mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Jul 28, 2013 8:17:58 GMT -5
I always got a kick out of how much Jesse hated Hogan when he was at the announce table. As much love as Heenan gets as a color commentator, Jesse's a good several notches above. With Bobby, you never felt like he legitmately hated anyone and was just joking around to get himself over with non-sequitors and quips. With Jesse, you felt he legitimately hated the faces, but he explained his side so well that you could at least respect his point of view. He's easily the greatest color commentator of all time; doesn't matter who he paired up with. Can't say the same about Heenan, who was a bit of a dud when he wasn't paired with Monsoon. why would anyone respected Jesse Ventura's POV. He was plainly a hypocrite, while the face announcers at least believed in turnabout being fair play
|
|
Ginger Beer Man
Dennis Stamp
Jam Up Guy
The kids can call you HoJu!
Posts: 4,221
|
Post by Ginger Beer Man on Jul 28, 2013 10:30:14 GMT -5
In other news, water's wet
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 30, 2013 3:15:43 GMT -5
As much love as Heenan gets as a color commentator, Jesse's a good several notches above. With Bobby, you never felt like he legitmately hated anyone and was just joking around to get himself over with non-sequitors and quips. With Jesse, you felt he legitimately hated the faces, but he explained his side so well that you could at least respect his point of view. He's easily the greatest color commentator of all time; doesn't matter who he paired up with. Can't say the same about Heenan, who was a bit of a dud when he wasn't paired with Monsoon. why would anyone respected Jesse Ventura's POV. He was plainly a hypocrite, while the face announcers at least believed in turnabout being fair play He was the opposite of a hypocrite. He never wavered from his position. He openly admitted to liking cheating, admired craftiness and never turned on guys he liked, like Randy Savage, just because they turned face. He simply spoke his mind. I can understand not agreeing with his views, but he wasn't a hypocrite. That was more Heenan's shtick. Saying one thing but being exposed a liar the next. That said, the brilliance in Jesse's commentary was that he often pointed out the hypocrisy in the babyfaces themselves, and exposed the flawed logic of Vince and Gorilla, often making them stumble over their stances as a result. In a world of liars and weasel heels, Jesse was just a big arrogant jerk that called it like he saw it. You hated him as a kid, because you loved Hogan et al, but once you got older and understood actual reasoning, you began to see that Jesse was calling out obvious inconsistencies in certain acts that the narrative had glossed over or ignored.
|
|
Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,996
Member is Online
|
Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jul 30, 2013 3:55:21 GMT -5
why would anyone respected Jesse Ventura's POV. He was plainly a hypocrite, while the face announcers at least believed in turnabout being fair play He was the opposite of a hypocrite. He never wavered from his position. He openly admitted to liking cheating, admired craftiness and never turned on guys he liked, like Randy Savage, just because they turned face. He simply spoke his mind. I can understand not agreeing with his views, but he wasn't a hypocrite. That was more Heenan's shtick. Saying one thing but being exposed a liar the next. That said, the brilliance in Jesse's commentary was that he often pointed out the hypocrisy in the babyfaces themselves, and exposed the flawed logic of Vince and Gorilla, often making them stumble over their stances as a result. In a world of liars and weasel heels, Jesse was just a big arrogant jerk that called it like he saw it. You hated him as a kid, because you loved Hogan et al, but once you got older and understood actual reasoning, you began to see that Jesse was calling out obvious inconsistencies in certain acts that the narrative had glossed over or ignored. Exactly. I don't recall matches or anything, but say, The Rockers double teamed someone, Gorilla would be happy and say how great it was, Jesse would say double teaming is fine, and the ref not counting is one thing, but he doesn't want to hear Gorilla complain later when a heel team does the same thing.
