fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 39,065
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Post by fw91 on Apr 12, 2013 22:56:12 GMT -5
no rugrats?
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Apr 12, 2013 23:11:39 GMT -5
Eh, no Seth McFarlane garbage makes this an okay list. The list itself is pretty inconsistent and some of the rationales are iffy at best.
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Post by Red Impact on Apr 12, 2013 23:18:00 GMT -5
Hey guys, I worked on this list. Kind of. I mean, I nominated some things and wrote some entries, but I'd be lying if I said I had much involvement outside of that. Don't want to steal my friends' thunder, as they were a lot more into it than I was! Anyway, something to keep in mind about this list is that it's already nearing two years old. I am very pleased to see people reading our work, but I honestly don't like this thing much anymore, as I take issue with a lot of it myself. I am happy to hear your criticisms and respond to any questions you might have about it. Your feedback will almost certainly be taken into account should I convince the rest of the staff to revisit this list some day. Just know that you're preaching to the choir on certain things. haha I don't think I would have ranked Ed, Edd and Eddy at all, much less as high as they did. Avatar: The Last Airbender would be much higher on my list. While I like mos of the shows on there, the lack of Samurai Jack is a real disservice to it. I actually wanted Samurai Jack on the list, and it barely didn't make the cut. I mean barely. It was almost there! Their reasons for dismissing Teen Titans makes me take them a lot less seriously too. I could understand not including it on the list (although including American Dragon is baffling to me, since that show was awful), but I can't buy the notion that there's no character development or no good villains aside from Slade. I didn't write the Teen Titans thing, but upon revisiting it, I agree with you. Still not sure I'd put it on the list personally, but it's definitely better than we gave it credit for. I also hate AD btwI wish Tartakovsky's Clone Wars series got more than a passing mention in the Samurai Jack not-included entry. You want to talk about menacing, that series made Grievous into a legitimately terrifying threat, mowing through Jedi like it was nothing. In the following Clone Wars series, and the movie, he was bitched out, but in that series you felt like he could beat anything. But that didn't have the overall coolness that Samurai Jack did. Samurai Jack took risks, it had countless homages to countless other sources, from 300 to Lady and the Tramp to Totoro, and it was rare that it didn't pull it off. Samurai vs. Ninja is the most well done action scene in animation history. It sort of feels like it's getting punished for being episodic since most of the action cartoons save Batman: THe Animated Series had overarching plots, but I think that misses the point. In each episode, what we got was almost always amazing, with a new hope of a way back home, and the heartbreaking way that it's taken away. All the while, we see how absolutely versatile that the series was, presenting itself in several different genres in a way it couldn't have if it was episodic. The world isn't lifeless, it's just not directly defined, and that's a major difference to me. I can handle a minimalistic world if the story you present is interesting, and SJ was always interesting. And despite the clashing genres, they all still somehow fit with the universe. And the comment about it being lifeless... the only response I have to that is go watch Tale of X-9. It's Tartakovsky's tribute to noir, and it is absolutely gutwrenching. I love JLU, but that episode, to me, was more heartbreaking than any of the major plots that JL/JLU did (but to be fair, Samurai Jack didn't have The Question, so points to JLU). What irked me about teen titans was just how incredibly dismissive the entry of the series was. "Objectively Bad" is a phrase that belongs to something like "Tom goes to the Mayor" or "Assy McGee," not one of the more interesting action cartoons. As for the statement about Slade being the only menacing villain... not really, no. Yeah they did goofy a lot on the show, and they actually did it really well. Bunniraven -Or- How to make the Titananimals Disappear was really funny. But it also gave us Trigon. While the last season is looked at less favorably, they built up the Brotherhood of Evil remarkably well. And if we're going to dismiss the Terra arc because we didn't have a lot of time to get to know her before it concluded, then we really shouldn't be giving Batman: The Animated Series any credit for how it humanized villains either. Harvey Dent was an ancillary character before he got changed over the course of an episode, after all. The only other thing I'd have to say is that it doesn't seem like the criteria was followed evenly throughout. I talk particularly about the "modern Cartoon Network" shows that the description basically said they were too new to be included, but then Avengers had just finished it's first season. I don't get how 2 seasons of Adventure Time makes it too new to be included, but one of Avengers is enough to show that it stood the test of time? And if we're talking about a time factor here, it's really pretty ridiculous to dismiss all of the 80's action cartoons for being poorly animated, when animation capabilities didn't really improve until the 90's. The old Hannah Barbara cartoons aren't "well animated" either, and early CGI has aged about as well as milk has, but that didn't stop ReBoot and Beast Wars. If you're going to take animation quality into account, you have to take it into account relative to what was possible at the time. It doesn't seem like the list did that evenly.
