Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Mar 7, 2013 23:33:42 GMT -5
Seeing the Iron Patriot armor in the Iron Man 3 trailers actually cheeses me off a bit, because it reminds me of how thoroughly Marvel has ruined one of their greatest villain characters. Norman Osborn was THE Spider Man villain, every bit what The Joker is for Batman. Outside of being one of the first, he was also easily the most personal for being Harry's father and one of the few to know Peter Parker's identity. And of course the death of Gwen Stacy elevated him to levels of villainy never before seen in comics and effectively ended the Silver Age. To me, the fact that he STAYED dead for so long but still caused Spidey no end of problems through various plots he had set in motion or other villains he inspired made him all the greater as a villain-its one thing for a villain to get resurrected and clash with the hero again, but for the villain to still be menacing the hero long after his death takes someone pretty dern evil.
I suppose that it was a only a matter of time before Norman was resurrected, but because of what an unbelievable villain he was his return should have been HUGE, a shocker that fans would remember for ages. Instead Marvel squandered it as an afternote to the convoluted mess called The Clone Saga. And the whole idea of him and Gwen Stacy having children was something Vince Russo would have come up with. And ever since...whoo boy. Norman is a SPIDER MAN villain, so trying to branch him off into company-wide titles was completely out of character. Dressing him up in a spangly suit of Iron Man armor? Oh Puh-Leez! Norman should have been reverted to the psychotic, sadistic, arch-nemesis that he is meant to be, not a retro Lex Luthor clone. Norman Osborn is the GREEN GOBLIN, the greatest enemy of Spider Man, he is not an evil Iron Man. Period.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 8, 2013 0:03:29 GMT -5
He was better dead as the specter of Spidey's 2nd greatest failure.
But then, I liked Harry taking up the mantle better anyway.
Totally agreed on them making him Luthor Lite. Hated that
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Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Mar 8, 2013 0:38:04 GMT -5
I actually like the Iron Patriot. The armor looks really awesome, but I think I would have liked it better if the armor had been made as a sort of apology from Tony Stark to the anti-registration heroes after Cap's temporary death.
However, while I agree with you completely on all your points, there is one thing that pisses me off about Marvel's treatment of Norman Osborn/The Green Goblin more than anything. Before his return, Spiderman had NEVER had a huge public victory over him and put him in prison. In fact, the Goblin had never suffered such a fate ever...always managing to escape into the night to haunt Peter further. Instead of setting up this big event and giving Peter a well deserved big win over one of his greatest foes, Marvel pisses it away by having Luke f***ing Cage beat the Goblin. Not only did Cage beat him in public...he humiliated him by badly beating him...UNMASKED him in front of everyone...AND sent him to prison!
I've tried to control it, and I think I've done better than I have with my hatred of Batman, but I have a serious disdain for Luke Cage because of this. The moron was a G-List super hero...but because Bendis and Quasada adored him, he stole Spidey's great victory away. I can't help but equate it to wrestling...where the company is trying to push a jobber or guy who just never clicked with the fans and I'm just one of the ones that isn't buying it. Luke got the big W over the Green Goblin...Luke became leader of the Avengers...Luke was second in command behind Captain America in the big dumb Civil War event...Luke's been shoved down my throat in various video games where he has no business being in (Spiderman: Web of Shadows is the one I can think of right off the top of my head)...Luke is appearing as a major player in cartoons he has no business being in (Ultimate Spiderman). I can't stand the character, and have been hoping that Joey Q and Brian B will get fired or something and somebody will either off Luke Cage or tear him down a few billion pegs. He doesn't deserve to be pushed as a major super hero in the Marvel Universe, period.
And don't dare tell me I'm racist...Monica Rambeau, War Machine, Black Panther, and Storm ALL deserve the monster push Luke has gotten, and I'd be happy with any of them being in the same situation (with the exception of stealing Spidey's win over the Green Goblin).
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Mar 8, 2013 6:07:51 GMT -5
Doctor Octopus is Spider-Man's archenemy.
