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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 14:11:19 GMT -5
Because a lot of people are gay. It's not some kind of bizarre peculiarity where only one person is that way. And also because tokenism is most strongly associated with race, gender and sexuality. It's also something that shouldn't necessarily be hidden and ignored in society. There are tons of gay characters out there. Sometimes being gay is a strong part of their character, sometimes not, but it adds different dimensions. We don't live in a bubble. And again, it all depends. A guy like Fandango I feel could definitely pull it off very well. So then why not just have the character happen to be gay and not make it the essence of their character?
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Post by OGJB is Slender on Jul 1, 2013 14:13:24 GMT -5
It's also something that shouldn't necessarily be hidden and ignored in society. There are tons of gay characters out there. Sometimes being gay is a strong part of their character, sometimes not, but it adds different dimensions. We don't live in a bubble. And again, it all depends. A guy like Fandango I feel could definitely pull it off very well. So then why not just have the character happen to be gay and not make it the essence of their character? To what point? If it's not the essence of the character, why bring it up?
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jul 1, 2013 14:15:15 GMT -5
]Again though, you're not doing this stuff to not offend the drecks in your audience who would chant this stuff. I'm sure you're going to have some people chanting that too, at least at first, but that's just because the WWE went a very long time catering exclusively to the LCD. Like...maybe it's just me, but the only way you weed those people out of the audience is if you just treat it maturely and not give a shit what they think. We're not talking about booking a John Cena angle here. Except, there were times when someone was treated in mature fashion and still got the chants. You mention how to "not give a shit" but if people are crapping all over it, you just move forward with it anyways? Just to send a message? That seems pointless. There's other ways of doing things. One of the best is if you did have a guy who legitimately was and he had the ability to move far. What's wrong with just pushing them? I'm seriously confused as to why it's got to be this big spectacle. Most people who are gay don't want to be spectacles, they just want to be treated like everyone else. Wouldn't treating him the same as everyone else be giving them exactly what they want? Or do they need to be a character? Who are we kidding here?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 14:23:09 GMT -5
So then why not just have the character happen to be gay and not make it the essence of their character? To what point? If it's not the essence of the character, why bring it up? Because sexuality is something that most people make pretty obvious whether they say anything or not. There's no need to hide it or pretend he's not gay, but they don't need to fixate on it either. It can be a natural element of who he is, no stranger than hair color or the shape of his jaw.
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Post by kamero00 on Jul 1, 2013 14:25:28 GMT -5
I thought Ryback was gay? He slept with Pat Patterson and JR, no?
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 1, 2013 14:33:42 GMT -5
It's also something that shouldn't necessarily be hidden and ignored in society. There are tons of gay characters out there. Sometimes being gay is a strong part of their character, sometimes not, but it adds different dimensions. We don't live in a bubble. And again, it all depends. A guy like Fandango I feel could definitely pull it off very well. So then why not just have the character happen to be gay and not make it the essence of their character? Again, to go back to Fandango, being a ballroom dancer is a major part of his character, but it's not the whole thing. It's his mannerisms, his personality, and everything like that. I guess my big reason is, why not? I don't think it would be "the gay gimmick" as I stated before, but it would simply be apart of the character. I feel it can be done, and I guess I think of other gay characters on television and how they've been used to some positive reviews.
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jul 1, 2013 14:36:10 GMT -5
I....really don't know what else to say. Why are gay people always looked at as effeminate or flamboyant? And why must we use those characteristics to play a character? Seems pretty backward to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 14:38:31 GMT -5
Except, there were times when someone was treated in mature fashion and still got the chants. You mention how to "not give a shit" but if people are crapping all over it, you just move forward with it anyways? YES, man. In the event WWE gets some decency and books this with some sense, why the hell not? WWE will never do it because they love that bigot dollar a bit too much... Though to be honest, I think the majority of wrestling fandom is past that point where we'd openly chant homophobic slurs at wrestlers en masse. We'll never actually know until WWE books them like actual human beings so... I've got no business speaking for a community I've got no part in, however...I'm not saying you book all of the gay wrestlers in romance angles. A lot of times, you could just introduce a wrestler's same-sex partner as an aside...someone could allude to it as a one-off. There are countless ways a wrestler could be gay that shouldn't affect much of anything storywise. I just find it kinda ridiculous how with all the romance angles WWE likes to book, they've booked not one involving gay wrestlers. Or they haven't touched storylines involving blatant homophobia...or they've just acted like LGB people don't exist.
