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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 14:25:28 GMT -5
Let's break this down. You're saying that they actually do get enough time. Because, sometimes, they get 3-5 minutes, for an entire division, which is longer than some arbitrary matches by upper midcarders that are featured heavily and have long matches often. They got 1-2 more minutes a week, again, for an entire division, and now, time is no longer a problem and the divas should just all...get over. This is what you're saying. Do you think you're correct? I'm saying this.... The "Divas only get 1-2 minutes to wrestle " thing still comes up for some reason, even though they now regularly get 3-5 minutes to wrestlers. It seems like there's regularly 3-5 matches on Raw that go under 3 minutes, yet it seems that's only considered unfair when it happens to the Divas. This despite that fact there's lowcarders on the roster who make it onto TV less regularly than Aksana does, let alone a top Diva. That's true, but there's only 8 divas on the roster compared to 50+ male wrestlers. Of course some lower-midcarders won't get much TV time. And even if some midcarders do get less time on Raw, they usually make it up by appearing again on Smackdown, Main Event or Superstars.
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xCompackx
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Post by xCompackx on Jan 21, 2013 14:31:59 GMT -5
Just my opinion, but you can have as long a Divas match as you want but if the crowd doesn't care, it's not gonna work. Kaitlyn vs Eve last week was a genuinely good match and got the crowd into it, but WWE has pretty much trained live crowds to treat these matches as "bathroom breaks" or "concession breaks" so changing that perception is going to take time (and I'm not trying to sound sexist because I really do enjoy a good Divas match).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 14:36:29 GMT -5
Let's break this down. You're saying that they actually do get enough time. Because, sometimes, they get 3-5 minutes, for an entire division, which is longer than some arbitrary matches by upper midcarders that are featured heavily and have long matches often. They got 1-2 more minutes a week, again, for an entire division, and now, time is no longer a problem and the divas should just all...get over. This is what you're saying. Do you think you're correct? I'm saying this.... The "Divas only get 1-2 minutes to wrestle " thing still comes up for some reason, even though they now regularly get 3-5 minutes to wrestlers. It seems like there's regularly 3-5 matches on Raw that go under 3 minutes, yet it seems that's only considered unfair when it happens to the Divas. This despite that fact there's lowcarders on the roster who make it onto TV less regularly than Aksana does, let alone a top Diva. I see what you mean. I think it's equal, people are tired of seeing Tyson Kidd have 2 minute matches on TV once every 2 months, too, or never seeing Zack Ryder/Alex Riley/JTG on TV. There's just more wrestlers like CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, Daniel Bryan that are getting a lot of time, so we're able to focus on them. There's no shortage of mens' wrestling. The IC, US, WHC, Tag Team, and WWE titles are all featured strongly. Maybe a problem is that 6 titles is too damn many right now. I'm not really womens' wrestling fan. I don't dislike it either, but in it's current form it's obvious to me that the divas are a complete afterthought when it comes to the creative process. They get the scraps of TV time, and the scraps of how much "product" creative can churn out every week. That's why I say the biggest problem facing their division is the lack of time, but it's not just time, it's direction and attention too. Lack of talent is an issue, but that can be fixed. Even if they had a great roster of women, they'd only have time to use 2 of them for 3-5 minutes a week, that's just not enough time to cement yourself in the minds' of the fans.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 14:36:55 GMT -5
I'm saying this.... The "Divas only get 1-2 minutes to wrestle " thing still comes up for some reason, even though they now regularly get 3-5 minutes to wrestlers. It seems like there's regularly 3-5 matches on Raw that go under 3 minutes, yet it seems that's only considered unfair when it happens to the Divas. This despite that fact there's lowcarders on the roster who make it onto TV less regularly than Aksana does, let alone a top Diva. That's true, but there's only 8 divas on the roster compared to 50+ male wrestlers. Of course some lower-midcarders won't get much TV time. And even if some midcarders do get less time on Raw, they usually make it up by appearing again on Smackdown, Main Event or Superstars. And some of the male roster don't appear on any of those shows more than maybe once a month, yet if I just went by what I read, I would think every Diva from the jobbers to the champion was lower on the pecking order than JTG, Swagger, the Usos.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 14:46:33 GMT -5
I'm saying this.... The "Divas only get 1-2 minutes to wrestle " thing still comes up for some reason, even though they now regularly get 3-5 minutes to wrestlers. It seems like there's regularly 3-5 matches on Raw that go under 3 minutes, yet it seems that's only considered unfair when it happens to the Divas. This despite that fact there's lowcarders on the roster who make it onto TV less regularly than Aksana does, let alone a top Diva. I see what you mean. I think it's equal, people are tired of seeing Tyson Kidd have 2 minute matches on TV once every 2 months, too, or never seeing Zack Ryder/Alex Riley/JTG on TV. Eh, I can't agree with that. Those guys wish they had the amount of threads the Divas do. And in Ryder's case, a thread about getting him more TV time and pushing him a little harder would probably end up with the for/aganist spread being pretty close.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Jan 21, 2013 14:56:35 GMT -5
I think more time will help, I always thought Alicia Fox was terrible and would usually fast-forward her matches however after she was given more time on NXT I realised she can wrestle given the chance.