You can't be an arch enemy if you have multiple people behind the mask and have a variant similar villain flying about (Hobgoblin), heck killing Gwen does not make you archenemy by default.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2013 9:02:47 GMT -5
Turning him into an Avengers villain was a colossal blunder, IMO. Hell, being put in charge of the Thunderbolts by the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen in a Marvel comic - that Tbolts run was incredibly dismal to read (Ellis' issues were ok but it deteriorated from there until Jeff Parker corrected the course some time later). They put him in Iron Man armor and with a team of super invincible villains, and kept giving him wins that didn't seem logical. It was like the Marvel execs were performing college frat boy pranks on the readers and taunting them. Thankfully, Bendis crippled the man by the end of his run, and I believe he's due back in the Spiderverse now, {Spoiler}as the Goblin - I think that was him in the outfit at the end of #4 , which is a step in the right direction. But please keep him away from the larger scope that they thrust him in. And if he has to be killed off again, I don't think we'd shed too many tears.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Mar 8, 2013 10:24:38 GMT -5
I actually like the Iron Patriot. The armor looks really awesome, but I think I would have liked it better if the armor had been made as a sort of apology from Tony Stark to the anti-registration heroes after Cap's temporary death. I would've liked Iron Patriot if they introduced it as an armor for Rhodey to use (kinda like in Iron Man 3, but way before all that).
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 8, 2013 10:31:14 GMT -5
the biggest problem was that Norman was unsuited to the role. he's a psycho mad scientist who the whole world KNOWS is a murderous dickbag, so trying to turn him into Lex Luthor light made no sense. it was beyond his capabilities. he's not a genius superspy type so putting him in charge of SHIELD felt like putting a square peg into a round hole. he's at his best when he's in crazy Green Goblin mode or about to become crazy Green Goblin mode, so of course they put him in a role that depended on him not doing the one thing that makes him entertaining. he wasn't able to hold onto his position through any effort of his own it depended on writing the entire superhero community and indeed the people of the United States as total idiots. it was a text-book idiot plot. on top of that when he finally lost it, it wasn't because of his own failures, it was because he himself was suddenly being written as a total idiot.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 8, 2013 10:36:49 GMT -5
I actually like the Iron Patriot. The armor looks really awesome, but I think I would have liked it better if the armor had been made as a sort of apology from Tony Stark to the anti-registration heroes after Cap's temporary death. I would've liked Iron Patriot if they introduced it as an armor for Rhodey to use (kinda like in Iron Man 3, but way before all that). it should've been Ezekiel Stane. he would've fit the role like a glove. even if he is just a ripoff of his more interesting daddy at least the role would've suited him.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
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Post by Sephiroth on Mar 8, 2013 11:03:56 GMT -5
Bringing him back for the Clone Saga could have been great. As stated above, he was still tormenting Spidey from beyond the grave for years, and as I recall he did create the first Spider Man clone, so it would have fit as an epic scheme he had in mind all along. You could even have implied that having his son take over the Green Goblin mantle, and perhaps even the other various spin offs like Hobgoblin, were all part of some grand master plan too. That would have suited his character perfectly.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Mar 8, 2013 23:26:41 GMT -5
I might add that the part that bugged me even more was that expanding his scope as a villain should have been fairly easy; as I recall he did have some run ins with other heroes, even though he was primarily a Spidey villain. Case in point; having him sometimes face off with Iron Man would not have been hard to write because as a millionaire industrialist it is perfectly loglical that Norman would have some dealings with Tony Stark. Alternatively, a run in Daredevil would have been doable because again-Norman would naturally have dealings with the Kingpin. You could even have thrown him somewhat into The Avengers by having him loosely connected to guys like The Mandarin, AIM, or Hydra. But how they ended up doing it was just...gah!
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 8, 2013 23:54:08 GMT -5
the biggest problem was that Norman was unsuited to the role. he's a psycho mad scientist who the whole world KNOWS is a murderous dickbag, so trying to turn him into Lex Luthor light made no sense. it was beyond his capabilities. he's not a genius superspy type so putting him in charge of SHIELD felt like putting a square peg into a round hole. he's at his best when he's in crazy Green Goblin mode or about to become crazy Green Goblin mode, so of course they put him in a role that depended on him not doing the one thing that makes him entertaining. he wasn't able to hold onto his position through any effort of his own it depended on writing the entire superhero community and indeed the people of the United States as total idiots. it was a text-book idiot plot. on top of that when he finally lost it, it wasn't because of his own failures, it was because he himself was suddenly being written as a total idiot. Exactly. The whole story made so many stretches, it was impossible to buy into.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Mar 9, 2013 6:41:36 GMT -5
Eh, I liked the evolution of Norman.
