Diversity in the Comic Universes?

[Welfare Willis]

I was watching The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and for some reason I got to thinking about diversity in the comics universe. I'm not an avid reader of the comics, but I follow the television and movies fairly well. Maybe it's because the more popular comics from Marvel came out during the Sixties, but it seems like marvel has a more diverse roster of superheroes than DC does. Characters such as Luke Cage, Black Panther, and Falcon have had their own series and are well respected members of the universe. Arguably the Samuel Jackson version of Nick Fury is the default Fury outside the comics themselves. Women don't just seem like male based heroines like supergirl or batgirl. You have characters like Dust and Northstar as positive portrayals of their communities.

I know DC has grown over the years as well with characters like Kat Kane and John Stewart. I'm not necessarily trying to knock DC or turn this into marvel vs DC, but the recent discussion of the new 52 has gotten me curious as well. So is my thinking wrong on this?

[stinger]

The Sam Jackson Fury is now in the comics too, basically.

And, well, I think DC is trying.

The new Green Lantern is Arab-American.

The Earth 2 Alan Scott is homosexual.

You've got Cyborg on the Justice League as well, another prominent African-American.

But yeah, a lot of DC's heroines are just female versions of male superheroes. Even Wonder Woman kind of looks like a female Superman (even though she really isn't.)

[Welfare Willis]

Jan 14, 2013 13:42:01 GMT -5 stinger said:

The Sam Jackson Fury is now in the comics too, basically.

And, well, I think DC is trying.

The new Green Lantern is Arab-American.

The Earth 2 Alan Scott is homosexual.

You've got Cyborg on the Justice League as well, another prominent African-American.

But yeah, a lot of DC's heroines are just female versions of male superheroes. Even Wonder Woman kind of looks like a female Superman (even though she really isn't.)

I did forget about Cyborg. Good call. I know one of the Bat-man's in the Batman Inc. line was a French Muslim. It just seemed odd to me that Marvel seemingly has a more diverse cast than DC does. That could be because civil rights has always been one of the underlying themes in the x-men books.

I was going to bring up Ms. Marvel as well, but wikipedia reminded me she started off obtaining her powers from Captain Marvel. Still I think it's arguable that she has become more prominent than her male counterpart.

[Koda, Master Crunchyroller]

On DC's side don't forget Steel.

[SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts]

DC has a new Ray who's Korean-American and a miniseries that probably isn't getting a series. The character however was changed to Korean later and he's adopted by white American parents. Feels like it he could be white and it wouldn't change a thing with his character.

There's also the Atom who's now Chinese. Karate Kid of the Legion of Super-Heroes is half Japanese, half American.

[JDviant]

If you look at both major companies, you're going to see a distinct lack of minority characters in prominent positions. I don't think either company does them particularly well, but there's a lot of reasons for minority characters to not sell as well. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but the longest uninterrupted run by a solo minority character in the big 2 currently Ultimate Comics Spider-Man at 19 issues and several Nu52 books at 14/15 (Fury of Firestorm/Batwing). If we're counting white woman you have the eternal Wonder Woman and a few more choices from DC that are constant properties, with Captain Marvel at 11 issues from Marvel.

Fearless Defenders will be coming out soon, and Brian Wood's X-Men is all-female, so there's a boost coming from that, but those again are team-books and thats where you'll find the most diversity.

[Talent Name]

Also even though its older DC Black Manta, Black Lightning, Tsunami and in the Young Justice cartoon Aquaman is African American

[Koda, Master Crunchyroller]

Jan 14, 2013 16:21:57 GMT -5 Talent Name said:

Also even though its older DC Black Manta, Black Lightning, Tsunami and in the Young Justice cartoon Aquaman is African American

Not just the Young Justice Aqualad, the most recent pre-52(I say this as I haven't kept up with New 52 DC, so I don't know if they rebooted Aqualad or not) Aqualad was black as well.

[Red Impact]

You also have Bumblebee and Malcolm Jones, who have appeared as heroes in DC animated shows, as well as Jaime Reyes, the new Blue Beetle. And there's Static Shock and Icon, who DC acquired and still use, not to mention villains like Amanda Waller and Black Manta. Then you have lesser known ones like Mister Terrific.

They both have their fair share of minority characters, but I think a lot of it just ends up coming down to tokenism, they introduce a character as a minority because they need a minority member of a team. The characters may end up being fleshed out and a good character after the fact, but I think the initial thought for a lot of them was the fact that someone decided they needed a black or a hispanic character. That's why a lot of early black characters were named Black Falcon or Black Lightning.

[Sc]

Marvel's Jubilee is Chinese and DC's Black Bat is part Asian, I think she's half-Chinese but I'm not 100% sure.

[Bub (BLM)]

You have to take into account that a lot of DC Comics' most popular characters and universes were created between the late 1930's and early 1950's, whereas Marvel got it's guns blazing in the 60's and 70's. It's a true sign of the times.

[Legion]

Young Avengers launches soon, main characters are a teen gay couple.

Wouldn't have got that ten years ago, and now look.

Times they are a changing.

Thankfully.

[Koda, Master Crunchyroller]

Also can't believe I forgot them but Cassandra Cain and Damian Wayne are half Asian and half Arabic, respectively.