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Post by wildojinx on Apr 13, 2013 0:32:41 GMT -5
No Fleischer/Famous Superman cartoons? Without those you wouldnt have B:TAS in the first place. Heck, i would have given those Huckleberry Hound's spot (i like huck and yogi too, dont get me wrong, but the superman cartoons were much more significant).
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Foggle
Mike the Goon
Mr. Pink
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Post by Foggle on Apr 13, 2013 0:35:57 GMT -5
Was there any Hasbro shows on the list, I didn't see Transformers or GI Joe at all, no My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, but on the subject, one cartoon show often over looked, I think it was every bit as good as Transformers G1 AND GI Joe, but Jem and the Holograms, that was a very good especially for its time. Beast Wars was on the list! I think MLP would probably have been on there had it been made more recently. Don't miss my other posts. I love that show too. I just don't see how in any way ; animation, character development (cited as why the Ventures wasn't on the list) or even just laughs)it's better. I understand, believe me. Personally, I love both the Eds and what I've seen of the Ventures, but not everyone agreed. Ha, that was great! Can't believe I haven't seen this short before. I for one a glad Ed,Edd, and Eddy was ranked so high. Best comedy cartoon of all time IMO. This list needs the Disney shorts, and Too Stupid Dog though. I agree with your suggestions! And while I wouldn't say EEnE is my favorite cartoon comedy, it's near the top for me. Kind of a sucky list, to be honest. The order seems completely random, it's way too heavy on cartoons from the last 10-15 years for what is supposed to be an "all-time" list, lumping all '80s cartoons together as "formulaic, poorly written and animated" is an unforgivable generalization, and - as has been pointed out already in this thread - the rationale behind some of the snubs (especially Teen Titans, Scooby-Doo, and Venture Bros.) makes little sense. Agreed on all accounts. To be honest, I am somewhat embarrassed of this list and would like it to go through a major revision. Well, uh, isn't that the point? I remember seeing this list when it first came out. I appreciate parts of it, particularly avoiding loading it up with nostalgic favorites that have aged horribly and have striking flaws that you don't notice as a little kid but stick out like sore thumbs as you get older. Of course then they blow that to hell by including Johnny Quest in the top 10 when it really only has nostalgia going for it. Absolutely. In my opinion, Johnny Quest (and The Flintstones, I might add) do not belong anywhere near a list like this. Indeed. I talked to the writer of that piece, and he apologizes sincerely for being dickish about it. Yup. Once again, I agree with ya. While I'm not doing backflips over current Simpsons episodes, I think it's had very few episodes over its history I could label as truly "awful" (Boys of Bummer and Dude Where's My Ranch are two of the only ones that immediantly come to my mind). At worst, it's descended into "just ok" levels lately, whereas its first 11 or so seasons had some of the funniest and often heartfelt writing on TV in any era period, not just in animation. And I also agree with this. I think it's top 25 material for sure, but not top 5. The "good" seasons are certainly amazing, though. It almost made it, IIRC. Really close, just like Samurai Jack. And the comment about it being lifeless... the only response I have to that is go watch Tale of X-9. It's Tartakovsky's tribute to noir, and it is absolutely gutwrenching. I love JLU, but that episode, to me, was more heartbreaking than any of the major plots that JL/JLU did (but to be fair, Samurai Jack didn't have The Question, so points to JLU). I don't remember who wrote the Samurai Jack piece, but I do not and have never agreed with what he had to say. Believe me, I'm well aware of this list's inconsistency in every capacity. That's one of the reasons why I don't like it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 1:08:59 GMT -5
To me, the Simpsons is more about the quality of the good vs. the quantity of the bad. Sure, there have been about 12 seasons that were mostly stinkers by now, but they weren't aggressively bad, just very "blah." There hasn't been a lot of out-and-out crap (oh, but there has been some), but when you look at the numbers now, a lot of so-so episodes added to the run of a series that used to hit a home run every week makes the gems seem more scarce than they really are.