It's something I can actually get behind Bendis with.
Different strokes.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 9, 2013 8:44:20 GMT -5
I still like to think, though, that the whole idea of Norman running things came about because of his hilarious nervous breakdown in Thunderbolts where he went back into Green Goblin mode and started rambling about how great the world would be if he were president. seriously, some of Warren Ellis' finest work.
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Mar 9, 2013 15:45:08 GMT -5
I actually like the Iron Patriot. The armor looks really awesome, but I think I would have liked it better if the armor had been made as a sort of apology from Tony Stark to the anti-registration heroes after Cap's temporary death. However, while I agree with you completely on all your points, there is one thing that pisses me off about Marvel's treatment of Norman Osborn/The Green Goblin more than anything. Before his return, Spiderman had NEVER had a huge public victory over him and put him in prison. In fact, the Goblin had never suffered such a fate ever...always managing to escape into the night to haunt Peter further. Instead of setting up this big event and giving Peter a well deserved big win over one of his greatest foes, Marvel pisses it away by having Luke f***ing Cage beat the Goblin. Not only did Cage beat him in public...he humiliated him by badly beating him...UNMASKED him in front of everyone...AND sent him to prison! I've tried to control it, and I think I've done better than I have with my hatred of Batman, but I have a serious disdain for Luke Cage because of this. The moron was a G-List super hero...but because Bendis and Quasada adored him, he stole Spidey's great victory away. I can't help but equate it to wrestling...where the company is trying to push a jobber or guy who just never clicked with the fans and I'm just one of the ones that isn't buying it. Luke got the big W over the Green Goblin...Luke became leader of the Avengers...Luke was second in command behind Captain America in the big dumb Civil War event...Luke's been shoved down my throat in various video games where he has no business being in (Spiderman: Web of Shadows is the one I can think of right off the top of my head)...Luke is appearing as a major player in cartoons he has no business being in (Ultimate Spiderman). I can't stand the character, and have been hoping that Joey Q and Brian B will get fired or something and somebody will either off Luke Cage or tear him down a few billion pegs. He doesn't deserve to be pushed as a major super hero in the Marvel Universe, period. And don't dare tell me I'm racist...Monica Rambeau, War Machine, Black Panther, and Storm ALL deserve the monster push Luke has gotten, and I'd be happy with any of them being in the same situation (with the exception of stealing Spidey's win over the Green Goblin). Sounds like you didn't get the chance to read the Identity Crisis and Gathering of Five story arcs that lead to Norman Osborn being demasked and wholly defeated by Spider-Man in front of the world. You should check it out, but I'm almost sure the various Marvel 'resets' have all but negated everything that happened back then. I'll put a quick summary of those arcs in a spoiler tag for ya. {Spoiler}Identity Crisis arc
Norman (via The Chameleon) creates a very convincing frame job that implicates Spidey in the murder of a thug, Joey-Z. He does this as part of an elaborate revenge plot against Peter to ruin his private, professional and crime-fighting life since only Peter and Mary Jane understand he's the Green Goblin (the rest of the world thinks it's a bad rumor).
So while every cop in NYC and JJJ hunt down Spidey, Peter gives WebHead a break. He and MJ create alterego-alteregos to continue fighting crime under different aliases. They create 4 new costumes (Ricochet, Prodigy, Dusk, the Hornet), one for each Spidey-book that existed at the time ('Amazing', 'Spectacular', 'Peter Parker: Spider-Man', and 'Sensational' respectively); cool cool cool stuff!
Anyhow during the Spidey lockdown there's this sick one shot PP:SM issue during Identity Crisis that doesn't have any costumes or fighting in it. Norman and Peter get trapped in a wrecked Daily Bugle elevator with little Normie (Harry's son with Liz Allen) due to some dude with pyrotechnic powers.The only way to save the boy and themselves is for Peter (or Norman) to risk using his superpowers while the elevator camera is pointed at them. Norman keeps saying 'the blast took out the cameras go ahead and be a hero, m'boy!' and being sadistic about killing Gwen-- just one of the more powerful stories I've ever read in Spidey-verse!
