SOR
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Post by SOR on Apr 6, 2013 2:27:56 GMT -5
I read everywhere that Vince Russo is not a good booker or writer. People say he struggles to write a good middle and ending to feuds and story lines and he gets a lot of hate for bad ideas and story telling. I completely disagree with that and have a theory.
The problem with Russo's booking isn't that he's a bad booker, writer or anything like that it's just that he rushes his good ideas and I think that's where the hate comes from.
For example I was recently watching a Monday Nitro episode from May or June of 2000. On the card we had Vampiro/Sting in a Cage. Awesome/Nash in an Ambulance Match, Lex Luger's return, Ric Flair winning the World Heavyweight Title, Vampiro putting Sting's car on fire and Russo, David Flair and Daffney invading Ric Flair's house.
So whilst all these ideas are good Russo would throw them all onto the one show whilst WWE would probably take one idea and build the show around that. So whilst WWE could get a months programming out of all that Russo would put his best ideas on the 1 show and then 2 weeks from then he'd have nothing which lead to uneventful programming and boring shows.
So I'm curious about what you all think. Is Vince Russo really that bad from an idea's and writing perspective or is he just guilty of wanting to see all his ideas play out on TV as soon as possible and pushing them as quickly as possible?
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 6, 2013 5:33:50 GMT -5
I think Vince Russo's biggest mistake was putting himself on TV in WCW, he gave a name and a face to what wrestling fans consider bad booking, he gets blamed for a lot of what happened before and after his stints there and people ignore that toward the end, WCW was effectively unbookable thanks to most of the main event roster having creative control clauses in their contracts thanks to Eric Bischoff. It's hard to book a feud when one of the parties can turn around at any time and say 'yeah, I don't think I want to lose this match we've been building to for weeks' leading to last minute booking and clumsy swerves.
He's an incredibly creative guy, the problem is a lot of his ideas aren't that great and he needs someone working with him to help filter and keep him focused on the ones that will work, problem is in WCW and TNA he didn't have one. In his defense though, I never got the 'box of toys' feeling from Russo's booking, if he has someone, he'll try to give them something to do, some storyline or feud to try to get them over rather than the way the WWE has been booked in recent years, where most of the card has no storyline and people just get forgotten about for weeks on end then released because they're not over.
i do think he has a lack of respect for wrestling history, for the fact titles are meant to mean something and he didn't seem to get that there's only so many times you can have a shock title change before it loses all impact, likewise I think he has a lack of respect for international stars, but he was trained as a booker in the WWF where they were treated more as a novelty than an integral part of the show.
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Emmet Russell
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Post by Emmet Russell on Apr 6, 2013 6:22:25 GMT -5
I like Russo. He comes across as a fairly good guy with a great imagination; just sometimes he needs people to help reel his ideas in so they make sense in the long run.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2013 7:14:17 GMT -5
Vince Russo gains a lot of heat for the way he booked WCW and frankly, he deserves all of it.
He came into the company that for years was the no 1 company, they wern't when he arrived, but everything was there to turn that around.
WCW's biggest strength was the wrestling matches. You would always get several good matches on Nitro and even Thunder. Sports Entertainment was their weakness as most of the roster had little personality.
The fans, including me didn't care about that, if we wanted SE we could watch WWF. WE WANTED TO WATCH WRESTLING!!!!
Russo disagreed. He immediately went the SE rout, which made almost all the WCW roster look bad. He took Goldberg, who was just as over as Steve Austin was, and put him in a vest, turned him heel AND sent on a talkshow to challenge Austin to a match.....all of which hurt the character. He was made to look second rate.
SO he takes Booker T, who was over and changed him into a second rate Rock. The Bookend!? Really? The Axe kick was awesome, he didn't need any more moves. And hearing him say "the people" all the time made him look crap.
True, he couldn't do much about Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair who were both wayyyyy past their used by dates, and yes he had the right idea by finally pushing Bret Hart. It was hardly his fault when Bret's career was ended.
