Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Cronant on May 1, 2013 6:53:08 GMT -5
AJ and Dolph compared Kaitlyn to a hippopotamus and a water buffalo last week. Those seem like fat insults to me. Well I don't really mind it since she is a heel and as long as she gets proper comeuppance than it doesn't really bother me much. I'm kinda doubting she will get that comeuppance.
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Post by ________ has left the building on May 1, 2013 6:58:51 GMT -5
Well I don't really mind it since she is a heel and as long as she gets proper comeuppance than it doesn't really bother me much. I'm kinda doubting she will get that comeuppance. Sure she will. People forget the payoff for Piggie James was a squash match where Mickie owned Michelle McCool and won the Divas title. I'm just surprised no one is calling AJ "Skeletor" or "McRib" like they did for McCool.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 7:21:07 GMT -5
When people say things like the Bellas are "conceited", are you confusing their on-screen characters with the real life Nicole and Brianna? Because they don't seem that way to me in shoot interviews and on their Twitter account (before they re-signed with WWE and started Tweeting alot "in character"). I don't think it's so much that they're conceited, but that they are approaching Michelle McCool-esque levels of getting pushed, despite being below-average wrestlers and never getting over with fans, and have never really done anything to get themselves over. Sure, they're not necessarily champions, but they're getting their own TV show made about them. They can't even get a live crowd response at most shows, and yet they were brought back to the company. There's other women far better than them all-around who languish in the indies, and these girls get the nod based on who they're dating. And their own TV series. Seriously, when was the last time any woman got that?
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Post by HR on May 1, 2013 7:28:34 GMT -5
Well WWE (since they've been planning this for a while) and E! obviously. And you underrate how many Diva fans there are out there, and just how many of them love the Real Housewives types of shows. Lol, yeah I seriously doubt there are many diva fans out there left, let alone ones that actually like Real Housewives. You clearly don't know what you're talking about then! When people say things like the Bellas are "conceited", are you confusing their on-screen characters with the real life Nicole and Brianna? Because they don't seem that way to me in shoot interviews and on their Twitter account (before they re-signed with WWE and started Tweeting alot "in character"). I don't think it's so much that they're conceited, but that they are approaching Michelle McCool-esque levels of getting pushed, despite being below-average wrestlers and never getting over with fans, and have never really done anything to get themselves over. Sure, they're not necessarily champions, but they're getting their own TV show made about them. They can't even get a live crowd response at most shows, and yet they were brought back to the company. There's other women far better than them all-around who languish in the indies, and these girls get the nod based on who they're dating. And their own TV series. Seriously, when was the last time any woman got that? They're not even close to being pushed to the same level that Michelle was. She dominated the division for months and months. They even buried people like Alicia Fox dead so that Michelle could get achievements like unifying the tag titles. The Bellas have won a few matches for about a month now...yet their Mania match got bumped and Nikki's apparent title match against Kaitlyn has been derailed to AJ instead. And it's really no surprise that they are going to be featured on the reality show. They're excellent characters, and they're absolutely gorgeous. They're the perfect candidates to exploit this market, and it's a shame that people can't just be happy about it and acknowledge that - and constantly have to sprout off about how they're only getting things because they're dating Cena and Bryan. It's pretty pathetic that we're still operating in such a sexist world.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 7:33:16 GMT -5
Just because there's a horde of high school kids who obsessively tweet about divas doesn't mean it's going to work as a show. Consider what Smackdown's ratings are, now ask what those ratings would be like if there was no wrestling, and no men on the show.
This is going to be a disaster that gets swept under the rug.