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Jul 30, 2013 4:53:35 GMT -5
why would anyone respected Jesse Ventura's POV. He was plainly a hypocrite, while the face announcers at least believed in turnabout being fair play He was the opposite of a hypocrite. He never wavered from his position. He openly admitted to liking cheating, admired craftiness and never turned on guys he liked, like Randy Savage, just because they turned face. He simply spoke his mind. I can understand not agreeing with his views, but he wasn't a hypocrite. That was more Heenan's shtick. Saying one thing but being exposed a liar the next. That said, the brilliance in Jesse's commentary was that he often pointed out the hypocrisy in the babyfaces themselves, and exposed the flawed logic of Vince and Gorilla, often making them stumble over their stances as a result. In a world of liars and weasel heels, Jesse was just a big arrogant jerk that called it like he saw it. You hated him as a kid, because you loved Hogan et al, but once you got older and understood actual reasoning, you began to see that Jesse was calling out obvious inconsistencies in certain acts that the narrative had glossed over or ignored. if he liked cheating then he should have liked it when the faces cheated. Supporting heels when they cheated, but not faces when they responded in kind, makes him a hypocrite
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 30, 2013 5:20:45 GMT -5
He was the opposite of a hypocrite. He never wavered from his position. He openly admitted to liking cheating, admired craftiness and never turned on guys he liked, like Randy Savage, just because they turned face. He simply spoke his mind. I can understand not agreeing with his views, but he wasn't a hypocrite. That was more Heenan's shtick. Saying one thing but being exposed a liar the next. That said, the brilliance in Jesse's commentary was that he often pointed out the hypocrisy in the babyfaces themselves, and exposed the flawed logic of Vince and Gorilla, often making them stumble over their stances as a result. In a world of liars and weasel heels, Jesse was just a big arrogant jerk that called it like he saw it. You hated him as a kid, because you loved Hogan et al, but once you got older and understood actual reasoning, you began to see that Jesse was calling out obvious inconsistencies in certain acts that the narrative had glossed over or ignored. if he liked cheating then he should have liked it when the faces cheated. Supporting heels when they cheated, but not faces when they responded in kind, makes him a hypocrite No, he hated the fact that the faces were celebrated for cheating, while the heels were chastised. His issues were more with Vince or Gorilla's slanted and contrived view of what was right and wrong. Jesse often would rub it in when heels cheated and Vince or Gorilla got mad, suggesting that they would be happy if the faces were doing it. (and they were). His whole argument wasn't so much pro-heel as anti-propaganda. He didn't like the villainization of only one subset of wrestler. In fact, if everyone openly cheated with no one making excuses, Jesse would be in heaven. His personal philosophy after all was 'Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat.' He just despised the goody-two shoes hypocrisy of the face commentators.
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Jul 30, 2013 5:45:50 GMT -5
if he liked cheating then he should have liked it when the faces cheated. Supporting heels when they cheated, but not faces when they responded in kind, makes him a hypocrite No, he hated the fact that the faces were celebrated for cheating, while the heels were chastised. His issues were more with Vince or Gorilla's slanted and contrived view of what was right and wrong. Jesse often would rub it in when heels cheated and Vince or Gorilla got mad, suggesting that they would be happy if the faces were doing it. (and they were). His whole argument wasn't so much pro-heel as anti-propaganda. He didn't like the villainization of only one subset of wrestler. In fact, if everyone openly cheated with no one making excuses, Jesse would be in heaven. His personal philosophy after all was 'Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat.' He just despised the goody-two shoes hypocrisy of the face commentators. Jesse showed it was just personal animosity in the Mega Powers vs Mega Bucks feud when he had to be forced to finish the three count that got the Mega Powers the win. And anyway Vince and Gorilla weren't slanted. They were happy when people who consistently cheated got paid back in kind.
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 30, 2013 6:02:55 GMT -5
No, he hated the fact that the faces were celebrated for cheating, while the heels were chastised. His issues were more with Vince or Gorilla's slanted and contrived view of what was right and wrong. Jesse often would rub it in when heels cheated and Vince or Gorilla got mad, suggesting that they would be happy if the faces were doing it. (and they were). His whole argument wasn't so much pro-heel as anti-propaganda. He didn't like the villainization of only one subset of wrestler. In fact, if everyone openly cheated with no one making excuses, Jesse would be in heaven. His personal philosophy after all was 'Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat.' He just despised the goody-two shoes hypocrisy of the face commentators. Jesse showed it was just personal animosity in the Mega Powers vs Mega Bucks feud when he had to be forced to finish the three count that got the Mega Powers the win. And anyway Vince and Gorilla weren't slanted. They were happy when people who consistently cheated got paid back in kind. I loved that. Jesse counted to two, and then hesitated. He hated Hogan that much. Ironic that his fave wrestler Macho forced him to do the count officially. That said, I never said Jesse was right in his views. Just that his character was pretty consistent in them and that he played it as if he believed everything he was saying. Heenan, my other fave, however, was a deliberate liar and weasel. He'd flip flop all over the place. I liked the two heel dichotomies. As for the latter point. Come on. I know that's how you WANT it to be, (and still do) but it really wasn't. Jesse said in an interview once that it started as a rib on his part to pull back the curtain on the hypocrisy of babyfaces to piss Vince off, but later, both Vince & Gorilla loved doing it right back in favor of faces. The whole thing was a giant wink and they all loved playing their part. But therein the narrative was never affected. The people who paid attention knew, of course, but it was all in fun.
