willyjakes
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Post by willyjakes on Mar 19, 2013 13:10:04 GMT -5
They finally hit rock bottom after the slow erosion of talent from 1992 onward.
That's all it is...lack of true believable larger than life talent.
Let's use Shawn Michaels as an example. Very good wrestler, but when the fed was stacked, he was in a tag team. Then some talent leaves, so he's promoted to singles/IC champ contender...more talent leaves, he becomes IC champion...more talent leaves, he wins the rumble and becomes World Title contender. So basically he just floated to the top.
What you saw was reliable mainstays just fall off over the years. Dibiase (as a wrestler) Duggan, Jake, Bossman, Hennig, Hogan was long gone, Savage was out the door. Those who remained got elevated to roles they didn't belong in, new guys who were brought in just didn't have what it takes (King Mabel?)
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willyjakes
Don Corleone
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Post by willyjakes on Mar 19, 2013 13:15:46 GMT -5
1995 was the year that WCW really started to gain momentum: Nitro debuted, Luger defected, Hogan and Savage brought star power. I think more than anything that was bad about WWF in 1995, there was just this pervasive sense among people who remember it that WCW was there things were at. Exactly, WCW just seemed more credible...legitimate. Savage and Hogan (even if Hulk was cartoony) Flair, Arn Anderson, the newly arriving Chris Benoit, Malenko, The Giant and many others. It just seemed like a more legitimate, heavy hitting wrestling product.
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Post by DoubleDare on Mar 19, 2013 15:47:26 GMT -5
I was actually a fan back then and 1996 was not any boom for the wwf and the attitude era was still 2 years away in 95, yes austin would be there in 96 but the majority of the shows/company still was doin what they were in 95 (new generation)
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hitch
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Post by hitch on Mar 19, 2013 16:08:26 GMT -5
I think the product became more childish after the Hulkamania era. I don't think 1984-93, although it was generally a young persons product, was childish. It was presented as a 'serious' thing. The results mattered, the victories mattered, they'd do mature plots and storylines. Larger than life rather than cartoony.
After that Vince I think thought he'd recreate the audience again by going cartoon-like. You'd have Superstars opening with Vince saying 'And we'll ask...why Santa...why?' and other nonsense like that. I think it's a disservice to say they didn't change from the cartoony-80s era, because it never was. It was family friendly but the cartoon nonsense started in the mid 1990s.
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Post by cabbageboy on Mar 19, 2013 17:35:37 GMT -5
I think the biggest problem was that Nash simply wasn't a credible main eventer as WWF champion at that point. He had no build. The guy literally turned face at Survivor Series 1994 and won the world title like a WEEK later. What was this bizarre rush to get the belt on him? I would have had Backlund keep the belt as a transition guy with a longer run and had Diesel run roughshod through the Rumble in 1995 for the win, then go on to have a title win at WM. The Backlund thing was just odd. It's like they had the potential storyline of "We have this New Generation now...but our champion is this crazy old dude!"
Things got worse though. 1995's biggest problem was that there were almost no credible heels on the roster, especially after WM. HBK turned face, Diesel was face, Razor, Bret, Taker, Bulldog, Luger. All of those guys were faces for most of 1995. They were so hard up for heels that Bulldog turned after Luger bolted for WCW, and Bulldog was never a real natural heel.
The shocking thing fashion wise about the WWF in the 1993-95 period was the jarring lack of recognition that the 80s were over and the first half of the 90s was dominated by the grunge and gangsta rap movements. Yet here were all sorts of wrestlers in gaudy 1990 era tights and attire.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 18:00:05 GMT -5
Things got worse though. 1995's biggest problem was that there were almost no credible heels on the roster, especially after WM. HBK turned face, Diesel was face, Razor, Bret, Taker, Bulldog, Luger. All of those guys were faces for most of 1995. They were so hard up for heels that Bulldog turned after Luger bolted for WCW, and Bulldog was never a real natural heel. Bulldog turned before Luger left. He turned on the Raw before SummerSlam, and on the weekend of the PPV, plus at the PPV itself, the commentators speculated if Luger was going to turn, too.
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Post by Manute Bol on Mar 19, 2013 18:37:28 GMT -5
I always have to defend the New Generation era and think some if it's flaws are seriously overstated. Whether you agree or not, some solid in-ring action went down during this period.