[Welfare Willis]

Jan 14, 2013 17:02:25 GMT -5 Bub (BLM) said:

You have to take into account that a lot of DC Comics' most popular characters and universes were created between the late 1930's and early 1950's, whereas Marvel got it's guns blazing in the 60's and 70's. It's a true sign of the times.

Yeah, that's my thinking as well. Like I said I'm not trying to blame DC for anything as I think JD hit the nail on the head. Both companies have done poorly in this regard. I could be totally wrong in my way of thinking, but it just seemed to me Marvel has more diverse characters in more prominent roles. Of course, That could be in part because some of the biggest comic movies on the marvel side have been the X-Men and Avengers franchises. Like I said before civil rights has always been one of the themes of the X-Men.

DC's movies have been singular hero films like Green Lantern, The Dark Knight, and Superman.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Jan 14, 2013 16:25:45 GMT -5 Koda, Master Crunchyroller said:

Jan 14, 2013 16:21:57 GMT -5 Talent Name said:

Also even though its older DC Black Manta, Black Lightning, Tsunami and in the Young Justice cartoon Aquaman is African American

Not just the Young Justice Aqualad, the most recent pre-52(I say this as I haven't kept up with New 52 DC, so I don't know if they rebooted Aqualad or not) Aqualad was black as well.

they did reboot him out. Mera's too young to have an adult son. for that matter, it seems Arthur Jr. never existed either. main problem was the comic version of Aqualad was too different from his cartoon counterpart. aside from being a black guy whose father is Black Manta he was an entirely different character. it's odd because DC's usually pretty good about synchronizing their cartoon and comic verses, at least as much as they can.

as for diversity, it's kind of hard to do. you have to remember that the majority of classic heroes come from a time when they were all white americans. on top of that it's very difficult to elevate characters without it feeling forced (case in point, Cyborg's inclusion in the original Justice League mutilated the history of the Teen Titans, and he still sticks out like a sore thumb as someone who doesn't belong there). it's one of those things I wish would change but there's no easy answer, especially since minority hero books don't tend to sell very well, so it's hard to elevate new heroes (hell, it's hard to elevate new characters period without fans crapping on it. the one good thing Bendis did on Avengers was push to include more recent creations like Echo, Ares and Sentry and aside from Ares all the newer characters he tried spotlighting either didn't click or were actively shit on).

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Jan 14, 2013 17:19:51 GMT -5 Legion said:

Young Avengers launches soon, main characters are a teen gay couple.

Wouldn't have got that ten years ago, and now look.

Times they are a changing.

Thankfully.

ten years ago one of DC's critical darlings had a gay Superman and Batman analogue as 2 of its most prominent members, and the first volume of said book (The Authority) ended with them getting married. DC actually beat Marvel to the gay marriage punch by about 10 years. they just didn't feel the need to scream it from the mountaintops. it's not as new as you'd think, there's just more of them now.

[JDviant]

Authority #8 in 2000 is when Apollo and Midnighter were revealed as a couple, but they're not teens so the point stands XD

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Jan 15, 2013 20:18:06 GMT -5 JDviant said:

Authority #8 in 2000 is when Apollo and Midnighter were revealed as a couple, but they're not teens so the point stands XD

and that moment is still, IMO one of the sweetest things Warren Ellis ever wrote. he didn't overplay it or anything. it was just one person concerned for their lover's safety, and it just turned out that lover was another man. but I digress.

[Bang Bang Bart]

Jan 14, 2013 13:52:58 GMT -5 Welfare Willis said:

Jan 14, 2013 13:42:01 GMT -5 stinger said:

The Sam Jackson Fury is now in the comics too, basically.

And, well, I think DC is trying.

The new Green Lantern is Arab-American.

The Earth 2 Alan Scott is homosexual.

You've got Cyborg on the Justice League as well, another prominent African-American.

But yeah, a lot of DC's heroines are just female versions of male superheroes. Even Wonder Woman kind of looks like a female Superman (even though she really isn't.)

I did forget about Cyborg. Good call. I know one of the Bat-man's in the Batman Inc. line was a French Muslim. It just seemed odd to me that Marvel seemingly has a more diverse cast than DC does. That could be because civil rights has always been one of the underlying themes in the x-men books.

I was going to bring up Ms. Marvel as well, but wikipedia reminded me she started off obtaining her powers from Captain Marvel. Still I think it's arguable that she has become more prominent than her male counterpart.

I'd say if she shows up in a Marvel Studios film and gets the subsequent push springing from that appearance, it would be a complete certainty.

Also, the Spider-Man in the Ultimate Universe is half-Hispanic and half-African-American.

And of course, there's the current Blue Beetle, who's of Hispanic origin, even in the New 52.

[Allie Kitsune]

I know this makes me a racist bigot, but I don't care.

I don't think it's really "progress" until it's not a big deal, and therefore a character doesn't need a "push" just for not being a white male.

It shouldn't really matter what they look like or their religion/who the writer has them f***ing.

A company could re-boot a character (or a legacy character) as someone with my exact ethnic background and (too broken to talk about) sexuality, and I still don't think I'd identify with them.

But again, I'm a racist bigot (apparently).