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Post by HR on May 1, 2013 7:38:14 GMT -5
Just because there's a horde of high school kids who obsessively tweet about divas doesn't mean it's going to work as a show. Consider what Smackdown's ratings are, now ask what those ratings would be like if there was no wrestling, and no men on the show. This is going to be a disaster that gets swept under the rug. I have no evidence for this, but I don't exactly think all of E!'s shows are ratings juggernauts. I'm sure there are more than enough wrestling/diva fans who will watch it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 7:43:31 GMT -5
I don't think it's so much that they're conceited, but that they are approaching Michelle McCool-esque levels of getting pushed, despite being below-average wrestlers and never getting over with fans, and have never really done anything to get themselves over. Sure, they're not necessarily champions, but they're getting their own TV show made about them. They can't even get a live crowd response at most shows, and yet they were brought back to the company. There's other women far better than them all-around who languish in the indies, and these girls get the nod based on who they're dating. And their own TV series. Seriously, when was the last time any woman got that? They're not even close to being pushed to the same level that Michelle was. She dominated the division for months and months. They even buried people like Alicia Fox dead so that Michelle could get achievements like unifying the tag titles. The Bellas have won a few matches for about a month now...yet their Mania match got bumped and Nikki's apparent title match against Kaitlyn has been derailed to AJ instead. And it's really no surprise that they are going to be featured on the reality show. They're excellent characters, and they're absolutely gorgeous. They're the perfect candidates to exploit this market, and it's a shame that people can't just be happy about it and acknowledge that - and constantly have to sprout off about how they're only getting things because they're dating Cena and Bryan. It's pretty pathetic that we're still operating in such a sexist world. Here's the difference though: AJ, although not a massive star by any means, is certainly more over than the Bellas are. Her getting attention over them is fair because nobody in the crowd really cares about them. They aren't getting as much TV time or the wins that Michelle got, but that was back when the wrestling was really emphasized. Now the women hardly do anything and the Bellas keep appearing. In proportion to what composes the product, they're getting massively promoted. How is it sexist to accuse them of getting pushed based on their relationships? WWE itself is a massively sexist company in the way that it books anything involving women and has a track record of doing this (Michelle McCool, Beth's last title run, etc.). How about Natalya, who's as good a wrestler as a lot of the guys on the roster and hasn't been given a push in years. Instead, she's going to be playing second fiddle to the Bellas on a frigging reality show. She could be putting on great matches, but nope! She's getting that instead. How's that for sexist? Oh but I'm sexist. Yeah, because I just want the women to wrestle, and not see two women who can't get a reaction out of a live crowd get their own TV show. Because I want actual wrestlers on the roster. Because I refuse to accept this hackneyed drama show as a legitimate outlet for women to showcase their talent.
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Post by HR on May 1, 2013 7:57:57 GMT -5
They're not even close to being pushed to the same level that Michelle was. She dominated the division for months and months. They even buried people like Alicia Fox dead so that Michelle could get achievements like unifying the tag titles. The Bellas have won a few matches for about a month now...yet their Mania match got bumped and Nikki's apparent title match against Kaitlyn has been derailed to AJ instead. And it's really no surprise that they are going to be featured on the reality show. They're excellent characters, and they're absolutely gorgeous. They're the perfect candidates to exploit this market, and it's a shame that people can't just be happy about it and acknowledge that - and constantly have to sprout off about how they're only getting things because they're dating Cena and Bryan. It's pretty pathetic that we're still operating in such a sexist world. Here's the difference though: AJ, although not a massive star by any means, is certainly more over than the Bellas are. Her getting attention over them is fair because nobody in the crowd really cares about them. They aren't getting as much TV time or the wins that Michelle got, but that was back when the wrestling was really emphasized. Now the women hardly do anything and the Bellas keep appearing. In proportion to what composes the product, they're getting massively promoted. How is it sexist to accuse them of getting pushed based on their relationships? WWE itself is a massively sexist company in the way that it books anything involving women and has a track record of doing this (Michelle McCool, Beth's last title run, etc.). How about Natalya, who's as good a