Anyway after Prodigy (aka Spidey) clears the real murderer of Joey-Z and makes Norman look foolish as a result (he tried to use Prodigy to hunt down Spidey as a murderer not realizing it was Peter all along) things go into Stage for Norman. He's tortured Peter all this while with Harry clones (no lie) dressed as the Green Goblin, specifically attacking Norman in public so that the people won't think Osborn is the Green Goblin ever again (sick brilliant bastard). So once Spidey is back on his ass he initiates the Gathering of Five.
Gathering of Five Arc
This is actually the origin of the 3rd (4th?) Spider-Woman. The Gathering is basically a group of extremists and clueless fools alike who all either buy or con their way into a Group Cult Event. Norman presides over everything with his whole Illuminati society followers (all those mysterious hooded guys who's deal I still am not too sure about to this day), and basically the gyst of The Gathering is to get 5 normal people to risk it all in order to receive 5 superpowered 'gifts'-- except 2 of the gifts are actually curses.
I know Madame Webb is one member and she got the gift of 'Life' I think (she went from an old woman to a young vixen after the Gathering).
Shadrac got the gift of 'death'-- killing him instantly but also making him unkillable (the catch is he never stops burning and always has to keep himself wrapped up in mummy gear).
Mattie (who I think stole her dad's ticket to the Gathering or something) got 'absolute power' and since she is an obsessed Spider-Man fan she became the new Spider-Woman using those powers.
There's another guy who purchased a seat in the Gathering who gets I think 'knowledge' but I'm not sure, and don't really remember if there was a Monkey's Paw catch to it or not...
Finally Norman Osborn, who's about to have the final battle with an injured and psychologically-tormented Peter Parker (just found out whoops Aunt May is not dead Norman was hiding her alive for years!! again no lie) thinks he got the 'absolute power' gift that Mattie got (she seemed to have gotten 'death' and her heart stopped immediately after the Gathering) and uses it to absolutely decimate Spider-Man before unmasking him in front of a news camera...
Then the last issue of the final chapter starts and we of course learn that Norman got the 'Madness' gift instead of 'absolute power'-- and his victory over Spider-Man was all in his now-deranged head. He actually got his butt ripped open by Spider-man, and HE was the one unmasked in front of the world on live TV, finally putting the Green Goblin alias to bed officially (Which is why he gets so much flak for his criminal past during Dark Reign as the Iron Patriot).
The last image we see of Norman Osborn before he resurfaces to steal Deadpool's intel on how to kill Skrulls is a completely bonkers Green Goblin who keeps repeating 'I killed him' since Norman is under a Sharingan genjutsu where he keeps reliving what he keeps failing to do in reality: winning against Spidey. The ultimate Spider-Man victory, IMHO. Sorry about the length ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Mar 9, 2013 16:05:13 GMT -5
I actually like the Iron Patriot. The armor looks really awesome, but I think I would have liked it better if the armor had been made as a sort of apology from Tony Stark to the anti-registration heroes after Cap's temporary death. However, while I agree with you completely on all your points, there is one thing that pisses me off about Marvel's treatment of Norman Osborn/The Green Goblin more than anything. Before his return, Spiderman had NEVER had a huge public victory over him and put him in prison. In fact, the Goblin had never suffered such a fate ever...always managing to escape into the night to haunt Peter further. Instead of setting up this big event and giving Peter a well deserved big win over one of his greatest foes, Marvel pisses it away by having Luke f***ing Cage beat the Goblin. Not only did Cage beat him in public...he humiliated him by badly beating him...UNMASKED him in front of everyone...AND sent him to prison! I've tried to control it, and I think I've done better than I have with my hatred of Batman, but I have a serious disdain for Luke Cage because of this. The moron was a G-List super hero...but because Bendis and Quasada adored him, he stole Spidey's great victory away. I can't help but equate it to wrestling...where the company is trying to push a jobber or guy who just never clicked with the fans and I'm just one of the ones that isn't buying