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Post by OGJB is Slender on Jul 1, 2013 14:42:00 GMT -5
I just find it kinda ridiculous how with all the romance angles WWE likes to book, they've booked not one involving gay wrestlers. Or they haven't touched storylines involving blatant homophobia...or they've just acted like LGB people don't exist. Honestly, it's smart of them to avoid the subject. It's too big a risk.
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jul 1, 2013 14:43:37 GMT -5
We're at a stalemate...you're just not getting what I'm trying to say. To the benefit of the community and the person himself, the best thing would be to NOT PLAY UP A CHARACTER. That doesn't do anyone any good, especially when people are using Fandango as a base for a "gay" gimmick. Because Fandango seems more gay than say...Wade Barrett. This is the kind of shit that makes you look silly when you're trying to do good, because you're doing more harm.
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Lila
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Post by Lila on Jul 1, 2013 14:48:07 GMT -5
I'd like to add in that overall, it's a pointless idea in the sense that do we have wrestler's based around the fact that they're straight? I'm not talking a gimmick like HBK's or something, but a guy who makes it known that he's straight all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 14:48:34 GMT -5
So then why not just have the character happen to be gay and not make it the essence of their character? Again, to go back to Fandango, being a ballroom dancer is a major part of his character, but it's not the whole thing. It's his mannerisms, his personality, and everything like that. I guess my big reason is, why not? I don't think it would be "the gay gimmick" as I stated before, but it would simply be apart of the character. I feel it can be done, and I guess I think of other gay characters on television and how they've been used to some positive reviews. But why should sexuality be used to define the character? Why have only one gay character? Can you imagine how ridiculous it would be to have a guy whose character is that he's straight? What makes gay people any different?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 14:48:49 GMT -5
I thought Ryback was gay? He slept with Pat Patterson and JR, no? "Feed Me More!!!!!!!!!!" "Sauce it! Sauce it! Bah Gawd, sauce it" Good luck trying to sleep.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 1, 2013 14:50:47 GMT -5
So then why not just have the character happen to be gay and not make it the essence of their character? To what point? If it's not the essence of the character, why bring it up? I agree with this. "Representation" doesn't really mean much to me as someone who watches wrestling, when I watch it. Nor does the idea of "we have to present a social message". It seems like society wants people to care, but at the same time, not care. And a thread like this acts as a microcosm of that; "Make a big deal of him, but at the same time, don't make a big deal of him." If you have someone on the roster who legitimately is, that's one thing (and if he's not very good, you still don't push him. You don't want another Orlando Jordan on your hands). But you don't append it as a persona on to some other guy just for the sake of representation or tokenism, or to say "Look, we're down with social progress too!".
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Chip
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Post by Chip on Jul 1, 2013 14:51:32 GMT -5
So then why not just have the character happen to be gay and not make it the essence of their character? Again, to go back to Fandango, being a ballroom dancer is a major part of his character, but it's not the whole thing. It's his mannerisms, his personality, and everything like that. I don't think making their gay character the overly flamboyant dancer would go over too well. Too stereotypical.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 14:53:59 GMT -5
It shouldn't be THE character, just an element of the character.
A wrestler who happens to be gay, is more progressive than a gay wrestler.
I always said that the wrestler needs to establish him/herself first then reveal that their gay in the most subtle way possible.
But this is the WWE and subtlety isn't in their vocabulary, so this won't happen for quite a while.
