the image of black people came from Western culture, which was pretty racist for a long time. It wouldn't surprise me if some of those traits were passed onto black characters in early stuff before they became more familiar with black people.
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Post by Evilution E5150 on Jul 12, 2012 21:24:10 GMT -5
i never really thought of it as racist until i saw someone compare Jynx to Nicki Minaj
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Krimzon
Crow T. Robot
This guy is the man!
R.I.P. Deadpool
Posts: 43,870
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Post by Krimzon on Jul 12, 2012 21:26:22 GMT -5
i never really thought of it as racist until i saw someone compare Jynx to Nicki Minaj That's ridiculous. Jynx is actually useful.
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Just Jay
Unicron
DIESEL!?!?!
Posts: 3,282
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Post by Just Jay on Jul 12, 2012 23:45:16 GMT -5
Jynx isn't racist. I agree with what was said on the video.
Wham Bam Rock on the other hand...yesh.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jul 12, 2012 23:53:16 GMT -5
Don't worry, all will be forgiven when Jynx saves the town of Rock Ridge.
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erisi236
Fry's dog Seymour
... enjoys the rich, smooth taste of Camels.
Not good! Not good! Not good!
Posts: 21,904
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Post by erisi236 on Jul 12, 2012 23:54:25 GMT -5
Jynx probably said "niggardly" or "naggers" and people got all in a huff and called her a racist right?
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Post by Starshine on Jul 12, 2012 23:56:51 GMT -5
The intent isn't racist, but it's definitely sambo in style.
But it would be so easy to fix, just recolour the face dark purple or something. The fact they haven't changed it like that it is a little messed up.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Jul 12, 2012 23:57:31 GMT -5
Well, I was curious about the claims towards the end of the video regarding ganguro and yamanba. A little bit of Googling led me to find that ganguro appears to be a performance of white California valley-girl types, identified by having blonde hair and tanned skin. So, in this case, if the Pokemon character does have some of that influence to it, then it's really whiteface, not blackface. Yamanba has been much more difficult to discern. Apparently Yama-uba is a cannibalistic witch, but for some reason comedian Toshiro Shimazaki's character Adamo-Chan keeps coming up, seemingly a caricature of South Pacific peoples. I think, too, that Adamo-Chan is a character that's been around for a few years? Perhaps in that sense, I guess Adamo-Chan constitutes a Yamamba performance? I can't find much about the character beyond some comments at the end of a blog post, especially linked to Yama-uba (more to Yamanba), but that doesn't prove anything really since there aren't enough facts. None of this is conclusive by any means, but the fact that Yama-uba is a cannibalistic witch and there is a stereotype of cannibalism towards South Pacific peoples leaves the innocent claim in the video that it's all performance without much history or context a bit suspect, at the very least, since that portion of the video is the least convincing. There's an argument in the video earlier I find to be much more persuasive that the character isn't racist, at least, compared to another character like Mr. Popo, but I have lingering doubts about whether or not it still constitutes 'darky iconography', albeit implicitly. Yamanba is just a fashion style paying homage to a cannibalistic mountain witch. WHY young Japanese girls want to intentionally dress up as a homage to a cannibalistic mountain witch, I have no clue. Because it's Japan. Insanity is their specialty.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jul 13, 2012 0:05:15 GMT -5
The developers of Pokemon have responded to the alleged racism with a statement that began with "Me so solly!".
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jul 13, 2012 2:32:03 GMT -5
The intent isn't racist, but it's definitely sambo in style. But it would be so easy to fix, just recolour the face dark purple or something. The fact they haven't changed it like that it is a little messed up. ......They did. Jynx hasn't had a black face in the games since the Japanese versions of Gold and Silver, I believe. They changed her skin to a purple color starting with the Western release of Gold and Silver.
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Post by Starshine on Jul 13, 2012 2:54:02 GMT -5
The intent isn't racist, but it's definitely sambo in style. But it would be so easy to fix, just recolour the face dark purple or something. The fact they haven't changed it like that it is a little messed up. ......They did. Jynx hasn't had a black face in the games since the Japanese versions of Gold and Silver, I believe. They changed her skin to a purple color starting with the Western release of Gold and Silver. Well there you go, case closed.
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Post by celticjobber on Jul 13, 2012 3:03:04 GMT -5
That...is f***ing ridiculous. Did it ever occur to these idiots that the "slur" going unnoticed for 27 years was because THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY SAID!? That's nothing compared to this:
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jul 13, 2012 3:11:43 GMT -5
That...is f***ing ridiculous. Did it ever occur to these idiots that the "slur" going unnoticed for 27 years was because THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY SAID!? That's nothing compared to this: I.........I....... *sigh* The NAACP has done a lot of great things for advancing the civil rights of black Americans, but then they pull crap like this.
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Post by Long A, Short A on Jul 13, 2012 8:58:13 GMT -5
This was always one of those things I thought white people brought up but black people did not really carry about. In fact I van honestly say I have never heard/seen a black person get upset over this. Was always my white friends bringing it up. Most of my black family made jokes about Jynx's looks, but they weren't based on race.
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