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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 16:06:01 GMT -5
It's all about the way WWE marketed it's stars in the Attitude Era, and continue to this day. 'These are REAL people, REAL human beings' behind these 'larger than life characters'. It was kayfabe breaking in that they're acknowledging a 'real' existence, implying that wrestling isn't, but it also put more focus on the actual performer than the character they portray, and fans think that way now.
We know a lot more about the real lifestyle of pro wrestlers now, with all the autobiographies (#thanksmick) written or produced on DVD, and of course the endless resource of information called the internet. That means more fans know that the wrestlers bust their ass 300 days a year, the chairs are real, the blood is real, the training is really tough, low pay on the indys, etc.
WWE has become extremely self-congratulatory over the last decade, and it extends to making ALL their wreslters seem like the most athletic, smartest, handsomest/prettiest, hardworkingest, 'not just rasslers' people on earth. They add this extra layer that makes the heels less despicable, and the faces less heroic. And now, we're to the point of overly forcd heel turns and the top babyface 8 years strong still gets booed heavily.
It amounts to wrestlers being humanized, which it's hard to say is a bad thing. However, for the kind of stories pro wrestling tries to tell (ie simple morality plays), it kinda screws it all up. Maybe the writing needs to evolve along with fans' perceptions.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 31, 2013 21:15:18 GMT -5
The face/heel dynamic is always going to be viable so long as the storylines do a good job of defining the characters' roles, and that's a problem WWE has with some of (not all of) the roster. For every sociopath along the lines of Lesnar or Punk, you've got lazily written heels like Ziggler, Sandow and Cesaro who try to get heat merely by being arrogant or condescending- and audiences need more than that.
I think the writing needs to go back to basics, rather than"evolve". They need to let their heels go out and just do dastardly things and then for the faces to counteract that by being heroic. Something dramatic, along the likes of Jake having his snake bite Savage or Pillman kidnapping Marlena. You barely see that anymore in WWE's midcard, now it's mostly cocky guy #1 tries to one-up cocky guy #2- hence the mixed reactions.
But wrestling's inheritely a play, and if you dropped the hero vs. villain dynamic (which even Austin vs. McMahon conformed to), you're just left with a generic sports simulation.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Mar 31, 2013 21:20:01 GMT -5
After the successes of The Rock, and John Cena, they give all the cool personalities and character development to their heel wrestlers so that they can endear themselves to the fans with their heel personas enough to eventually get cheers and turn face, instead of simply making their face wrestlers cool to begin with.
Basically this formula is outdated. Their heels are now too awesome to boo while the faces don't have much to cheer for. What's the difference between John Cena and Zack Ryder (without Z!TLIS, mic time, or any other medium to express himself) other than one wears shorts and one wears trunks?
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Apr 1, 2013 1:33:47 GMT -5
The problem though is, the reason the face/heel dynamic is dying is simple. We have met the enemy, and he is us. Even when face/heel is worn out for this era, that makes sense. The good guy/bad guy dynamic has lost its meaning now that we "CAN" know more about the business and choose to support who we want to support.
This would be fine, but then last year made the problem even worse. In Entertainment Weekly, Stephanie McMahon was quoted as saying she wanted Rock/Cena to be "Team Edward/Team Jacob" for the WWE. And to be honest, that IS the way to make the face/heel dynamic evolve for the new era- get rid of "this guy is good. Cheer him. This guy is evil. Boo him" and have it give way to "these two guys are fighting. This is this guy's viewpoint. This is this guy's viewpoint. Who's side are YOU on?"