Some recommended 1995 viewing:
1/9/95 - Razor Ramon vs. Owen Hart (RAW) 1/16/95 - Bret Hart vs. Jeff Jarrett (RAW) 1/22/95 - Razor Ramon vs. Jeff Jarrett (Royal Rumble) 1/22/95 - Diesel vs. Bret Hart (Royal Rumble) 1/22/95 - The "1-2-3" Kid & Bob "Spark Plugg" Holly vs. Tatanka & Bam Bam Bigelow (Royal Rumble) 1/22/95 - Royal Rumble Match (Royal Rumble) 1/23/95 - The "1-2-3" Kid & Bob "Spark Plugg" Holly vs. The Smoking Gunns (RAW) 2/20/95 - Diesel vs. Jeff Jarrett (RAW) 3/6/95 - The British Bulldog vs. Shawn Michaels (RAW) 3/27/95 - No Holds Barred Match: Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (RAW) 4/2/95 - Diesel vs. Shawn Michaels (WrestleMania XI) 4/2/95 - Lawrence Taylor vs. Bam Bam Bigelow (WrestleMania XI) 5/14/95 - Bret Hart vs. Hakushi (In Your House) 5/14/95 - Handicap Match: Razor Ramon vs. Jeff Jarrett & The Roadie (In Your House) 7/9/95 - Barry Horowitz vs. Skip (Wrestling Challenge) 7/23/95 - The "1-2-3" Kid vs. The Roadie (In Your House 2: The Lumberjacks) 7/23/95 - Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett (In Your House 2: The Lumberjacks) 7/24/95 - Bret Hart vs. Hakushi (RAW) 8/27/95 - The "1-2-3" Kid vs. Hakushi (SummerSlam) 8/27/95 - Barry Horowitz vs. Skip (SummerSlam) 8/27/95 - Ladder Match: Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (SummerSlam) 9/24/95 - Bret Hart vs. Jean Pierre LaFitte (In Your House 3) 9/24/95 - Diesel & Shawn Michaels vs. Yokozuna & The British Bulldog (In Your House 3) 9/25/95 - Marty Jannetty vs. Skip (RAW) 9/25/95 - The Smoking Gunns vs. Owen Hart & Yokozuna (RAW) 10/23/95 - Battle Royal for an Intercontinental Championship Match (RAW) 11/19/95 - Marty Jannetty, Barry Horowitz, Hakushi & Bob "Spark Plugg" Holly vs. The "1-2-3" Kid, The Body Donnas & Rad Radford (Survivor Series) 11/19/95 - Wild Card Match: Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson, The British Bulldog & Sycho Sid vs. Yokozuna, Razor Ramon, Owen Hart & Dean Douglas (Survivor Series) 11/19/95 - No Disqualification Match: Diesel vs. Bret Hart (Survivor Series) 11/20/95 - Shawn Michaels vs. Owen Hart (RAW) 12/17/95 - Arkansas Hog Pen Match: Henry O. Godwinn vs. Hunter Hearst Helmsley (In Your House 5: Seasons Beatings) 12/17/95 - Bret Hart vs. The British Bulldog (In Your House 5: Seasons Beatings)
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hitch
Don Corleone
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Post by hitch on Mar 19, 2013 19:16:52 GMT -5
I always have to defend the New Generation era and think some if it's flaws are seriously overstated. Whether you agree or not, some solid in-ring action went down during this period. Proof that 'wrestling' is close to an irrelevance when assessing watchability of the product, perhaps.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 19:19:26 GMT -5
2 things about 1995 that stick out to me:
1) The gimmicks mixed with completely new wrestlers. The veterans of the 80s and early 90s were basically all gone, and you had new people (who moreorless weren't on a 2nd/regimmicked run) coming in with gimmicks.
2) The noisy ring. For whatever reason, they must've put together the ring differently for a time there, because every time someone hit the apron, you got this loud clanging noise. Really annoying trend there for a while.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 19, 2013 20:05:20 GMT -5
I think the product became more childish after the Hulkamania era. I don't think 1984-93, although it was generally a young persons product, was childish. It was presented as a 'serious' thing. The results mattered, the victories mattered, they'd do mature plots and storylines. Larger than life rather than cartoony. After that Vince I think thought he'd recreate the audience again by going cartoon-like. You'd have Superstars opening with Vince saying 'And we'll ask...why Santa...why?' and other nonsense like that. I think it's a disservice to say they didn't change from the cartoony-80s era, because it never was. It was family friendly but the cartoon nonsense started in the mid 1990s. I have to agree, and I think a big part of it is breaking down from "larger than life personalities" to "over the top gimmicks". I mean, duh: the 80's were full of guys with big, loud personalities, and strong gimmicks, it'd be silly to deny that. But despite gimmicks that went on during the Hulkamania era, it still at least felt as if the focus was more on the personality that a guy brought to a gimmick. By 1995 it seemed like the gimmicks were more dominant, and since there was so much roster change and turnover the personalities never had a chance to get over with an audience that was just meeting them for the first time. Plus, as you say, as ridiculous as Hulkamania era WWF could be, things like the commentary, the announcers or interviewers, the "Special PPV Report" segments, etc., all seemed serious, like WWF was a legitimate sports company that just so happened to be full of athletes who were complete psychopaths. That feeling began to slip around 1994-1995 (even before, but that's when it became most stated).
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Post by kidtamagotchi on Mar 19, 2013 20:28:39 GMT -5
When I think of mid-90s WWF, I think of The Smoking Gunns. They seemed to wrestle every week, and their matches were BORING. Just punches and clotheslines. Nothing was really interesting to me in the WWF at the time, unless Bret Hart was involved.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 19, 2013 21:38:34 GMT -5
Honestly, at 15, I still dug it.