However as already said it's more about how they're presented on Raw than how they wrestle. Emma on NXT managed to get a three page thread just by doing a weird dance, the divas on Raw barely get anything like that to differentiate themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 14:57:54 GMT -5
That's true, but there's only 8 divas on the roster compared to 50+ male wrestlers. Of course some lower-midcarders won't get much TV time. And even if some midcarders do get less time on Raw, they usually make it up by appearing again on Smackdown, Main Event or Superstars. And some of the male roster don't appear on any of those shows more than maybe once a month, yet if I just went by what I read, I would think every Diva from the jobbers to the champion was lower on the pecking order than JTG, Swagger, the Usos. But like I said, the male roster is 50+ strong. Of course some jobbers aren't going to be featured, because the rest of the air-time is taken up by other male wrestlers. Its tougher for a lower-midcarder to get more than 2-3 minutes of airtime when he's fighting with 50+ other guys to get on TV. Which is what makes it more baffling that the divas division is so thin and yet they barely get any time. For example, it took over four months for the divas to get a match on Saturday Morning Slam, and there hasn't been a divas match on Superstars for over three months. And I don't think anyone has claimed that JTG is higher-up the card than the divas.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 15:00:49 GMT -5
I see what you mean. I think it's equal, people are tired of seeing Tyson Kidd have 2 minute matches on TV once every 2 months, too, or never seeing Zack Ryder/Alex Riley/JTG on TV. Eh, I can't agree with that. Those guys wish they had the amount of threads the Divas do. And in Ryder's case, a thread about getting him more TV time and pushing him a little harder would probably end up with the for/aganist spread being pretty close. The divas are just more of a concept to get behind. There's fans of the jobbers that don't get on TV that sing their praises but it's more on an individual basis. As far as Ryder goes....yeah, I'd be in the against column.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Jan 21, 2013 15:14:08 GMT -5
Even thinking of it in terms of how much time "the divas" should get, they're like second class citizens It should be how much time Kaitlyn does get, how much time should Natalya get, how much time should Tamina get, how much time should Layla get, etc. There's no focus on them as individuals, besides our friend AJ Lee anyway. It's just "okay filler time, send in the divas!" Now, honestly now, legit, do you think WWE would achieve any kind of success beyond our women's wrestling crazy forum with such an approach? I mean success not in terms of pulling in the Shimmer audience but like maintaining or growing the audience they have now? You could really say the same about the midcard. Most casuals are there for only a handful of people; Cena, Punk, Sheamus and the like. Many of them probably wouldn't even notice if Justin Gabriel got released, let alone didn't get a chance to wrestle. It's not about Divas = boom period, it's about capitalizing on an audience that whether or not you or we or anyone else thinks is big enough, does exist and will buy tickets and PPV's. I'm sick of this viewpoint that unless it singlehandedly promises to bring ratings back up to 5-point-something, it doesn't deserve any effort.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 21, 2013 15:18:54 GMT -5
It's not going to get better or worse, it's going to be in the same nothingness it's always been.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 15:19:32 GMT -5
And some of the male roster don't appear on any of those shows more than maybe once a month, yet if I just went by what I read, I would think every Diva from the jobbers to the champion was lower on the pecking order than JTG, Swagger, the Usos. But like I said, the male roster is 50+ strong. Of course some jobbers aren't going to be featured, because the rest of the air-time is taken up by other male wrestlers. Its tougher for a lower-midcarder to get more than 2-3 minutes of airtime when he's fighting with 50+ other guys to get on TV. Which is what makes it more baffling that the divas division is so thin and yet they barely get any time. For example, it took over four months for the divas to get a match on Saturday Morning Slam, and there hasn't been a divas match on Superstars for over three months. And I don't think anyone has claimed that JTG is higher-up the card than the divas. It's not claiming JTG is higher up. It's acting like the Divas are at that same level when they're actually clearly above it.