But that doesnt excuse the biggest mistake ever! David Arquette as WCW champion! Come on, this was pathetic attention grabbing that made pro wrestling look like a bad circus side show. Even today, fans are still angry about that. Besides if he was going down that path, why use a D list actor? Why not use said actors wife? A lister Courtney Cox? She was way more famous than Arquette and would have gained quite a lot more attention.
This giant ball of S*** gained exactly zero new fans, god only knows how many fans they lost through it.
One of WCW biggest strength's was its Cruserweight division. Russo phased it out, and even said, he didn't want Mexican or Japanese wrestlers on his show. Who cares what the WCW fans wanted.
The biggest thing though, is their researching department completed a year long survey on what fans wanted to see. Russo dismissed it straight out.
WCW was just one load of rubbish on top of another, every week, until you just hated it. Current WWE is the same.
So eventually it happened, I stopped watching, and went over to the WWF. A year later WCW was dead.
So he gets a job from his friend Jeff Jarrett, and shows that he has learnt nothing. TNA is a bad joke and is only saved when Dixie Carter decides to buy it.
My ultimate verdict on Russo is simple, he thinks he is better than he really is, and he has no respect for what fans say or want. So he will always be a failure in wrestling and I seriously hope he never comes back.
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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Apr 6, 2013 13:28:50 GMT -5
The only thing Russo deserves credit for is that he gave something for every person on the roster to do. We cared about every single guy who came through the curtain in some way, form or fashion during his tenure at WWF, when he left it was nothing but Austin, Trips, Rock and their 20 minute promos.
Everything else he gets blamed for is 100% justified.
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NOwave
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Post by NOwave on Apr 7, 2013 12:56:27 GMT -5
Most of the comments here are based in truth. Russo is a talented guy who is less a wrestling fan, and more a pop culture fan. His writing and booking reflect that. As a result, he doesn't really understand or empathize with the fans of classic wrestling. Which is why I don't entirely agree with this:
He really does respect what fans think and want, but he misunderstands who wrestling's fans truly are. Most American pop culture fans have never and will never have any interest in pro wrestling. Russo respects what he perceives they want to see, and in the process alienates the core wrestling fanbase, who want to see something very different from that.
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Post by KobashiChop on Apr 7, 2013 13:03:36 GMT -5
Vince Russo is a rare thing in wrestling. An INSANELY creative booker, but he really suffers when left in charge. He needs a Vince McMahon watching over his shoulder to help him.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 7, 2013 13:08:58 GMT -5
I can't completely hate the guy because for all his faults, he did have some good ideas. plus, he put Hogan in his place, which is something no booker before or since has ever been able to do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 13:42:15 GMT -5
Russo disagreed. He immediately went the SE rout, which made almost all the WCW roster look bad. He took Goldberg, who was just as over as Steve Austin was, and put him in a vest, turned him heel AND sent on a talkshow to challenge Austin to a match.....all of which hurt the character. He was made to look second rate. So he gets a job from his friend Jeff Jarrett, and shows that he has learnt nothing. TNA is a bad joke and is only saved when Dixie Carter decides to buy it. Can't blame Russo for these. Goldberg's challenge to Austin on "The Tonight Show" happened when Russo was still with the WWF, and Russo had only been in TNA a couple months at most before Dixie entered the picture. She was already involved before Russo made his first on-camera appearance in late-2002.
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SOR
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Post by SOR on Apr 7, 2013 14:47:10 GMT -5
Someone above mentioned Hogan and Flair being used up by the time Russo came in but he got some good moments out of both of them.
He phased both Hogan and Flair out by the time he came back in April. Obviously not completely but Hogan went off to feud with Kidman and Flair went into a feud with David Flair. Probably not the best two to try and push (At that time Mike Awesome/Hulk Hogan and Flair/Bagwell would of been ideal) but he did take them away from the main event and put them in the Midcard/Upper Midcard whilst giving guys like Jeff Jarrett, Scott Steiner, Diamond Dallas Page and Goldberg the main event slots.
The Arquette thing has always been interesting to me. I kind of understand from both perspectives though. Russo had Arquette for a lot of dates and had to do something big with him. The only options would be to have Arquette come in and feud with Bischoff or Russo (Which is what I would have done) or have him win the World Title.
