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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on May 11, 2013 9:50:48 GMT -5
Another Cracked list so possible language warning just in case. www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/the-5-most-insulting-defenses-nerd-racism/The thing I really don't like about this article is it follows an increasing trend among at least some Cracked writers of lumping groups in as hive minded. For instance, a lot of comic fans I've talked to who would like to see a white King Pin in film would have no problem with the half-black/half-Latino Spider-Man as an an original non-Peter Parker character.I think it's completely possible for a guy to want to see a white guy play King Pin in a movie and for them not to be racist. For the record I didn't particularly hate say Michael Clarke Duncan as King Pin as I'd rather have a good actor play him than a bad one. However, I just don't think that wanting a character to look like he does in his most commonly known form = racist.In that vein if a talented white actor who was also fatter than Michael Clarke Duncan was cast I might have enjoyed the performance more because I would have associated him more with the entertaining source material. As far as I know casting ads still ask for things like "mid-20s African-American male needed" or "late-40s white female needed" and I think that's hardly racist. After all if you need an old Latina woman for a period piece set in Mexico City in the 1940s, an Asian being cast in that part is going to look a little odd. |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on May 11, 2013 9:59:22 GMT -5
I hated hated hated that article. just inflammatory bullshit that doesn't even bother to be fair to the COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE arguments of people who think Johnny Storm should actually look like Johnny Storm. this isn't a minor character like Heimdall or a villain like Electro or Kingpin whose race is unimportant, it's an iconic superhero whose always been a white blonde guy in every other adaptation, comics films or otherwise, and who popular culture will always see that way. it'd be the same if they got an asian guy to play Superman or a samoan to be Batman. people don't hate this possible casting decision because they're racist, they hate it because it's very difficult to make sense of a black guy being the brother of a white girl without adding silly adoption elements into the background that needlessly complicate things, and it also smacks of tokenism.
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Sektor
Unicron
The OTHER Big Red Machine.
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Post by Sektor on May 11, 2013 10:06:17 GMT -5
That entire article was insulting. I could cherry pick points from anyone about any argument and make it look stupid and racist.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on May 11, 2013 10:22:28 GMT -5
Yeah, it's a pretty bad article in pretty much every possible way. It's not funny, it's badly written and worst of it all is that it doesn't even argue anything. It reads more like a forum rant than an article.
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Post by Cela on May 11, 2013 11:18:31 GMT -5
What a douche.
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Post by Munkie91087 on May 11, 2013 11:53:14 GMT -5
Racism among nerdom is a huge problem. Anyone that says otherwise is naive as hell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2013 12:02:15 GMT -5
Yeah I read that earlier as well. Very poorly written and last time I checked Cracked was a comedy website and that read more like a rant than an attempt to be funny. Weird he didn't use the people who complained about the Green Lantern movie and those who complained about the black green lantern being replaced with a white one (Admittly those reactions were hilarious) So long as its a good actor in the role and it makes sense I could give two craps if the actor is green skinned
Actually that's not true......Never liked those types....That's right I said it
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on May 11, 2013 12:07:49 GMT -5
Yeah I read that earlier as well. Very poorly written and last time I checked Cracked was a comedy website and that read more like a rant than an attempt to be funny. Weird he didn't use the people who complained about the Green Lantern movie and those who complained about the black green lantern being replaced with a white one (Admittly those reactions were hilarious) So long as its a good actor in the role and it makes sense I could give two craps if the actor is green skinned Actually that's not true......Never liked those types....That's right I said it Then why is your user name in green? Green lover! Getting back on topic, in addition to it being poorly written what I found surprising is the writer is a workshop moderator for them. Might explain some of those lower quality Cracked pieces. I still love Cracked, but sometimes when they miss they really strike out. |
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Post by HMARK Center on May 11, 2013 12:09:30 GMT -5
Great article in terms of content (writing could use some work). -Isms in "nerd culture" are rampant, the more you highlight them, the better.
I don't see any real "hive mind" argument being bandied about; it's taking specific examples of nerd racism and dissecting them.