it. Luke got the big W over the Green Goblin...Luke became leader of the Avengers...Luke was second in command behind Captain America in the big dumb Civil War event...Luke's been shoved down my throat in various video games where he has no business being in (Spiderman: Web of Shadows is the one I can think of right off the top of my head)...Luke is appearing as a major player in cartoons he has no business being in (Ultimate Spiderman). I can't stand the character, and have been hoping that Joey Q and Brian B will get fired or something and somebody will either off Luke Cage or tear him down a few billion pegs. He doesn't deserve to be pushed as a major super hero in the Marvel Universe, period. And don't dare tell me I'm racist...Monica Rambeau, War Machine, Black Panther, and Storm ALL deserve the monster push Luke has gotten, and I'd be happy with any of them being in the same situation (with the exception of stealing Spidey's win over the Green Goblin). Sounds like you didn't get the chance to read the Identity Crisis and Gathering of Five story arcs that lead to Norman Osborn being demasked and wholly defeated by Spider-Man in front of the world. You should check it out, but I'm almost sure the various Marvel 'resets' have all but negated everything that happened back then. I'll put a quick summary of those arcs in a spoiler tag for ya. {Spoiler}Identity Crisis arc
Norman (via The Chameleon) creates a very convincing frame job that implicates Spidey in the murder of a thug, Joey-Z. He does this as part of an elaborate revenge plot against Peter to ruin his private, professional and crime-fighting life since only Peter and Mary Jane understand he's the Green Goblin (the rest of the world thinks it's a bad rumor).
So while every cop in NYC and JJJ hunt down Spidey, Peter gives WebHead a break. He and MJ create alterego-alteregos to continue fighting crime under different aliases. They create 4 new costumes (Ricochet, Prodigy, Dusk, the Hornet), one for each Spidey-book that existed at the time ('Amazing', 'Spectacular', 'Peter Parker: Spider-Man', and 'Sensational' respectively); cool cool cool stuff!
Anyhow during the Spidey lockdown there's this sick one shot PP:SM issue during Identity Crisis that doesn't have any costumes or fighting in it. Norman and Peter get trapped in a wrecked Daily Bugle elevator with little Normie (Harry's son with Liz Allen) due to some dude with pyrotechnic powers.The only way to save the boy and themselves is for Peter (or Norman) to risk using his superpowers while the elevator camera is pointed at them. Norman keeps saying 'the blast took out the cameras go ahead and be a hero, m'boy!' and being sadistic about killing Gwen-- just one of the more powerful stories I've ever read in Spidey-verse!
Anyway after Prodigy (aka Spidey) clears the real murderer of Joey-Z and makes Norman look foolish as a result (he tried to use Prodigy to hunt down Spidey as a murderer not realizing it was Peter all along) things go into Stage for Norman. He's tortured Peter all this while with Harry clones (no lie) dressed as the Green Goblin, specifically attacking Norman in public so that the people won't think Osborn is the Green Goblin ever again (sick brilliant bastard). So once Spidey is back on his ass he initiates the Gathering of Five.
Gathering of Five Arc
This is actually the origin of the 3rd (4th?) Spider-Woman. The Gathering is basically a group of extremists and clueless fools alike who all either buy or con their way into a Group Cult Event. Norman presides over everything with his whole Illuminati society followers (all those mysterious hooded guys who's deal I still am not too sure about to this day), and basically the gyst of The Gathering is to get 5 normal people to risk it all in order to receive 5 superpowered 'gifts'-- except 2 of the gifts are actually curses.
I know Madame Webb is one member and she got the gift of 'Life' I think (she went from an old woman to a young vixen after the Gathering).
Shadrac got the gift of 'death'-- killing him instantly but also making him unkillable (the catch is he never stops burning and always has to keep himself wrapped up in mummy gear).
Mattie (who I think stole her dad's ticket to the Gathering or something) got 'absolute power' and since she is an obsessed Spider-Man fan she became the new Spider-Woman using those powers.
There's another guy who purchased a seat in the Gathering who gets I think 'knowledge' but I'm not sure, and don't really remember if there was a Monkey's Paw catch to it or not...