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Post by wildojinx on Mar 19, 2013 22:22:31 GMT -5
One thing i can say about 1995 was at least there were more fast-paced matches. I love 80s wwf, but there were LOTS of matches (paticularly on MSG shows) that had extended periods of guys in chinlocks, facelocks, and bearhugs. While there was still some of that stuff, you also had stuff like 123 kid vs hakushi or hbk vs razor or bret vs jean pierre lafitte, which was a lot different than the 80s product
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Post by cabbageboy on Mar 19, 2013 22:26:05 GMT -5
I am hazy on that Bulldog turn. I assumed it was right after Luger left, but maybe not. I can see why Luger would leave though...where did that leave him booking wise? Bulldog was clearly being geared for Diesel and/or Bret, so Lex would be a jobber in a break up feud had he stayed.
To show you how a terrible main event can ruin a show, I avoided Summerslam 1995 for nearly 15 years due to the Mabel/Diesel main event. Yet when I got the SS box set and watched that PPV, I was surprised by how good everything else was on it. Survivor Series 95 was also a very good PPV, with a terrific main event.
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willyjakes
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Post by willyjakes on Mar 19, 2013 22:30:28 GMT -5
One thing i can say about 1995 was at least there were more fast-paced matches. I love 80s wwf, but there were LOTS of matches (paticularly on MSG shows) that had extended periods of guys in chinlocks, facelocks, and bearhugs. While there was still some of that stuff, you also had stuff like 123 kid vs hakushi or hbk vs razor or bret vs jean pierre lafitte, which was a lot different than the 80s product You're definitely right about that, 1995 WWF did have quicker fast paced action...but that didn't always excite me. I tend to remember more botches in that era...plus a fast paced 123 kid vs hakushi match might've been nice, but it's still kid vs hakushi, so it just seems of little consequence In the 80's you had bigger, more lumbering stars. Studd, Andre, Bundy, One Man Gang. They were more physically imposing attractions but needed more frequent breaks in the ring
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Mar 19, 2013 22:31:43 GMT -5
Diesel or Kevin Nash if you will. Get way to much heat for this year. Yes they booked him as a Hogan like character but what they didn't give him is anything to work with? You can't expect him to gain a following when you facing another face for you first big title defence.
Then you put against him the likes of Sid of three PPVs. Ok look at KOTR. What was the ME. Diesel facing Sid and Tatanka. TATANKA who was way out of his once raising star. How is Diesel going to gain face value when the heels are not big heel and people care to pay to see Diesel beat them. Then you give him Mabel. A guy nobody simply didn't want to see. Yeah that who you face on the second biggest PPV. So you have Diesel facing nobody worth paying to see. It didn't matter who the champion was. Taker or Hart wouldn't made it better. Because you still have a horrible heel hand. So out of that year title run. The two heel Nash faced worth a crap was HBK and Bulldog. Two of of 12 months are not good odds. Then you put two face vs. face matches with Bret. You can't do that and expect Nash to gain face value when facing another already established face when he just turned face.
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Mar 19, 2013 22:44:11 GMT -5
Anyone not named Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels was not capable of putting on a match worth tuning in for.
Diesel as the most bland, least talented champion of the modern era holding the belt for a year.
The Great Mabel Experiment.
Take any WWF/E pay per view before or since, and it will still be better than that year's King of the Ring.
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Post by wildojinx on Mar 19, 2013 22:45:51 GMT -5
I think the product became more childish after the Hulkamania era. I don't think 1984-93, although it was generally a young persons product, was childish. It was presented as a 'serious' thing. The results mattered, the victories mattered, they'd do mature plots and storylines. Larger than life rather than cartoony. After that Vince I think thought he'd recreate the audience again by going cartoon-like. You'd have Superstars opening with Vince saying 'And we'll ask...why Santa...why?' and other nonsense like that. I think it's a disservice to say they didn't change from the cartoony-80s era, because it never was. It was family friendly but the cartoon nonsense started in the mid 1990s. WCW wasnt any better with the dungeon of doom and all, though they slowly went back to a more realistic style once nitro came along. Sadly, it wasnt until late 96 that the wwf started catching up.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Mar 19, 2013 23:01:30 GMT -5
It's like the 1980 season of SNL. Things didn't gel and while you had some good bits you had to dig through all the crap to get to it.
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Post by wildojinx on Mar 19, 2013 23:14:13 GMT -5
And in the case of the gimmicks, a lot of them had pretty much been seen before. Hunter Hearst Helmsley = Million Dollar Man (but missing the over the top charm dibiase brought to the role), Dean Douglas = Genius, and even Skip was basically a more fitness-oriented version of Mr Perfect. I know the five year rule when it comes to redoing gimmicks and angles, but the characters they were redoing werent even five years old, and in the case of helmsley, the original was still in the company!
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