Were we supposed to want ADR to beat up Zeb?

[Ryback on a Pole!]

A cocky, arrogant bully (yes even as a face he still like that) wanting to beat up an old war hero? And we're supposed to cheer for the bully?

I was delighted when Swagger and ADR beat him down. Plus I found the beatdown to be hilarious. Really, the only entertaining part of Raw ;D ;D ;D


On another note, they need to make Swagger and Zeb more heelish... as in outright bigots who hate ALL immigrants rather than patriots just fed up with illegally immigration.

[keepinitreal365]

Um they clearly stated that Zeb challenged ADR. How does that make adr cocky and arrogant?

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Apr 2, 2013 8:22:11 GMT -5 keepinitreal365 said:

Um they clearly stated that Zeb challenged ADR. How does that make adr cocky and arrogant?

Everything he's done as a face has reeked of being an arrogant, bullying douche.

If an old man who was a war hero challenged me to a fight I'd... well, I'd get my ass kicked. But if I was a tough guy like ADR and one challenged me, I wouldn't accept out of A) respect for what he's done and B) because it's a bit nasty for a young, in-shape, physically superior guy to want to beat on a fat old man.

Really, is it possible to beat on an old guy (even if he did challenge you) without coming across as an utter dickhead? Granted, ADR didn't beat on Zeb but he was going too.

Besides, ADR's stupidity gives me another reason to dislike him. Was there any possible chance at all that this wasn't going to be a set up and wouldn't end with ADR getting beat down?

[sybaku]

This appears to be trolling, but if it isn't.....

Zeb challenged ADR
Zeb had Swagger break ADR's friends Ankle for no reason at all
Zeb says he was in Vietnam, says nothing about being a hero hell for all we know he went there in 93 to start a sweatshop

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Trolling? Nope not really.

I've pointed out why ADR came across as a dick for accepting a challenge to fight a guy obviously way out of shape and too old for it.

True, fair point. but honestly, I can barely remember anything ADR and Ricardo do after a couple of days so I've actually forgotten the circumstances behind Ricardo having his ankle broke.

Ridiculous argument and Zeb has said he met Swagger's father fighting in the war so his war hero background is established. In fact kinda related but is Zeb a Vietnam war vet in real life or is just for part of his character?

[keepinitreal365]

Apr 2, 2013 8:26:19 GMT -5 Ryback on a Pole! said:

Apr 2, 2013 8:22:11 GMT -5 keepinitreal365 said:

Um they clearly stated that Zeb challenged ADR. How does that make adr cocky and arrogant?

Everything he's done as a face has reeked of being an arrogant, bullying douche.

If an old man who was a war hero challenged me to a fight I'd... well, I'd get my ass kicked. But if I was a tough guy like ADR and one challenged me, I wouldn't accept out of A) respect for what he's done and B) because it's a bit nasty for a young, in-shape, physically superior guy to want to beat on a fat old man.

Really, is it possible to beat on an old guy (even if he did challenge you) without coming across as an utter dickhead? Granted, ADR didn't beat on Zeb but he was going too.

Besides, ADR's stupidity gives me another reason to dislike him. Was there any possible chance at all that this wasn't going to be a set up and wouldn't end with ADR getting beat down?

Um you do realize this is entertainment right??? From some of your posts in regards to adr your obviously one of his haters. If you don't like him fine but really he's the bully?! Nevermind the fact that zeb told swagger to break ricardo's ankle right...or was it past your bed time when that happened and you missed it.

[CM Dazz]

Del Rio is boring as hell to me, and they're trying way too hard to make him likable. That has nothing to do with this feud to me. Its been happening since he first turned.

Also, Ricardo's entrance doesn't work for me without Del Rio's entrance music backing him up. Sounds so bland without it.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Apr 2, 2013 8:41:29 GMT -5 keepinitreal365 said:

Um you do realize this is entertainment right??? From some of your posts in regards to adr your obviously one of his haters. If you don't like him fine but really he's the bully?! Nevermind the fact that zeb told swagger to break ricardo's ankle right...or was it past your bed time when that happened and you missed it.

Steady on, is there any need for the insults?


Honestly, I can barely remember anything ADR has done from one week to the next he is so utterly boring but, I do remember each week thinking "what a dick" over something he's done or said. Along with Sheamus and Miz, he's the least sympathetic face in the WWE.

I just find it baffling how, for some reason we're meant to cheer a guy in a fight with up an overweight, Vietnam vet twice his age who isn't an active wrestler.

[kidglov3s]

I thought that some of the body language could've turned people off. I know this is a classic wrestling spot but I can see where this did make Del Rio seem somewhat menacing. It seemed like Del Rio was going to beat this man to death when he could've just left the scene:



Though I guess I've never really been a fan of the defenseless heel manager gets brutalized spot. Maybe if Zeb had been more cartoonish in backing off. Like this was a little bit more uncomfortable than it would've been if like Heenan or Flair were in his spot. Or maybe because Del Rio himself a lot of the time comes across as an overbearing zealot who is two-faced and manipulating the fans. This feud has always been most coherent to me when I look at it as heel vs heel. And I always somehow manage to miss or not pay attention to the Ricardo stuff. I definitely felt sympathy for Del Rio moments later when Swagger and Zeb were attacking him. I think that it might've worked better had Swagger interceded earlier and you didn't have this beat of Del Rio savoring the vicious murder of Zeb C.