Russo obviously was salivating at the thought of having a B List Celebrity win the World Title and the celebrity appeal that went with that. I personally think Arquette winning the company in a match would of got that same media interest but we will never know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2013 16:48:38 GMT -5
I'm not someone. I'm Torgaddon or Torg for short Nice to meet you all. Sorry to all if I came off heavy handed, I came from the Craphole, and you have to argue rather forcefully there to get a point across. I'm still learning the FAN way, but love it here. So am toning myself down. So again sorry guys. But I do have to reaffirm two of my points: 1. There was a study according to "Death of WCW" By a Matt Williams which poled fans for over a year on what they liked and disliked. When this was presented, Russo threw it out and claimed that he was right and everyone else was wrong. That proves he, doesn't respect the fans. 2. David Arquette is indefensible. It is arguably the second biggest blunder of all time (The Invasion was the biggest). You simply cannot put your top title on a non wrestler and keep credibility. Pro wrestling as a whole was made to look stupid and fake. Arquette could have stuck to managing and all would have been fine, with maybe an outside ring shot on Bishoff. Again, outside of the USA, David is not famous at all, and WCW was a global company. But I do have to admit TNA was really getting good in 2009 (when I first watched it) and Russo was at the helm. Things only turned bad, when Hogan came into the company and brought all his buddies.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Apr 7, 2013 16:54:51 GMT -5
50 things going on at once, in 50 different directions, with 50 pointless swerves that made no sense. I think he has earned every bit of his poor reputation.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Apr 7, 2013 17:11:14 GMT -5
Trying to pull a Vince/Eric was dumb too. Yeah, the whole evil boss thing was still going strong st the time. But the difference is that Bischoff was credible in the ring because he was a trained martial artist, Vince McMahon was credible because he has a Herculean physique. Russo was and remains a scrawny guy who doesn't know how to work the ring. Trying to write himself into story lines to win the top title or sleep with the hottest women did not work for him the way theydid for Vince and Eric.
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SOR
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Post by SOR on Apr 7, 2013 22:43:39 GMT -5
Torg,
Arquette was pretty famous at that point and time. He was fresh off of Scream 3 that entire series of films was/are huge. The issue is he is a B List guy so he isn't big enough to come into a promotion and be a manager or something and have the audience care.
They needed a story line to actually have Arquette be in the ring and wrestle (Because that would draw people in) Really the only thing they could do is have him mix it up with either Russo/Bischoff or the Wrestlers.
The problem is Arquette isn't a wrestler so Russo made the wrong choice. He always mentions New York Times and the Courtney Cox/Kurt Russell appearances he got from it but I think Russo would of got that if David Arquette had won Russo's half in the company in a match on Nitro or something
It was a bad idea but not as bad as a lot of people think (in my opinion)
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Apr 8, 2013 0:20:52 GMT -5
My grandfather was a life long NWA/WCW diehard fan, never watched WWF, much like his father before him. My father was a life long fan but became more casual with age, albeit only ever watched WCW when he did watch. My brother and I were raised in this family and it took me a while to discover WWF and be able to watch it. Anyways...
My grandfather and father were disgusted by what Russo did to WCW. Visibly. My grandfather tried to hang onto the company after the WWF guys started filtering in, albeit hated Hogan being there with a passion. But then when WCW got the Sports Entertainment make-over...he couldn't handle it anymore. I remember the last Nitro I watched with him before the last Nitro, which we both watched, and how broken he looked watching the programming. It took a while but Russo wore down my grandfather to the point where he couldn't support the company, in essence, he grew up loving any longer.
I never cared for Russo's work much with WCW either but for that alone, no, I can't say Russo isn't as bad as everybody says.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 8, 2013 0:49:30 GMT -5
No he isn't a bad booker he is a terrible one....without someone filtering out his bad ideas that is.