|
|
Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
|
Post by Jiren on Jul 30, 2013 6:37:28 GMT -5
I remember Wrestlemania VI, During a match after the Dusty/Sapphire vs Macho King/Sherri some double teaming went on by heels and Gorilla was "This isn't fair...".
Jessie threw a fit at Monsoon and how he was praising Dusty/Sapphire & Elizabeth earlier on
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Jul 30, 2013 6:52:05 GMT -5
Jesse showed it was just personal animosity in the Mega Powers vs Mega Bucks feud when he had to be forced to finish the three count that got the Mega Powers the win. And anyway Vince and Gorilla weren't slanted. They were happy when people who consistently cheated got paid back in kind. I loved that. Jesse counted to two, and then hesitated. He hated Hogan that much. Ironic that his fave wrestler Macho forced him to do the count officially. That said, I never said Jesse was right in his views. Just that his character was pretty consistent in them and that he played it as if he believed everything he was saying. Heenan, my other fave, however, was a deliberate liar and weasel. He'd flip flop all over the place. I liked the two heel dichotomies. As for the latter point. Come on. I know that's how you WANT it to be, (and still do) but it really wasn't. Jesse said in an interview once that it started as a rib on his part to pull back the curtain on the hypocrisy of babyfaces to piss Vince off, but later, both Vince & Gorilla loved doing it right back in favor of faces. The whole thing was a giant wink and they all loved playing their part. But therein the narrative was never affected. The people who paid attention knew, of course, but it was all in fun. well if you treat it as more than a joke, which considering it was a consistent part of their characters and their jobs as serious announcers I think you need to, then I'm pretty sure it comes off as the face announcers just believe in payback. I mean I didn't get to see that much WWF TV in the mid to late 80s, but how often did the faces cheat first in a match the first time they wrestled a heel? I don't think it would have been very often
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 30, 2013 7:07:54 GMT -5
I loved that. Jesse counted to two, and then hesitated. He hated Hogan that much. Ironic that his fave wrestler Macho forced him to do the count officially. That said, I never said Jesse was right in his views. Just that his character was pretty consistent in them and that he played it as if he believed everything he was saying. Heenan, my other fave, however, was a deliberate liar and weasel. He'd flip flop all over the place. I liked the two heel dichotomies. As for the latter point. Come on. I know that's how you WANT it to be, (and still do) but it really wasn't. Jesse said in an interview once that it started as a rib on his part to pull back the curtain on the hypocrisy of babyfaces to piss Vince off, but later, both Vince & Gorilla loved doing it right back in favor of faces. The whole thing was a giant wink and they all loved playing their part. But therein the narrative was never affected. The people who paid attention knew, of course, but it was all in fun. well if you treat it as more than a joke, which considering it was a consistent part of their characters and their jobs as serious announcers I think you need to, then I'm pretty sure it comes off as the face announcers just believe in payback. I mean I didn't get to see that much WWF TV in the mid to late 80s, but how often did the faces cheat first in a match the first time they wrestled a heel? I don't think it would have been very often Jesse's main complaints in those days were faces uses closed fists, The Rockers double-teaming for more than the allotted 5 seconds, and Hogan using back-rakes and eye gouges. Stuff like that. Hardly offensive things, but he'd call out how they were playing dirty, and Vince would just flat out deny it. That's where the hypocrisy came from. Not so much the faces themselves, but with the announcers justifying it in cases where it wasn't merited or needed.