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JCBaggee
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Post by JCBaggee on Jan 21, 2013 15:39:30 GMT -5
The problem at this point is that they're kept to themselves. The Diva's Division has little to no interaction with the rest of the program. Think back to the attitude era, when the Divas were involved in everything.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Jan 21, 2013 17:08:42 GMT -5
Now, honestly now, legit, do you think WWE would achieve any kind of success beyond our women's wrestling crazy forum with such an approach? I mean success not in terms of pulling in the Shimmer audience but like maintaining or growing the audience they have now? You could really say the same about the midcard. Do you equate the potential promise of the midcard to the potential promise of the divas?
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543Y2J
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Post by 543Y2J on Jan 21, 2013 17:20:59 GMT -5
If they build it around Kaitlyn, AJ (back in ring, not promos), Naomi and Paige then I have all the confidence that they could rebuild it up to a damn good group of workers,,especially with SDR in developmental to help. Oh and bring back the Women's Championship, using video packages and promos to show its importance and why its coming out of retirement, and retire the Divas Championship.
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Post by Unaffiliated on Jan 21, 2013 18:28:53 GMT -5
I think the "Divas Division" gets picked on too much because it is easy to lump them together as a group.
What exactly are the divisions among the male wrestlers? As little TV time as the divas division gets, there's a whole bunch of male wrestlers out there who get even less time. Why not bunch them into a division as well and complain about them not getting any time?
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BigWill
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Post by BigWill on Jan 21, 2013 18:38:27 GMT -5
I think the "Divas Division" gets picked on too much because it is easy to lump them together as a group. What exactly are the divisions among the male wrestlers? As little TV time as the divas division gets, there's a whole bunch of male wrestlers out there who get even less time. Why not bunch them into a division as well and complain about them not getting any time? They're not part of a division, which is why they aren't bunched up into one, but people complain about various superstars not getting on TV all the time. Right now there's a 5 page thread about wanting Michael McGillicutty to get a push.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Jan 21, 2013 23:34:03 GMT -5
You could really say the same about the midcard. Do you equate the potential promise of the midcard to the potential promise of the divas? Well, when you go quote mining like that and butchering what people actually say, you can gather just about anything. The "you could really say the same about the midcard" refers exclusively to their immediate effect on buyrates and ticket sales; fact is, Alex Riley, Tyson Kidd, and many others have all the talent and potential in the world, but no one's coming to see them - no more in droves than they're coming to see the Divas, anyway. Come the Rumble, no one's gonna be paying attention to the Divas or the lowcard; the attention is gonna be exclusively on three to five people in Rock, Punk, Cena, and maybe Sheamus and Ryback.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Jan 22, 2013 0:38:39 GMT -5
Do you equate the potential promise of the midcard to the potential promise of the divas? Well, when you go quote mining like that and butchering what people actually say, you can gather just about anything. The "you could really say the same about the midcard" refers exclusively to their immediate effect on buyrates and ticket sales; fact is, Alex Riley, Tyson Kidd, and many others have all the talent and potential in the world, but no one's coming to see them - no more in droves than they're coming to see the Divas, anyway. Come the Rumble, no one's gonna be paying attention to the Divas or the lowcard; the attention is gonna be exclusively on three to five people in Rock, Punk, Cena, and maybe Sheamus and Ryback. What I was trying to point out was that the midcard have the potential to become main eventers. Divas don't. Most main eventers began as midcarders. In terms of an investment it's intellectually dishonest to compare midcarders to divas. To this point, WWE has not undertaken a radical direction so as to place women's wrestling on the same level as men's wrestling. When they do, it would be fair to equate the women's division to the men's midcard. I guess I'm just terribly pessimistic, because I'd put Laycool among the most entertaining acts of any in recent years, and I'd love to see a flourishing women's wrestling division. But I'm also a realist. I feel like the way things go now, and the way the dynamics in American wrestling operate, there isn't a compelling argument for token abritrary halfhearted women acts being given more than 15min per 2hrs of show.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jan 22, 2013 1:19:18 GMT -5
What I was trying to point out was that the midcard have the potential to become main eventers. Divas don't.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2013 1:35:03 GMT -5
What I was trying to point out was that the midcard have the potential to become main eventers. Divas don't. So is Vickie a main eventer, too? She works with the top guys in a non-wrestling role just as AJ does.
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