The Simpsons is a strange case, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it has run so long that there is now a younger generation who can't recall a time when it was good and, looking at what it has become, doesn't understand what the fuss is all about. When you look at the series as a whole, it shares a similar situation with Star Wars. You can take a masterpiece and pile garbage on it for years, but unless you let the new version leave a bad taste in your mouth, it can't do squat to affect the quality of the original.
Even if it runs for a hundred more seasons and sucks worse every year, it will continue to rank that high on reviewers' lists because that first decade was so good that no other shows have really outmatched either the quality of those episodes or the sheer number of great ones.
Also, I'm surprised The Critic doesn't pop up more on these lists.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 13, 2013 1:28:25 GMT -5
Also, I'm surprised The Critic doesn't pop up more on these lists. Only having two seasons and bouncing from ABC to FOX probably didn't do it any favors.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 1:40:16 GMT -5
Also, I'm surprised The Critic doesn't pop up more on these lists. Only having two seasons and bouncing from ABC to FOX probably didn't do it any favors. True, that probably plays a gigantic role in why it's not more widely appreciated. When judging the show, that's where quality vs. quantity comes into play the most, though, because the only thing close to a bad episode in those two seasons was the clip show finale. When a show's biggest fault lies with how the networks handled it, that speaks very highly of it, IMO. How would a show that ended after two nearly flawless seasons stack up against a (hypothetical) show that ran for two equally great seasons and ten terrible ones? It really makes you think about how the Simpsons would be regarded today if it had stopped after about season 4.
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Knailsic From Now On
Dennis Stamp
Loneliest Number Since #1
Waiting with my red eyes and my stone heart
Posts: 4,365
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Post by Knailsic From Now On on Apr 13, 2013 3:26:57 GMT -5
Loved Yu Yu Hakusho and Monster's rankings, but felt Courage and Avatar were a little too low ,also even though I'm not a fan of it's currently suprised Family Guy wasn't on there.
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mattperiolat
King Koopa
Thank you, Brodie... for everything.
Posts: 11,445
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Post by mattperiolat on Apr 13, 2013 6:53:42 GMT -5
With all the love given Japanese anime on the list, surprised neither Robotech nor Battle of the Planets got top 50 honors.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Apr 13, 2013 6:56:47 GMT -5
I'm surprised Cow and Chicken made the list, given that it seems to be very polarizing compared to the cartoons it premiered with.
Pleasantly, mind you, as I thought it's characterization was great. Supercow and The Red Guy were some of my favorite characters from the Cartoon Cartoons.
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Gus Richlen Was Wrong
Patti Mayonnaise
Metal Maestro: Co-winner of the FAN Idol Throwdown!
Fun while it lasted
Posts: 38,519
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Post by Gus Richlen Was Wrong on Apr 13, 2013 11:37:12 GMT -5
With all the love given Japanese anime on the list, surprised neither Robotech nor Battle of the Planets got top 50 honors. There's several other shows that didn't make the list either. And I'm a little surprised by how high or low some of those that are on went.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Apr 13, 2013 12:29:00 GMT -5
When choosing lists to go in my best lists of all time list, this one never came up and I was surprised at the feedback for not including it. Look, some of the choices are good, but Cow and Chicken was really the only great choice. A lot of the picks are lazy, like The Simpsons and all of Warner's theatrical shorts as one entry. I'm sorry, but this list is objectively bad.
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