The result by the fans was, "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWW! TWILIGHT!" as a knee-jerk reaction just due to it- which makes even that look bad.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Apr 1, 2013 1:53:02 GMT -5
The problem though is, the reason the face/heel dynamic is dying is simple. We have met the enemy, and he is us. Even when face/heel is worn out for this era, that makes sense. The good guy/bad guy dynamic has lost its meaning now that we "CAN" know more about the business and choose to support who we want to support. This would be fine, but then last year made the problem even worse. In Entertainment Weekly, Stephanie McMahon was quoted as saying she wanted Rock/Cena to be "Team Edward/Team Jacob" for the WWE. And to be honest, that IS the way to make the face/heel dynamic evolve for the new era- get rid of "this guy is good. Cheer him. This guy is evil. Boo him" and have it give way to "these two guys are fighting. This is this guy's viewpoint. This is this guy's viewpoint. Who's side are YOU on?" The result by the fans was, "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWW! TWILIGHT!" as a knee-jerk reaction just due to it- which makes even that look bad. Except in the end it wasn't Jacob vs Edward. It wasn't even close to 50/50. Despite all WWE's intentions and even interference, it was still 90/10 Rock. |
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Post by Heeltown, USA on Apr 1, 2013 1:55:31 GMT -5
I have long felt the concept is outdated. Gives us real engaging characters, and we will decide who gets boo'd and who gets cheered.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Apr 1, 2013 2:31:42 GMT -5
I have long felt the concept is outdated. Gives us real engaging characters, and we will decide who gets boo'd and who gets cheered. I truly believe that this will never happen while Vince is alive. He seems incapable of giving up control and allowing the winds to blow where they may. If anything, in his old age, he's only gotten more obsessively controlling. I can't imagine him letting go of what he feels should be a top babyface, and no longer using WWE's usual slew of propaganda to influence or manipulate the audience. Today's WWE seems to be built less on organic popularity or hatred, and more them telling you what's what until people buy into it or grow indifferent. |
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Post by Welfare Willis on Apr 1, 2013 2:59:35 GMT -5
I have long felt the concept is outdated. Gives us real engaging characters, and we will decide who gets boo'd and who gets cheered. I truly believe that this will never happen while Vince is alive. He seems incapable of giving up control and allowing the winds to blow where they may. If anything, in his old age, he's only gotten more obsessively controlling. I can't imagine him letting go of what he feels should be a top babyface, and no longer using WWE's usual slew of propaganda to influence or manipulate the audience. Today's WWE seems to be built less on organic popularity or hatred, and more them telling you what's what until people buy into it or grow indifferent. Well Vince also doesn't have any competition anymore to drive the point home. The only thing that drives them is low ratings. |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Apr 1, 2013 3:02:00 GMT -5
I truly believe that this will never happen while Vince is alive. He seems incapable of giving up control and allowing the winds to blow where they may. If anything, in his old age, he's only gotten more obsessively controlling. I can't imagine him letting go of what he feels should be a top babyface, and no longer using WWE's usual slew of propaganda to influence or manipulate the audience. Today's WWE seems to be built less on organic popularity or hatred, and more them telling you what's what until people buy into it or grow indifferent. Well Vince also doesn't have any competition anymore to drive the point home. The only thing that drives them is low ratings. I feel that not having competition should give them leeway to take more risks. Without direct competition, the WWE should be free to put X storyline on TV without the fear of the viewer saying "Screw this, I'm watching Nitro." |
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Post by celticjobber on Apr 1, 2013 3:42:30 GMT -5
Getting rid of the face/heel dynamic would almost be the same as getting rid of the wrestling ring, simply a horrendous idea.