wrestler as a lot of the guys on the roster and hasn't been given a push in years. Instead, she's going to be playing second fiddle to the Bellas on a frigging reality show. She could be putting on great matches, but nope! She's getting that instead. How's that for sexist? Oh but I'm sexist. Yeah, because I just want the women to wrestle, and not see two women who can't get a reaction out of a live crowd get their own TV show. Because I want actual wrestlers on the roster. Because I refuse to accept this hackneyed drama show as a legitimate outlet for women to showcase their talent. Your reasoning really makes very little sense. The Bellas are not pushed anywhere close to the level that Michelle was. If they were, they'd be Divas Champion, they'd be on TV regularly, and they'd be beating everyone (rather than just Naomi and Cameron). Yes, AJ is more over than the Bellas - what's that got to do with anything? She's more over than most Divas ever have been, and more over than a lot of the guys on the roster too. She deserves that because of what a great talent she is. It's really got very little to do with "proportions". Before the Bellas came back, Eve was getting featured a lot. Was she getting pushed to Michelle McCool levels? No, of course not...and she was champion way longer than the Bellas have been AND was involved in a major storyline with the guys, whereas the Twins had a half-baked partnership with a jobbing tag team. Of course it's sexist to suggest they are only getting what they are because of their relationships. Just because WWE is sexist doesn't make your assertions anymore acceptable. The fact that people instantly jump to assume that the only reason that they are going to be the faces of the reality show is because of Nikki dating Cena is inherently sexist. I'd like those things that you mentioned too, but that doesn't make what you're saying any more acceptable. As much as I'd like to see Natalya get to wrestle more too, her playing second fiddle to the Bellas...well that isn't sexist.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
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Post by kidglov3s on May 1, 2013 8:14:13 GMT -5
I've never gotten this notion that Michelle was pushed so much. I consider getting your own TV show (the ad for the E! show that aired in the arena began with like "Meet the Bella twins" and was all about them for all but like 15 seconds at the end when they showed some of the other girls without naming them) to be a bigger push than like wrestling matches in the Divas division. With this TV show and the role AJ played on Raw last year I would argue that they both have had more substantial pushes than Michelle, whose antics were contained within the women's division, and most often on the women's division of the irrelevant B show Smackdown. Even before this when they were both around and I was watching in 2010-2011 the Bellas were more prominent on Raw than Laycool was.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on May 1, 2013 8:20:24 GMT -5
I've never gotten this notion that Michelle was pushed so much. I consider getting your own TV show (the ad for the E! show that aired in the arena began with like "Meet the Bella twins" and was all about them for all but like 15 seconds at the end when they showed some of the other girls without naming them) to be a bigger push than like wrestling matches in the Divas division. With this TV show and the role AJ played on Raw last year I would argue that they both have had more substantial pushes than Michelle, whose antics were contained within the women's division. ...You have a very esoteric understanding of what it means to be pushed in WWE, then. This thread will be more relevant when/if the Bellas interfere in a title match with Lawler screaming 'Total divas. Total divas!'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 8:52:44 GMT -5
Here's the difference though: AJ, although not a massive star by any means, is certainly more over than the Bellas are. Her getting attention over them is fair because nobody in the crowd really cares about them. They aren't getting as much TV time or the wins that Michelle got, but that was back when the wrestling was really emphasized. Now the women hardly do anything and the Bellas keep appearing. In proportion to what composes the product, they're getting massively promoted. How is it sexist to accuse them of getting pushed based on their relationships? WWE itself is a massively sexist company in the way that it books anything involving women and has a track record of doing this (Michelle McCool, Beth's last title run, etc.). How about Natalya, who's as good a wrestler as a lot of the guys on the roster and hasn't been given a push in years. Instead, she's going to be playing second fiddle to the Bellas on a frigging reality show. She could be putting on great matches, but nope! She's getting that instead. How's that for sexist? Oh but I'm sexist. Yeah, because I just want the women to wrestle, and not see two women who can't get a reaction out of a live crowd get their own TV show. Because I want actual wrestlers on the roster. Because I refuse to accept this hackneyed drama show as a legitimate outlet for women to showcase their talent. Your reasoning really makes very little sense. The