It's fine to say "I never imagined <so and so> as a white/black/tan/brown/red/fuschia guy", it's fine to point out when Hollywood is being condescending or pandering in it's attempts to be inclusive, but comic book characters have existed for decades, undergone countless changes to their mythos, personalities, motivations, appearances, and tones of voice, yet portraying one or more of them as a visibly different nationality will ruin things or should even be a source of heated discussion? Please.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on May 11, 2013 12:41:03 GMT -5
Racism among nerdom is a huge problem. Anyone that says otherwise is naive as hell. This does not make the article any more reasonable. "X is Y" does not automatically make "Z shows that X is Y" correct. Nerdom having racism issues does not mean that every time they throw a fit about something they are being motivated by race. There's racism everywhere and yes, among nerds(which is a pretty useless term nowadays but I digress) and yet that does not come even close to making this article's argument valid. Nerds complain about absolutely everything - they got mad over James Bond being blond for Christ's sake. They also got mad that the Mandarin was a white guy. They simply hate everything. The article is pointless because it's trying to give racial motivations to something much, much pettier than that. To use analogue types of nerdery here, it's like if someone was complaining that they hated Mark Henry and was accused of racism. True, that is the only logical explanation as to why someone would hate someone as amazing as Mark Henry but still bro.Worse: it doesn't bother to argue its own position. It just goes on trying to make fun of those arguments--which would be fine if the jokes were funny but they kind of fall flat. Calling attention to isms in geekish stuff is great, but it's better to call attention to actual examples of it. Trying to paint normal, if ridiculous nerd overreaction about changes as though it was about racism is not really helping anyone. Great article in terms of content (writing could use some work). -Isms in "nerd culture" are rampant, the more you highlight them, the better. I don't see any real "hive mind" argument being bandied about; it's taking specific examples of nerd racism and dissecting them. It's fine to say "I never imagined <so and so> as a white/black/tan/brown/red/fuschia guy", it's fine to point out when Hollywood is being condescending or pandering in it's attempts to be inclusive, but comic book characters have existed for decades, undergone countless changes to their mythos, personalities, motivations, appearances, and tones of voice, yet portraying one or more of them as a visibly different nationality will ruin things or should even be a source of heated discussion? Please. That's a valid argument if you are trying to argue that their reaction is dumb(it is). But it's not a valid argument if you are trying to say that racism is the motivation here because, seriously, remember organic web shooters for spider-man? People STILL complain about that and it's a ridiculously minor change. Everything is a source for heated discussions among those circles, trying to isolate one motivation is pretty hard. Not to say that there isn't a lot of ism in nerdom(there is) but this isn't really the best example of it. |
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Post by Red Impact on May 11, 2013 12:56:26 GMT -5
to the background that needlessly complicate things, and it also smacks of tokenism. I'm just curious, is it really that complicated to say "my mom is white and my dad is black" or "My mom got divorced and remarried"? It's not like it'd take an entire movie to explain how two races could possibly be related by blood. |
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 11, 2013 13:01:17 GMT -5
It was a very condescending and unfairly loaded article, but I'm with him on race lifts not being that big a deal in some instances. While it's not racist in and of itself to be bothered by Johnny Storm not looking like his usual comic book self, any potential disservice to the character would be nullified if Jordan got the part and went on to do a good job in the role.
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Sc
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Post by Sc on May 11, 2013 13:19:37 GMT -5
to the background that needlessly complicate things, and it also smacks of tokenism. I'm just curious, is it really that complicated to say "my mom is white and my dad is black" or "My mom got divorced and remarried"? It's not like it'd take an entire movie to explain how two races could possibly be related by blood. It was never explained in the other Fantastic 4 movies. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2013 14:07:39 GMT -5
to the background that needlessly complicate things, and it also smacks of tokenism. I'm just curious, is it really that complicated to say "my mom is white and my dad is black" or "My mom got divorced and remarried"? It's not like it'd take an entire movie to explain how two races could possibly be related by blood. Thank you. I've had to read some of the most ridiculous reasons as to why Michael B. Jordan couldn't possibly play Johnny and most use the "how would they explain why he's black and Susan is white?" stance. I have tanned skin and black hair, my sister has white skin and red hair. We are related by the same mom, whose black. Siblings like that exist. No one seemed to care that Jessica Alba and Chris Evans look nothing alike. |
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Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on May 11, 2013 15:11:34 GMT -5
I hated hated hated that article. just inflammatory bullshit that doesn't even bother to be fair to the COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE arguments of people who think Johnny Storm should actually look like Johnny Storm. this isn't a minor character like Heimdall or a villain like Electro or Kingpin whose race is unimportant, it's an iconic superhero whose always been a white blonde guy in every other adaptation, comics films or otherwise, and who popular culture will always see that way. it'd be the same if they got an asian guy to play Superman or a samoan to be Batman. people don't hate this possible casting decision because they're racist, they hate it because it's very difficult to make sense of a black guy being the brother of a white girl without adding silly adoption elements into the background that needlessly complicate things, and it also smacks of tokenism. Just because a character who is white like Johnny Storm or Batman is more visible as an iconic comic book figure compared to the cinematic representations of Heimdall or Kingpin does not mean that their race is any more or less important to that