|
|
thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,663
|
Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 30, 2013 7:11:58 GMT -5
Jesse showed it was just personal animosity in the Mega Powers vs Mega Bucks feud when he had to be forced to finish the three count that got the Mega Powers the win. And anyway Vince and Gorilla weren't slanted. They were happy when people who consistently cheated got paid back in kind. I loved that. Jesse counted to two, and then hesitated. He hated Hogan that much. Ironic that his fave wrestler Macho forced him to do the count officially. That said, I never said Jesse was right in his views. Just that his character was pretty consistent in them and that he played it as if he believed everything he was saying. Heenan, my other fave, however, was a deliberate liar and weasel. He'd flip flop all over the place. I liked the two heel dichotomies. As for the latter point. Come on. I know that's how you WANT it to be, (and still do) but it really wasn't. Jesse said in an interview once that it started as a rib on his part to pull back the curtain on the hypocrisy of babyfaces to piss Vince off, but later, both Vince & Gorilla loved doing it right back in favor of faces. The whole thing was a giant wink and they all loved playing their part. But therein the narrative was never affected. The people who paid attention knew, of course, but it was all in fun. I always thought that Gorilla was much more reasonable than McMahon. He would often concede points to Jesse when it came to faces cheating and if he did try to make an excuse, it was always much more reasonable, like "Steamboats chops are to the throat Gorilla! That's illegal!" "Well Jess, when someone does what Savage did, takes away your livelihood for six months and tries to end your career, you do whatever you can to get even in my book" and Jesse would often not respond. They actually agreed quite a bit. Vince's excuses were always so bad and poorly thought out, that'd I'd find myself wishing Gorilla was there to make a better argument. The most notable example I always think about is Vince's explanation of Joey Marella's phantom 3 count at Wrestlemania 3. "But my question Jesse, was he placing his hand on the mat to simply brace himself while he attempted to stand back up or was he counting a third count for Andre the Giant?" ".....it must've taken you all year to think that one up". It was great. While I'm sure Gorilla would've said something like "it looked like the Hulkster had already kicked out by 3 anyways. And that's part of professional wrestling. Sometimes you get a bad break. And if you do, you ask the Hulkster for a rematch. You don't get involved with a couple if lowlives like The Million Dollar Man and Virgil"
|
|
thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,663
|
Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 30, 2013 7:21:43 GMT -5
I'll add that my favorite example of hypocrisy by both sides about Hogan was in the 1989 Royal Rumble when Gorilla and Jesse are arguing about Hogan's right to eliminate the Big Bossman after having been eliminated and Gorilla says "Well those two guys were fresh. Hulk had already been out there for a half hour!" "Aw he has not! He's only been out there about 5 minutes!!" He was actually in for about 12.
And then Jesse has a long explanation about why Hogan was a cheater and shouldn't have done what he did (which he was right) and Gorilla just goes "Uh huh. So what?" "SO WHAT!?" replies Jesse. I guess that's the big difference between McMahon and Gorilla. Vince would try to argue that what the faces doing was right because their actions are morally right, which made him sound like a fool. Gorilla would argue that the faces were right because of who was on the receiving end of those actions. If you raked Tito Santana's eyes, a guy who rarely broke rules and was a stand up guy outside the ring, it was wrong. If you raked Ted Dibiase's eyes, a man who constantly cheated and messed with peoples lives for his own amusement, then he supported you.
|
|
|
Post by Porky's Butthole on Jul 30, 2013 8:53:19 GMT -5
There's a SNME video on youtube where after a backstage interview, Jesse says about Mean Gene "I couldn't tell if he was talking into a microphone or a vibrator." www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6ACeJUcYUI5:50
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jul 30, 2013 12:53:51 GMT -5
Sean and Crusher: excellent points about the differences between Jesse and Vince and Jesse and Gorilla. BabyFace Vince was the worst announcer because he cold never back up why the faces were in the right (even when they were breaking he rules) in the way Gorilla (and later on, JR) could.