Bellas are not pushed anywhere close to the level that Michelle was. If they were, they'd be Divas Champion, they'd be on TV regularly, and they'd be beating everyone (rather than just Naomi and Cameron). Yes, AJ is more over than the Bellas - what's that got to do with anything? She's more over than most Divas ever have been, and more over than a lot of the guys on the roster too. She deserves that because of what a great talent she is. It's really got very little to do with "proportions". Before the Bellas came back, Eve was getting featured a lot. Was she getting pushed to Michelle McCool levels? No, of course not...and she was champion way longer than the Bellas have been AND was involved in a major storyline with the guys, whereas the Twins had a half-baked partnership with a jobbing tag team. Of course it's sexist to suggest they are only getting what they are because of their relationships. Just because WWE is sexist doesn't make your assertions anymore acceptable. The fact that people instantly jump to assume that the only reason that they are going to be the faces of the reality show is because of Nikki dating Cena is inherently sexist. I'd like those things that you mentioned too, but that doesn't make what you're saying any more acceptable. As much as I'd like to see Natalya get to wrestle more too, her playing second fiddle to the Bellas...well that isn't sexist. Don't even get me started on Eve. You must have missed the many times where I complained about her getting pushed akin to Michelle. But it has everything to do with proportion. Women are featured less and less than before. Getting one, two segments is a much stronger marker of someone's relative importance than it's ever been, since numerous girls used to appear all over the show. They barely even wrestle anymore, and again, the Bellas are going to be the stars of the TV show. Now let's look at a definition of sexism, as shown below (Credit: dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexism ). First definition: my assumption is not a stereotype. A stereotype would imply a predisposition to accuse any woman who gets pushed on the basis of their relationships. If Naomi got pushed, I wouldn't accuse her, since she's not dating anyone important (Afaik). Same for Natalya. Same for Eve. I thought Eve was overpushed but it wasn't because of any relationships. Same goes for AJ, really. But Michelle McCool? Beth Phoenix? These women got pushed while in relationships with major stars. The Bellas are both dating major stars right now, and lo and behold, they suddenly got brought back to the company and are getting their on TV show. This isn't a stereotype. This is a case of "Where there's smoke, there's fire." If there's a track record of relationships being parlayed into elevated importance, and the same trends are there, and we call them out on it...how is there anything "sexist" about that? Second definition: how 'bout that Natalya? She can put on great matches but she's relegated to being Khali's valet. She previously had gotten over as a wrestler and then they depushed her and made her do nothing. How is that NOT devaluation? How about Gail Kim and Melina who were treated with hostility for demanding that women actually get some reasonable TV time? How's that for a restricted job opportunity?
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Post by HR on May 1, 2013 9:24:29 GMT -5
If the Bellas are still getting featured this strongly after the reality show finishes, then you might have a legitimate gripe about them being pushed too strongly. Until then, it's little more than the type of push that any decently established stars would receive upon their return.
Saying that they are only back in WWE and getting pushed because they are dating top stars is sexist because it is completely disregarding their talents. It's not like the Bellas are really that much better off now than they were before. In a wrestling sense they are in a virtually identical position than they were before Nikki was ever together with Cena. The reality show is the only thing that has changed - and who knows, WWE apparently wanted some of the other former divas to come back like Kelly and Maryse...if they had said yes maybe they'd be the ones at the forefront of Total Divas.
The relationship thing is so overblown, and the examples you provide back that up. Sure, some of the girls who are at the forefront are dating main event guys within WWE. But there are also some who are dating low card guys who are on TV regularly. And there are some who are in relationships with guys outside of wrestling who get pushed, and there are some who are in relationships outside of wrestling who don't. There's examples to show all of these. Suggesting that the only reason the Bellas are where they are because of who they're dating is wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 9:51:27 GMT -5
The relationship thing can be overblown, yes, but it works both ways. A lot of times people blame relationships when there's no context. Just because some other relationship accusations made without context are wrong, doesn't mean that a relationship accusation made with context is also incorrect. That's as much a generalization as most of the stereotypes of sexism itself. Disregarding their talents?