Like it or not, at the end of the day -- pro wrestling has pretty much always been about good vs. evil. Even in the beloved Attitude era.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 7:17:31 GMT -5
Getting rid of the face/heel dynamic would almost be the same as getting rid of the wrestling ring, simply a horrendous idea. Like it or not, at the end of the day -- pro wrestling has pretty much always been about good vs. evil. Even in the beloved Attitude era. This, for sure. Getting rid of faces and heels is a good way to get both older fans and younger kids to tune out. I don't want to see "bad-ass" kinda-good-but-not-really guy vs. "bad-ass" kinda-bad-but-not-really guy. |
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Apr 1, 2013 7:24:20 GMT -5
Getting rid of the face/heel dynamic would almost be the same as getting rid of the wrestling ring, simply a horrendous idea. Like it or not, at the end of the day -- pro wrestling has pretty much always been about good vs. evil. Even in the beloved Attitude era.Exactly. People forget that the Stone Cold vs. Vince McMahon feud was essentially a hero with a chip on his shoulder (a very massive one in Austin's case) versus the oppressive evil boss who wanted to maintain his assertive control over the company. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 8:37:12 GMT -5
What's the difference between John Cena and Zack Ryder (without Z!TLIS, mic time, or any other medium to express himself) other than one wears shorts and one wears trunks? Cena can cut a live promo. |
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Post by cool guy on Apr 1, 2013 8:46:42 GMT -5
Obviously going completely into a sort of "grey and grey" morality system for the whole show would be a massive disaster, but that's hardly the only option here. Ideally, the WWE isn't one story with a single creative direction, it's a dozen different feuds between all sorts of different characters, and there's no reason we can't have a "Cena/Punk 2011" type story where both sides have a logical viewpoint without being portrayed as wrong running during the same show as straight-up evil monster like Lesnar.
It's not necessarily "the next evolution of wrestling" or anything but it's a creative technique that, when applied with care, can add some much-needed variety to the show.
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zeez
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Post by zeez on Apr 1, 2013 9:35:32 GMT -5
Well Vince also doesn't have any competition anymore to drive the point home. The only thing that drives them is low ratings. I feel that not having competition should give them leeway to take more risks. Without direct competition, the WWE should be free to put X storyline on TV without the fear of the viewer saying "Screw this, I'm watching Nitro." Maybe, but now they have to contend with the fear of the viewer saying, "Screw this, I'm gonna stop watching wrestling." |
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Apr 1, 2013 10:45:21 GMT -5
I feel that not having competition should give them leeway to take more risks. Without direct competition, the WWE should be free to put X storyline on TV without the fear of the viewer saying "Screw this, I'm watching Nitro." Maybe, but now they have to contend with the fear of the viewer saying, "Screw this, I'm gonna stop watching wrestling." Yes, actually my thinking is with Zeez and the opposite of yours. With the extra hours of Raw and Main Event, I think it tends to promote lazy writing and booking. Why do anything substantial with characters when you can promote outside projects and dumb comedy skits? |
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Post by osiris on Apr 1, 2013 10:48:05 GMT -5
The only reason face/heel dynamic is "dying" is because fans try to turn their favorites face. If a wrestler can't get you to boo them they're kind of a failure, because its their job to be hated. Not saying not to cheer who you want, but cheering the heels just makes them seem weak, or you seem kind of dikish.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Apr 1, 2013 12:06:33 GMT -5
But on the flipside, there's two different issues to that: -There is a bit of "chicken or the egg" going on- fans try to turn their favorites face, but at the same time, WWE refuses to take organic popularity or hatred, instead telling you what you're supposed to want [and the only chance that wrestling fans get to say what they REALLY want is in their crowd reactions]. And this is also a problem because of the other part: -ALL of the most legendary "franchise-tier" faces- it doesn't matter who it was- got their start by being heels that the fans turned face at the beginning. It's almost impossible for a babyface to be a TOP babyface UNLESS they're a heel the fans turn face, in addition to it [the only "franchise-level" babyfaces you can argue were that way from the beginning were The Rock (who needed the fans to viciously turn on him as that type of franchise-level babyface for him to turn the corner- when he turned heel, and became so good at it the fans turned him face] and Bruno ) |
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Post by osiris on Apr 1, 2013 12:13:53 GMT -5
Hulk hogan (not sure if fans turned him) sting rock (baby face fans turned heel) edge
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Post by Dub H on Apr 1, 2013 12:18:00 GMT -5
Hulk hogan (not sure if fans turned him) sting rock (baby face fans turned heel) edge Edge was turned face because of his actions against the Anonymous General Manager(tough i think the way they made the General MAnager screw Edge helped).But he was a heel. Not like it matters much,Edge always was more of a top heel than a top face. |
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