|
|
tms
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,901
|
Post by tms on Jul 30, 2013 22:58:16 GMT -5
Sean and Crusher: excellent points about the differences between Jesse and Vince and Jesse and Gorilla. BabyFace Vince was the worst announcer because he cold never back up why the faces were in the right (even when they were breaking he rules) in the way Gorilla (and later on, JR) could. Reading this post makes me miss Jesse even more. His style was completely unique; it combined (almost to the point of exaggeration) pinpoint diction, a booming delivery, and a heel character with enough conviction to never waver from his stances. When he was presented with someone who was terrible (like face Vince commentator was), he could make them look like the biggest idiot in the world and still make it entertaining and seem like "part of the show". One of my favorite Jesse/Vince moments was during a match with the Jumping Bomb Angels, the only difference in the two women's attires were the bottoms of their costumes; one was pink and the other was red. Jesse asked Vince what their names were, should he decide to ask one of them on a date. Vince (clearly caught off-guard) didn't know, so he proposed they call the one in pink "pink" and the one in red "red" (and continued to do just that until he gathered their names). Jesse just responded with "Oh, that's real clever." Another moment that still cracks me up came from when Brother Love and Morton Downey Jr were in a Piper's Pit segment from (IIRC) Wrestlemania V. Brother Love wears a kilt to the segment in the ring and Piper (eventually; it was an otherwise lousy segment) removed Brother Love's kilt, proving that Love wasn't really Scottish since he was wearing red underpants underneath. As Love wigged out in the ring in his underpants before running off, a bewildered Monsoon said, "take a look at that, Jess!" A few beats later, Jesse deadpans, "I'd rather not, Gorilla." It's so much funnier than it sounds; it's legitimately one of, if not the, most amusing deliveries I've ever heard. I'd listen to anything Monsoon and Ventura provide commentary for. They could make anything entertaining; even the ridiculous and drawn-out posedown between Warrior and Rude was filled with valid points from both sides, which is like making paint dry exciting.
|
|
|
Post by Hassan bin Sober on Jul 31, 2013 10:02:05 GMT -5
I think the best thing is he just called it like someone sitting at home. THIS He didn't come across like a salesman but rather a cynical fan. I love it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 10:32:14 GMT -5
I loved that. Jesse counted to two, and then hesitated. He hated Hogan that much. Ironic that his fave wrestler Macho forced him to do the count officially. That said, I never said Jesse was right in his views. Just that his character was pretty consistent in them and that he played it as if he believed everything he was saying. Heenan, my other fave, however, was a deliberate liar and weasel. He'd flip flop all over the place. I liked the two heel dichotomies. As for the latter point. Come on. I know that's how you WANT it to be, (and still do) but it really wasn't. Jesse said in an interview once that it started as a rib on his part to pull back the curtain on the hypocrisy of babyfaces to piss Vince off, but later, both Vince & Gorilla loved doing it right back in favor of faces. The whole thing was a giant wink and they all loved playing their part. But therein the narrative was never affected. The people who paid attention knew, of course, but it was all in fun. I always thought that Gorilla was much more reasonable than McMahon. He would often concede points to Jesse when it came to faces cheating and if he did try to make an excuse, it was always much more reasonable, like "Steamboats chops are to the throat Gorilla! That's illegal!" "Well Jess, when someone does what Savage did, takes away your livelihood for six months and tries to end your career, you do whatever you can to get even in my book" and Jesse would often not respond. They actually agreed quite a bit. Vince's excuses were always so bad and poorly thought out, that'd I'd find myself wishing Gorilla was there to make a better argument. The most notable example I always think about is Vince's explanation of Joey Marella's phantom 3 count at Wrestlemania 3. "But my question Jesse, was he placing his hand on the mat to simply brace himself while he attempted to stand back up or was he counting a third count for Andre the Giant?" ".....it must've taken you all year to think that one up". It was great. While I'm sure Gorilla would've said something like "it looked like the Hulkster had already kicked out by 3 anyways. And that's part of professional wrestling. Sometimes you get a bad break. And if you do, you ask the Hulkster for a rematch. You don't get involved with a couple if lowlives like The Million Dollar Man and Virgil" Part of the thing with Gorilla and Jesse "getting along more", I think, was that like Jesse, Gorilla had been a wrestler too. So they always kinda had a common meeting of minds regarding what was fair and what was not, because they'd both been in there. If Gorilla made a point that Jesse couldn't argue, it was probably Jesse understanding/accepting where Gorilla's mindset was coming from. That said, Jesse might fight Gorilla a bit more on the other hand because at times he'd feel like Gorilla should "know better" than to take a opposing position. Vince, OTOH, was just a suited businessman shill who was "towing" the company line and saying bad guys were bad and good guys were good.
|
|