There's a difference between them and Natalya. Nattie is actually a really good wrestler, and at one point, she was over. Eve, for as hard-pressed as she was to get a reaction, was athletic and could put on decent matches. WWE's booking got too infatuated with her potential and not what was actually there, but if they had tapped that potential then who knows. Maryse was dating Miz, but we still don't even know if she left on her own accord or got booted.
I should probably ask...what talent?
The Bellas are below-average workers, and they've never gotten over. They both got fired when they were single, and after they start dating two of the most important guys in the company are suddenly brought back. Doesn't that give you any pause, to stop and consider what changed and why they were brought back? Why immediately after coming back they're starring in a TV show?
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on May 1, 2013 9:57:05 GMT -5
The Bellas are below-average workers, and they've never gotten over. They both got fired when they were single, and after they start dating two of the most important guys in the company are suddenly brought back. Doesn't that give you any pause, to stop and consider what changed and why they were brought back? Why immediately after coming back they're starring in a TV show? If you're speaking in non-kayfabe terms, the Bellas were never fired. They chose not to renew their contracts. Here's an article on it.
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Post by HR on May 1, 2013 10:03:25 GMT -5
As Black Balloon said, they didn't get fired...and Brie was dating Daniel before they went on hiatus.
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Post by Savage Gambino on May 1, 2013 10:40:33 GMT -5
I would be more excited about a show featuring the Divas not on the show, Kaitlyn, Alicia, AJ, Tamina and Rosa. Replace Rosa with Layla, and you may have something there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 11:08:53 GMT -5
I'm kinda doubting she will get that comeuppance. Sure she will. People forget the payoff for Piggie James was a squash match where Mickie owned Michelle McCool and won the Divas title. This is how Mickie's remaining few months with WWE after the Rumble went. Jan 31: Mickie beats Michelle for the title Feb. 5: Mickie and Beth beat Laycool Feb. 12: Laycool beat Mickie in a handicap match Feb. 26: Michelle beats Mickie to win back the title Mickie is gone until WrestleMania, then doesn't appear on TV again after Mania until her final two WWE appearances, which were..... Apr. 16: Michelle beats Mickie in a non-title match Apr. 23: Layla, who had never got to beat Mickie over the preceding several months, beats Mickie clean with the Lay Out in a tag match also involving Michelle and Beth; Mickie is already fired by the time the match airs And, a couple weeks later in a segment that was supposed to air on Smackdown, Laycool did a backstage skit with Kelly Kelly and Tiffany where they took credit for running "Piggie James" out of WWE. WWE decided to not air it since it would just draw attention to someone they just fired. So, in the end, it was the bullies who came back and avenged their (one-night) humiliation.
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Post by Kidneys4Free on May 1, 2013 11:13:54 GMT -5
Didn't Mickie only lose the title back to McCool because she got injured?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 11:25:25 GMT -5
Didn't Mickie only lose the title back to McCool because she got injured? Doubt it. Beth was going to be Laycool's next opponent, so Michelle probably would have gotten the title back anyways. Plus, why not just have Mickie win the title back in April when she returned if some big run had been planned for her? I think Mickie's Rumble win was supposed to be like Kurt Angle's WWF title win in 2001 where he won, everyone was happy, and then he lost the title 15 days later.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 12:59:51 GMT -5
The Bellas are below-average workers, and they've never gotten over. They both got fired when they were single, and after they start dating two of the most important guys in the company are suddenly brought back. Doesn't that give you any pause, to stop and consider what changed and why they were brought back? Why immediately after coming back they're starring in a TV show? If you're speaking in non-kayfabe terms, the Bellas were never fired. They chose not to renew their contracts. Here's an article on it.Alright, so they didn't renew. Why didn't they renew? Why did they get brought back and suddenly get this attention? Obviously, there's no way to answer that first question, but the second one, I think, has a very distinct answer.
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