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Apr 8, 2013 9:16:41 GMT -5
I read everywhere that Vince Russo is not a good booker or writer. People say he struggles to write a good middle and ending to feuds and story lines and he gets a lot of hate for bad ideas and story telling. I completely disagree with that and have a theory. The problem with Russo's booking isn't that he's a bad booker, writer or anything like that it's just that he rushes his good ideas and I think that's where the hate comes from. To be a good booker or wrestling writer you have to be a good storyteller. There's lot more to being a storyteller then just occasionally saying "that would be cool to see" and putting it out there with no context or build or follow-up. A large part of being a good storyteller is having the attention span to tell your story in a coherent narrative and reaching a satisfying, sensical ending. By your own post you admit that Russo didn't/doesn't have the attention span to do that. Thus Vince Russo = bad booker/writer. Good idea man yes, he always has something interesting going on in his head, and yeah that should have a place in a booking/writing team, but that doesn't mean he's a good booker or writer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 9:20:32 GMT -5
Vince Russo is a rare thing in wrestling. An INSANELY creative booker, but he really suffers when left in charge. He needs a Vince McMahon watching over his shoulder to help him. Pretty much this.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 8, 2013 16:15:07 GMT -5
Trying to pull a Vince/Eric was dumb too. Yeah, the whole evil boss thing was still going strong st the time. But the difference is that Bischoff was credible in the ring because he was a trained martial artist, Vince McMahon was credible because he has a Herculean physique. Russo was and remains a scrawny guy who doesn't know how to work the ring. Trying to write himself into story lines to win the top title or sleep with the hottest women did not work for him the way theydid for Vince and Eric. plus when it came to Vince and Eric it was always "I duck this guy for months and abuse my power, and then we have a match and they just destroy me". and that's exactly how they should be booked. with Russo he always insisted on either looking "credible" or winning all the time for some silly contrived reason and never giving the face in the feud the satisfaction of ultimately kicking his teeth in for 15 minutes.
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Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Apr 8, 2013 17:01:26 GMT -5
Trying to pull a Vince/Eric was dumb too. Yeah, the whole evil boss thing was still going strong st the time. But the difference is that Bischoff was credible in the ring because he was a trained martial artist, Vince McMahon was credible because he has a Herculean physique. Russo was and remains a scrawny guy who doesn't know how to work the ring. Trying to write himself into story lines to win the top title or sleep with the hottest women did not work for him the way theydid for Vince and Eric. plus when it came to Vince and Eric it was always "I duck this guy for months and abuse my power, and then we have a match and they just destroy me". and that's exactly how they should be booked. with Russo he always insisted on either looking "credible" or winning all the time for some silly contrived reason and never giving the face in the feud the satisfaction of ultimately kicking his teeth in for 15 minutes. Worse yet, in the interview for Wrestlecrap he did, he came off as so deluded with the "Could dis happen? Yeah maybe...if it happened could I, Vince Russo, become champion? Sure! See, dat's real, dat's da way ya have ta look at it." He never understood that, sure, something totally implausible could happen, but that doesn't mean that it should happen or that's what the fans want to see. Could a Jawa sneak on board the new Death Star? Sure, I guess it could have stowed away or something on a ship that went there. Could that Jawa then end up in the throne room with Luke, Vader, and the Emperor? Yeah, I guess...the Emperor did tell his guards to leave. Could that Jawa get his hands on Luke's lightsaber without Luke, Vader, or Palpatine seeing him? Uh, maybe, but highly unlikely. Could that Jawa then kill both Vader and Palpatine with a single swing of that lightsaber? There's always a chance, I guess...but geez, it'd be less than one billionth of a percent of that ever happening. Could that Jawa then give Luke his lightsaber back? Sure, no problem with this...I guess. And could Luke, upon trying to activate the lightsaber the Jawa just gave him, realize it's only a worthless flashlight, and the Jawa still has his lightsaber and cut down Luke and declare himself the new Emperor? SWERVE!!! That's Russo booking and reasoning. I understand feeling sorry for the guy because he gets ripped apart so badly by pretty much everyone. But honestly, he does bring it on himself and sadly, a lot of the harsh criticisms thrown his way are justly deserved.
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