The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,320
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 12, 2013 22:06:27 GMT -5
I wonder if CM Punk grabbed a female fan from the stands, rapes her in the middle of the ring and then beats up her boyfriend, would he still get cheered for it? I love it when people have to resort to reaching deep down into their bag of flawed arguments rather than remain on subject.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 22:21:13 GMT -5
In person I always boo heels.
To me it's always felt like the heel cheer. If I like a heels work I boo them. The others I just don't do anything.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Mar 12, 2013 22:30:33 GMT -5
Or people who are talented? Few things grate on me than when people chastise paying audience members for reacting the way they choose to within the limits of behavior appropriate to the venue. This vision you guys have of everyone in the audience slavishly adhering to some code of who they're supposed to cheer and who they're supposed to boo is unsettling to me. As is when people bemoan the What? chants. If the crowd chant's What? they chant What?, our discussion of crowds should follow the guidelines of linguistics and be descriptive not prescriptive. The crowd are not part of the cast as much as Dixie Carter might desire that to be the case. A great songwriter coined my username, and he also wrote this: I will choose a path that's clear I will choose freewill If it's such a strong desire of you lot for the crowd not to cheer CM Punk your ability to influence that should end with buying a ticket to the shows and not cheering for him. While you do so I'll continue to go to the occasional show and, when there, chant for my straight edge saviour Christopher Martin Punk. And I'll also cheer for Christian. Whether he's there or not. but a wrestler is not just a wrestler, he is part of a story and you are disrupting that story as surely as if you were throwing trash in the ring. Cheering the talent of Phillip Brooks screws up the story of CM Punk No, if people are cheering the story of CM Punk, it means that his role doesn't fit and should be altered to reflect the demands of the audience. The audience should dictate what and is popular, not writers. If a babyface gets booed, that means he doesn't connect with that audience. And if it continues to happen everywhere, it means that said babyface is miscast in his role and they should turn him. Punk should have stayed face, fought an actual corporate threat (since corporate authority is never the good guy in storytelling, or life, quite frankly), and Cena should have been revealed as being the corporate mascot so many see him as. Instead, they shoehorned all of Punk's heat onto Cena (The Johnny Ace stuff), when to a lot of the audience Cena represents everything (maybe unfairly) they've grown tired of in WWE. He's kept babyface ad-nauseam despite this large contingent seeing him as a contrived phony. Punk will never be a super heel, because most people still relate to him or like him. Cena, on the other hand, could be the greatest heel in WWE history outside of Vince McMahon, because he's a walking corporate billboard. People would buy him selling out, or being revealed as being protected and favored. His booking is so easy to set in that direction.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 22:33:22 GMT -5
They feel that because they paid a ticket, they can root for whoever the hell they want. And they are 100% correct. It's beyond stupid to boo a guy that you like. It also can considered stupid to "reward" someone's good performance by giving him the exact reaction he doesn't want and is desperately trying not to get.
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Post by flatsdomino on Mar 12, 2013 22:37:04 GMT -5
Firstly, I'm a huge CM Punk fan. But I don't feel the need to show support for his heel work by booing him...because I don't support this heel turn to begin with. So why should I show support for something I don't care for? The idea that I should "reward" his good performance by doing what WWE has decided I should do is idiotic. We're not just there to applaud the show in front of us, we're there to offer our criticisms as well. Cheering him in protest of what WWE may want is one such way of doing that.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,205
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 12, 2013 22:39:41 GMT -5
Talent aside, you're always going to have people who will sympathize with heels (not just Punk) no matter what. A lot of people would love to be able to be unrepentant assholes and get away with the things that heels get away with. To just shove snarky, condescending, dismissive insults down other people's throats, to tell people how worthless and useless and borderline retarded they are. To make all the people they feel are below them feel like complete shit. To make their lives hell.
Plenty of people would LOVE to be 'that guy', so it's not surprising that the people who get to be 'that guy' on TV get popular.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Mar 12, 2013 22:45:43 GMT -5
Talent aside, you're always going to have people who will sympathize with heels (not just Punk) no matter what. A lot of people would love to be able to be unrepentant assholes and get away with the things that heels get away with. To just shove snarky, condescending, dismissive insults down other people's throats, to tell people how worthless and useless and borderline retarded they are. To make all the people they feel are below them feel like complete s***. To make their lives hell. You actually just described most of the top babyfaces.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Mar 12, 2013 22:46:43 GMT -5
And they are 100% correct. It's beyond stupid to boo a guy that you like. It also can considered stupid to "reward" someone's good performance by giving him the exact reaction he doesn't want and is desperately trying not to get. It's not about rewarding anyone. Fans cheer for themselves, not out of some obligation to the performers.