character. Batman being Samoan changes nothing whatsoever about that character, because how typical is it in comic books for characters to openly comment about a white character's being-white to begin with, whereas other characters, non-white characters, are often identified according to their non-white difference (like the Black Panther, ignoring the political allusion around which the character then debuted). Which in itself is problematic because it assumes as a norm that whiteness is that by which all other racial difference is to be compared, but also because whiteness itself as a racial category becomes effaced and assumed as a given, is assumed to be natural because whiteness is no longer 'as visible' as other racial differences are. Mind you, our perceptions of race as 'difference' is socially determined, and as such race hold no inherent, essential meaning. You wouldn't say "purple is a better colour than green" because what it assumes as fact cannot be tested empirically (qualities and quantities of purpleness to greenness, even insofar as 'better' as a subjective-evaluative signifier is socially determined, even to the point that the science of empiricism is also socially determined, so what constitutes objectivity is really a social product anyway), but why has there historically been such an association with skin colour? It is not skin colour itself that holds any meaning, but the social meanings attached to skin colour that does, often problematically so (racism, slavery, colonialism, genocide, etc.). To this point, given the propensity of predominantly white characters in comic books, if not perhaps the role that white comic book creators have in creating white characters (which we ought to be careful not to assume that having more non-white comic book creators means that there will be more non-white comic book characters), why is it so important that a fictional character must remain white when his identity has not been predicated upon the social meanings of his skin colour? Fictional characters are completely malleable. The Human Torch could be made a woman. The Human Torch could be made into a dog. Within the confines of the context of the story, the Human Torch is what he needs to be. There is no true, essential identity to the Human Torch. Granted, there is a history of how he has been visually represented as a racial character (as being white), and there are audience expectations to how the character should be portrayed because of how long he has been visually represented a certain way. But neither point grants any truth to how the character ought to be portrayed, a point of truth above all other claims to represent the Human Torch otherwise (as black, as a woman, as a dog, etc.), when his representation-as-identity never has been called into question or has been commented upon as being important to begin with. |
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on May 11, 2013 16:06:45 GMT -5
I'll just quote a comment from someone there who explained why such decisions are counter-protective and genuinely insulting far better than I could have myself:
Seriously, casting a Black actor as a White character is basically taking the White character and putting him in blackface. How is that inclusive?
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Glitch
Grimlock
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Post by Glitch on May 11, 2013 16:26:54 GMT -5
This article is pretty much the same thing as when somebody complains about "the iwc".
Random comments do not count as evidence.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on May 11, 2013 17:23:46 GMT -5
Guess what? THIS IS COMMON IN FANDOM. Yes, there are lots of people who aren't racist. There are lots of people who aren't sexist. There are lots of people who aren't homophobic. Does that mean that we should ignore the many (and there are many) that are? Cracked haven't made up these arguments, they've taken actual quotes and posts as examples here. You might see it as an infinitesimally small problem, but this is the background noise that most people might not notice, but for the targets of the bigotry, it's always there.
For my own part, I've seen people vigorously deny that their favourite shows/comics/movies/etc contain any biphobia, even when it's staring them in the face. (Hi, 90% of Supernatural's Tumblr fandom!), and I've no doubt that it's the same with questions of race. In fact, it's most likely an even bigger problem.
We should be praising Cracked for actually bringing it to a wider audience's attention, and it's interesting that the immediate reaction was defensively insulting the author.
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Dat Dude
Dennis Stamp
Wait, what?
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Post by Dat Dude on May 11, 2013 17:28:25 GMT -5
I'll just quote a comment from someone there who explained why such decisions are counter-protective and genuinely insulting far better than I could have myself: Seriously, casting a Black actor as a White character is basically taking the White character and putting him in blackface. How is that inclusive? I would agree if the casting directors were putting out a casting call for black actors for the Human Torch for the sake of diversity, but I don't think that's the case. Maybe they originally had a white actor in mind, but Jordan's audition or previous body of work was more impressive. Maybe he won the role on his own merits and not as a token hire. Actors like Will Smith and Halle Berry made entire careers out of playing roles that were originally intended for white actors because they had the best audition etc. And I bet that a lot folks that are whining about this didn't bat an eyelash when Angelina Jolie played a black woman, or Ben Kingsley played an Indian man (both roles being of real people, not fictional characters), or Hugo Weaving played an Asian man or the countless other "white washing" that has been going on in Hollywood for decades. Hopefully, if Jordan knocks it out the park, all the controversy will blow over. But us nerds can be a stubborn bunch. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on May 11, 2013 17:29:24 GMT -5
Personal opinion? There hasn't been a single comic book adaptation in film, television or animation - from the very first ones in the 1940s through now - that was 100% faithful to the books. What the character looks like is just another piece they tinker with. I don't mind or care anymore. Yeah, it's great when they cast someone who is absolutely spot on to the character (JJJ in the Raimi Spider-Man films), but overall, it's not really that important to me. I want a decent movie, and I realize that what I'm going to see isn't the comic pages translated directly to screen, so it's not a big deal.
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