And in answer to the question, we were supposed to want Del Rio to beat up Zeb, just like we were supposed to want Ricardo brutalized all those many times before the sudden face turn, just like we were supposed to want Ultimate Warrior to destroy and humiliate Bobby Heenan, etc. Again, a classic concept in wrestling that I've honestly never been that big a fan of. It's one of the things that really brings to the surface the ugly fascist undertones of the form.

[cabbageboy]

I think Ricardo is the main problem Del Rio has getting over as a face. After 2 years of him doing overbearing ring intros and running interference it's really impossible to ever buy his act as a babyface. The long winded ring intro is still a heel thing to me.

I agree 100% though that Zeb and Swagger need to flat out go full heel and trash all immigrants. The problem with the act is that Zeb Colter in particular seems like that bitter old Vietnam vet that weeps for America that a lot of us know and to some extent kinda understand. It makes the character somewhat tragic instead of someone you want to hate and see get beaten up.

[Sam Punk]

Shades of gray.

[Deleted]

Zeb's a racist. I fail to see how it's a problem with the backwards minded heel getting his.

[Djm Doesn't Find You Funny]

Man, I was really hoping the whole "Babyfaces are jerks" thing that happens here would've finally died out.

Guess not.

[Brainbustaaah!]

Apr 2, 2013 9:02:24 GMT -5 kidglov3s said:

It's one of the things that really brings to the surface the ugly fascist undertones of the form.

[sybaku]

Apr 2, 2013 8:37:03 GMT -5 Ryback on a Pole! said:

Trolling? Nope not really.

I've pointed out why ADR came across as a dick for accepting a challenge to fight a guy obviously way out of shape and too old for it.

True, fair point. but honestly, I can barely remember anything ADR and Ricardo do after a couple of days so I've actually forgotten the circumstances behind Ricardo having his ankle broke.

Ridiculous argument and Zeb has said he met Swagger's father fighting in the war so his war hero background is established. In fact kinda related but is Zeb a Vietnam war vet in real life or is just for part of his character?

Ahh I must have missed that, the sweatshop part was an Always Sunny reference though haha

[Deleted]

Apr 2, 2013 9:43:47 GMT -5 Djm Doesn't Find You Funny said:

Man, I was really hoping the whole "Babyfaces are jerks" thing that happens here would've finally died out.

Guess not.

Especially when the heel is a FREAKIN RACIST. How does that not deserve a beatdown by the face???

[The OP]

Apr 2, 2013 9:29:22 GMT -5 cabbageboy said:

I think Ricardo is the main problem Del Rio has getting over as a face. After 2 years of him doing overbearing ring intros and running interference it's really impossible to ever buy his act as a babyface. The long winded ring intro is still a heel thing to me.

I agree 100% though that Zeb and Swagger need to flat out go full heel and trash all immigrants. The problem with the act is that Zeb Colter in particular seems like that bitter old Vietnam vet that weeps for America that a lot of us know and to some extent kinda understand. It makes the character somewhat tragic instead of someone you want to hate and see get beaten up.

I disagree with this. I think people find Ricardo funny and the ring introduction with the "albertooooooo" almost has an "if you smellllll" type quality to it that could end up working very well for Del Rio's babyface act if it isn't already. I agree the angle would work better if Zeb was more racist, but if he was people would probably complain about that and threaten to boycott the show. It's kind of frustrating that people do that instead of just putting the heat on the heels and not the promotion itself. I don't think wrestling could have evolved to what it is if people had always thought this way. People sometimes like to blame the talent or the company for the modern heel's lack of commitment to being evil and despicable, but then it's like some of the same people complain and threaten to stop watching whenever a heel does something they don't like.

[Deleted]

I can see why it's uncomfortable with the way the two are portrayed, but since I remember his work, I have a hard time not seeing this as Alberto Del Rio vs. "Dirty" Dutch Mantell.

I think that's why I find it much more uncomfortable to see wrestlers beating on someone like Jim Ross as opposed to say, having someone like Ric Flair or Ricky Steamboat presented as a "defenseless old man." Sure, they're old, but as much as I hate the "real fight" argument applied to pro wrestling, they came from the territory era where they are automatically perceived as legit tough guys.

Apr 2, 2013 9:59:29 GMT -5 The OP said:

I agree 100% though that Zeb and Swagger need to flat out go full heel and trash all immigrants. The problem with the act is that Zeb Colter in particular seems like that bitter old Vietnam vet that weeps for America that a lot of us know and to some extent kinda understand. It makes the character somewhat tragic instead of someone you want to hate and see get beaten up.

This is something I also agree with.

It seems like they're holding back on Zeb, and although it's probably out of the fear of going too far, it's making him seem more like your old uncle with outdated social beliefs than some kind of dangerous, survivalist cult leader. The last thing they want to do is make people think, "oh, he's saying things that are obviously wrong, but he's an old man from a different time, and that's kind of sad."

It's probably very strange, but one thing that makes seem Zeb just seem more tragic than evil to me is the fact that I've noticed he's wearing a wedding ring.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

I would. with other heels I can often understand the sympathy, but Zeb's a xenophobic cuckoo-pants.

[Kitty Shamrocks]

Apr 2, 2013 10:31:18 GMT -5 Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! said:

I would. with other heels I can often understand the sympathy, but Zeb's a xenophobic cuckoo-pants.

Yeah, when the heel is a nutbar portrayed to be vaguely racist, yes, I do want to see him get beat up.