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mizerable
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You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Jul 1, 2013 15:03:44 GMT -5
A wrestler who happens to be gay, is more progressive than a gay wrestler. I always said that the wrestler needs to establish him/herself first then reveal that their gay in the most subtle way possible. Easy solution. They always have those events such as B A Star, the Special Olympics or Make a Wish, why not a rally for LGBT rights? Have them show their support, that should be enough to be effective. Not everything needs to be written in blatant permanent marker for it to work. An opportunity for a legit homosexual worker is much more rewarding than one for someone who feigns a character. I don't see how anyone would disagree with that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 15:05:10 GMT -5
Honestly, it's smart of them to avoid the subject. It's too big a risk. I don't think so. How many times do we joke about WWE barely being on the fringes of mainstream relevancy? This is an example of the reason why: WWE exists in it's own weird and sterile universe that's many decades behind the rest of pop-culture. I'd like to add in that overall, it's a pointless idea in the sense that do we have wrestler's based around the fact that they're straight? I'm not talking a gimmick like HBK's or something, but a guy who makes it known that he's straight all the time. Wrestlers are automatically assumed to be straight unless stated otherwise, so technically none of them have to make mention of it at all. And I always thought HBK being a cocky, preening pretty boy was his character. Him being partial to women was incidental. He'd still be one regardless of who he liked.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 1, 2013 15:10:26 GMT -5
A wrestler who happens to be gay, is more progressive than a gay wrestler. I always said that the wrestler needs to establish him/herself first then reveal that their gay in the most subtle way possible. Easy solution. They always have those events such as B A Star, the Special Olympics or Make a Wish, why not a rally for LGBT rights? Have them show their support, that should be enough to be effective. Not everything needs to be written in blatant permanent marker for it to work. An opportunity for a legit homosexual worker is much more rewarding than one for someone who feigns a character. I don't see how anyone would disagree with that. Impatience. It's going to take a whole hell of a lot longer to find a legitimately homosexual worker who has the talent to be a main eventer than it is to append the persona onto someone they already have down in developmental (or already on the main roster) with high-level ring and mic skill. Not taking a side on saying it's right or wrong (aside from that I'm very, very cynical when it comes to trying to push a social agenda like that), but you're going to have a lot of people not willing to wait for that 'ideal' situation, because they want to see the company strike the iron right now when it can have 'maximum' social impact.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 1, 2013 15:13:04 GMT -5
A few things, here.
One, as good as it is to not be stereotypical, there's a downside to being pointedly COUNTER-stereotypical, too. I can actually see the WWE making some super-manly character gay, and then having it be a big thing that he's masculine but also gay. But then you're kind of sending the message, "Hey, being gay is fine, as long as you don't violate gender norms!" There's more to the gay identity than just the sex and the relationships; part of it is that it should also be okay to look and act gay. It's not automatically bad to have a queeny character. Rico's problem wasn't that he minced around, it was that he minced and ALSO was a personal stylist and ALSO was uptight about his appearance and ALSO wore makeup and ALSO acted like a coward.
Two, it is absolutely silly to wait for an openly gay actor to have an openly gay character. I find it totally strange when people say that.
Three, I totally don't understand this point of view, "Why even do it, if it's just going to be there and not a big deal?" Um, because first of all it might do some good. And because second of all: um, why aren't you saying the same thing about the straight wrestlers' straightness?
Four, while I don't have optimism about the WWE specifically, this isn't some minefield. It is really surprisingly easy to do this well. It's obviously on a way different scale, but the indie promotion Chikara just had a storyline with pretty clear gay subtext, and it's on TV all the time, and it's all fine. Just don't make them a complete stereotype, make them competent, and if they're evil, don't make their evil related to their gayness. It's kinda not hard.
All that said? Yeah, the fans would mess it up. It's weird, because by all logic, wrestling SHOULD be gayer. I mean, look at it. I think certain insecure fans know that and would freak out.
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