Finally Norman Osborn, who's about to have the final battle with an injured and psychologically-tormented Peter Parker (just found out whoops Aunt May is not dead Norman was hiding her alive for years!! again no lie) thinks he got the 'absolute power' gift that Mattie got (she seemed to have gotten 'death' and her heart stopped immediately after the Gathering) and uses it to absolutely decimate Spider-Man before unmasking him in front of a news camera...
Then the last issue of the final chapter starts and we of course learn that Norman got the 'Madness' gift instead of 'absolute power'-- and his victory over Spider-Man was all in his now-deranged head. He actually got his butt ripped open by Spider-man, and HE was the one unmasked in front of the world on live TV, finally putting the Green Goblin alias to bed officially (Which is why he gets so much flak for his criminal past during Dark Reign as the Iron Patriot).
The last image we see of Norman Osborn before he resurfaces to steal Deadpool's intel on how to kill Skrulls is a completely bonkers Green Goblin who keeps repeating 'I killed him' since Norman is under a Sharingan genjutsu where he keeps reliving what he keeps failing to do in reality: winning against Spidey. The ultimate Spider-Man victory, IMHO. Sorry about the length ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) No big deal on the length, but I did read those stories, I remember them happening rather differently. In the Gathering of Five, Norman Osborn did indeed get madness...and we see an entire comic of him raping and pummeling Spiderman. The next book (or the last pages or whatever) he's beaten and webbed up. We don't get to SEE Spidey's public victory over this dork! Norman is brought to jail, still in his Green Goblin garb, but after a single guy unmasks him, Norman's own personal doofus henchmen kill that guy and sneak him out of jail/the madhouse/where ever he was at. So he didn't get unmasked in front of everyone, and while I guess he got a nice public beating, Marvel screwed us and didn't allow us to witness it. Norman's pounding at Spidey's hands during the Identity Crisis doesn't really count for me, as that was a set up by Norman (then seen as a loving business man framed by the vile Spiderman) and he didn't even try to fight back or anything like that. It was nice to see Normie battered and bloodied, but I would have preferred seeing it in his Goblin outfit after a good fight. Sorry to go off on (another) tangent like this, but I did find Identity Crisis to be an absolute blast. I loved Spidey as the Hornet and Prodigy especially. There is this part of me that would like to see it retconned that Norman killed Gwen. Obviously, Marvel is going with the whole "Spidey broke her neck when he tried to web her and save her" thing...but we never really know for sure. Spidey never had a chance to check out Gwen's condition, and she was lying there "unconscious" during that famous fight between Green Goblin and Spiderman. She never even made a sound (like "umpgh" or "argh") when the Goblin knocks her off the bridge with his glider. I dunno, I just have this theory she was dead before Spiderman ever got there and "broke her neck" with his web.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 9, 2013 17:15:13 GMT -5
I always assumed Norman DID kill her. I wasn't aware the silly "Spidey did it by accident" theory was canon. hell, during his epic nervous breakdown during Thunderbolts, Norman pretty much shouts out how great snapping blonde girls' necks is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2013 18:51:16 GMT -5
Doctor Octopus is Spider-Man's archenemy. You can't be an arch enemy if you have multiple people behind the mask and have a variant similar villain flying about (Hobgoblin), heck killing Gwen does not make you archenemy by default. *Points to Carolyn Trainer, Luke Carlyle, Steel Spider (He's basically Doc Ock with spider legs), The Squid (Organic version of Ock), and probably a few others I don't remember.*
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2013 18:52:37 GMT -5
I always assumed Norman DID kill her. I wasn't aware the silly "Spidey did it by accident" theory was canon. hell, during his epic nervous breakdown during Thunderbolts, Norman pretty much shouts out how great snapping blonde girls' necks is. Word of god is that she was already dead before Spidey's web broke her neck. Though they don't say if Norman killed her beforehand, or if the fall itself killed her.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 9, 2013 18:55:06 GMT -5
Eh Gerry Conway has kinda alluded to the fact that he meant the SNAP to kill her
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 9, 2013 18:55:51 GMT -5
why would they even bother? Norman's crazy and evil, what could possibly be gained by him NOT being the one who killed her?
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