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Malcolm
Grimlock
Wanted something done about the color of his ring.
May contain ADHD
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Post by Malcolm on Mar 12, 2013 22:47:49 GMT -5
I wonder if CM Punk grabbed a female fan from the stands, rapes her in the middle of the ring and then beats up her boyfriend, would he still get cheered for it? I love it when people have to resort to reaching deep down into their bag of flawed arguments rather than remain on subject. I'm not resorting to anything. I was legit curious. No need for condescension.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,205
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 12, 2013 22:47:56 GMT -5
Talent aside, you're always going to have people who will sympathize with heels (not just Punk) no matter what. A lot of people would love to be able to be unrepentant assholes and get away with the things that heels get away with. To just shove snarky, condescending, dismissive insults down other people's throats, to tell people how worthless and useless and borderline retarded they are. To make all the people they feel are below them feel like complete s***. To make their lives hell. You actually just described most of the top babyfaces. These days, it's most PEOPLE.
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kerda
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 351
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Post by kerda on Mar 12, 2013 23:03:12 GMT -5
Like, dude, what?
If I enjoy a guy's work, and he happens to be a heel, I'm not going to fake boo him. What planet are you living on where you feel the need to play make believe when you watch pro wrestling? Isn't our pastime weird, nerdy and obsessive enough already?
The fact that Punk gets so many cheers isn't a failure on the part of the fans to "play their proper role", but a failure of WWE to truly understand just how deeply so much of the audience connects with him. Punk if one of the only guys on that roster, one of the only guys in wrestling today, that people relate to as a real person. They aren't cheering him because he engaged in some dickish antics with Paul Heyman or GTSed one of the designated good guys. They're cheering him because he's a hotheaded, no nonsense, tattooed, punk rock asshole with a regular guy body who inexplicably made it to the top of a company famous for steroidal, square-jawed supermen.
The great irony is that Punk is the true "everyman" that they've been killing themselves to push Cena as for the last decade, which is I think a large part of why they're obsessed with getting him over as a heel. It kills them that the tastes and makeup of their audience are so diametrically opposed to the stories they feel most comfortable telling.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 23:16:43 GMT -5
Firstly, I'm a huge CM Punk fan. But I don't feel the need to show support for his heel work by booing him...because I don't support this heel turn to begin with. So why should I show support for something I don't care for? The idea that I should "reward" his good performance by doing what WWE has decided I should do is idiotic. We're not just there to applaud the show in front of us, we're there to offer our criticisms as well. Cheering him in protest of what WWE may want is one such way of doing that. He's certainly written to be the biggest asshole in the world, so if can't pull it off, he's the one who will be blamed.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Mar 12, 2013 23:24:07 GMT -5
Firstly, I'm a huge CM Punk fan. But I don't feel the need to show support for his heel work by booing him...because I don't support this heel turn to begin with. So why should I show support for something I don't care for? The idea that I should "reward" his good performance by doing what WWE has decided I should do is idiotic. We're not just there to applaud the show in front of us, we're there to offer our criticisms as well. Cheering him in protest of what WWE may want is one such way of doing that. He's certainly written to be the biggest asshole in the world, so if can't pull it off, he's the one who will be blamed. Hulk Hogan attempted to murder The Rock by running him over while he was in an ambulance, with a semi. He then got cheered a few weeks later at Wrestlemania. Sometimes it's not about a superstar not being able to play a character. Fans just like cheering for people they like.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Mar 12, 2013 23:38:19 GMT -5
Like, dude, what? If I enjoy a guy's work, and he happens to be a heel, I'm not going to fake boo him. What planet are you living on where you feel the need to play make believe when you watch pro wrestling? Isn't our pastime weird, nerdy and obsessive enough already? The fact that Punk gets so many cheers isn't a failure on the part of the fans to "play their proper role", but a failure of WWE to truly understand just how deeply so much of the audience connects with him. Punk if one of the only guys on that roster, one of the only guys in wrestling today, that people relate to as a real person. They aren't cheering him because he engaged in some dickish antics with Paul Heyman or GTSed one of the designated good guys. They're cheering him because he's a hotheaded, no nonsense, tattooed, punk rock asshole with a regular guy body who inexplicably made it to the top of a company famous for steroidal, square-jawed supermen. The great irony is that Punk is the true "everyman" that they've been killing themselves to push Cena as for the last decade, which is I think a large part of why they're obsessed with getting him over as a heel. It kills them that the tastes and makeup of their audience are so diametrically opposed to the stories they feel most comfortable telling. Cena IS a regular guy. Just because he hit has a chiseled physique doesn't mean he isn't. Blaming him for things that really isn't his fault MAKES him the underdog that we think he shouldn't be. I wasn't happy with Punk's heel turn, but I don't think it was this massive conspiracy to keep Cena face either. I don't see why both of them can't be faces to appeal to the different niches of the fanbase? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't we have a Batman AND a Superman?
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Post by thehoss on Mar 12, 2013 23:38:44 GMT -5
They should work on making the guys we're supposed to cheer for not be such lame cornballs.
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Mar 12, 2013 23:48:18 GMT -5
By this logic, WWE should just add 'APPLAUSE' signs for the for the audience.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 23:54:03 GMT -5
He's certainly written to be the biggest asshole in the world, so if can't pull it off, he's the one who will be blamed. Hulk Hogan attempted to murder The Rock by running him over while he was in an ambulance, with a semi. He then got cheered a few weeks later at Wrestlemania. Sometimes it's not about a superstar not being able to play a character. Fans just like cheering for people they like. Punk's a great heel, and it fits as he was a kind of a prick even as a babyface. Heel Hogan from WCW had been gone since 1999, and WWE should have known the day he re-signed with the company that he needed to be Hulk Hogan, not Hollywood.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Mar 12, 2013 23:56:03 GMT -5
Cena IS a regular guy. Just because he hit has a chiseled physique doesn't mean he isn't. Blaming him for things that really isn't his fault MAKES him the underdog that we think he shouldn't be. I wasn't happy with Punk's heel turn, but I don't think it was this massive conspiracy to keep Cena face either. I don't see why both of them can't be faces to appeal to the different niches of the fanbase? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't we have a Batman AND a Superman? Because Cena's character is inconsistent and often phony. He's whatever Vince wants him to be in that moment, often contradicting previous seeming character growth, and almost always to the detriment of a previous angle. He's a corporate billboard presented as a fighting underdog, when he's really never had to truly fight or scratch in almost ten years. He's the ultimate "have" masquerading as a "have not". They act like he finally earned the right to Main Event WrestleMania, when the reality is that he gets Title shots handed to him (kayfabe) constantly, and main evented WrestleMania last year regardless, even though he wasn't in the Rumble nor Champion. He's the status quo. And normal people don't relate to that on average. He's the farthest thing from "regular guy." He's Vince's ideal avatar of a corporate champion.
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Toxik916
Hank Scorpio
Sacramento Proud
Posts: 6,207
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Post by Toxik916 on Mar 13, 2013 0:03:23 GMT -5
I don't understand how CM Punk can be a complete asshole to the fans and still get cheers. I have no problem with people cheering a heel, but it looks stupid cheering a guy that talks s*** about you as a fan or your city.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Mar 13, 2013 0:11:02 GMT -5
Cena IS a regular guy. Just because he hit has a chiseled physique doesn't mean he isn't. Blaming him for things that really isn't his fault MAKES him the underdog that we think he shouldn't be. I wasn't happy with Punk's heel turn, but I don't think it was this massive conspiracy to keep Cena face either. I don't see why both of them can't be faces to appeal to the different niches of the fanbase? Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't we have a Batman AND a Superman? Because Cena's character is inconsistent and often phony. He's whatever Vince wants him to be in that moment, often contradicting previous seeming character growth, and almost always to the detriment of a previous angle. He's a corporate billboard presented as a fighting underdog, when he's really never had to truly fight or scratch in almost ten years. He's the ultimate "have" masquerading as a "have not". They act like he finally earned the right to Main Event WrestleMania, when the reality is that he gets Title shots handed to him (kayfabe) constantly, and main evented WrestleMania last year regardless, even though he wasn't in the Rumble nor Champion. He's the status quo. And normal people don't relate to that on average. He's the farthest thing from "regular guy." He's Vince's ideal avatar of a corporate champion. Cena IS a have not. Cena started out as a lowly jobber (who almost got the axe in his first year by the way) who scratched and clawed his way to the top and maintained his spot through force of will. In actuality Cena was never really made into a "megastar". He's a glorified upper-midcarder who is in his spot by default because let's be honest; who's left? If not for the massive exodus of top stars during Cena's time on top, he would be just another guy in the rotation like Ziggler, Sheamus or Kane are now. He main evented WrestleMania 28 because, honestly, whoever the Rock was wrestling against was going to be the main event. Whether it was The Rock vs. John Cena or The Rock vs. Johnny Curtis, WrestleMania 28 was going to end with The Rock standing tall. Cena isn't really a corporate champion either. While he does what he can for the company, his character isn't a Yes Man either. Throughout his time on top, he has repeatedly clashed with whomever was in charge of the brand/company whether it be Kurt Angle, Paul Heyman, Eric Bischoff, Vickie Guerrero, Jonathan Coachman, or Vince himself. He has never been afraid to tell the heel authority figure that he's wrong whenever that person goes on a huge power trip.
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