Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
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Post by Sephiroth on Sept 18, 2013 21:52:27 GMT -5
As much as anything else, the loss of the likes of Hogan and Mickie free's up money that could be better used elsewhere
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Glitch
King Koopa
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Post by Glitch on Sept 18, 2013 22:38:02 GMT -5
In all honesty, I think this will be a huge improvement. Seeing how they are pretty much getting rid of a lot of "bought recognition"(including Devon and possibly Anderson), they are forced to build their own guys up or bring new ones to build up.
This will quite possibly lead to tna's next leap forward.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Sept 18, 2013 22:58:51 GMT -5
If it was just those cases, it'd be one thing- but there are still the issues.
It's not a classic problem- before, TNA was able to make homegrown talent and give them fair chances. But somewhere in the last few years, the fans decided not to give TNA any chances. It wasn't ALWAYS "F*** ANY NON-ROH/SHIMMER TALENT", but it has become that.
And it's not "just" Wes Brisco and Garett Bischoff suck, and that's why no one wants them. It's about how, where WWE can bring in unknown talent and the fans will say "Okay, I'll give this guy a chance and see what he has", literally EVERY SINGLE TNA new talent who's come in in the last few years came in with the fans predisposed to hate them. If it's guys like Wes Brisco or Garett Bischoff, maybe they suck. Maybe you can even say guys like Gunner and Crimson weren't ready for big pushes. However, even top homegrown names they have- guys mentioned now as future homegrown names to build around like Magnus, or guys like Robbie E. who grew to be capable midcarders, came into the company with the fans already deciding they weren't going to give them a chance. Same with the Knockouts- even when women like Tessmacher and Taryn Terrell came to them from WWE, but managed to improve in TNA and grow into capable performers, the fans wouldn't give them an immediate chance.
THIS is the bigger problem- and it's not just TNA's talent relations, not all the fans' fault, but it needs to be fixed on both sides. The one reason that TNA is failing in talent vs. the WWE is that, if the WWE brings in a unknown talent/someone trained in-house, the fans will usually approach it as "...we'll give them a chance.", but for TNA fans with unknown talent/in-house trainees, it's "MAKE ME love you. I DARE YOU."
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Post by ________ has left the building on Sept 19, 2013 1:29:16 GMT -5
If it was just those cases, it'd be one thing- but there are still the issues. It's not a classic problem- before, TNA was able to make homegrown talent and give them fair chances. But somewhere in the last few years, the fans decided not to give TNA any chances. It wasn't ALWAYS "F*** ANY NON-ROH/SHIMMER TALENT", but it has become that. And it's not "just" Wes Brisco and Garett Bischoff suck, and that's why no one wants them. It's about how, where WWE can bring in unknown talent and the fans will say "Okay, I'll give this guy a chance and see what he has", literally EVERY SINGLE TNA new talent who's come in in the last few years came in with the fans predisposed to hate them. If it's guys like Wes Brisco or Garett Bischoff, maybe they suck. Maybe you can even say guys like Gunner and Crimson weren't ready for big pushes. However, even top homegrown names they have- guys mentioned now as future homegrown names to build around like Magnus, or guys like Robbie E. who grew to be capable midcarders, came into the company with the fans already deciding they weren't going to give them a chance. Same with the Knockouts- even when women like Tessmacher and Taryn Terrell came to them from WWE, but managed to improve in TNA and grow into capable performers, the fans wouldn't give them an immediate chance. THIS is the bigger problem- and it's not just TNA's talent relations, not all the fans' fault, but it needs to be fixed on both sides. The one reason that TNA is failing in talent vs. the WWE is that, if the WWE brings in a unknown talent/someone trained in-house, the fans will usually approach it as "...we'll give them a chance.", but for TNA fans with unknown talent/in-house trainees, it's "MAKE ME love you. I DARE YOU." People do not accept every unknown wrestler who debut in WWE right off the bat. A large number of people didn't like Roman Reigns and wanted Kassius Ohno in the Shield instead. Fast forward a year later, he's very popular on this board. What about people thinking Kaitlyn sucked and shouldn't replaced Isis the Amazon in NXT season 3? After a while, folks' views on her turned around. I remember when Titus O'Neil and Darren Young were always the top 2 on the future endeavored list and look where they are at now. So the idea that people are pro-WWE and anti-TNA is flawed. There's no denying that some quickly dismiss a wrestler after initial showings. I have done it but it wasn't because of what promotion they wrestle for. It's because that person didn't impress me. Crimson didn't impress me when he first joined TNA. I was familiar with his work as No Mercy Tommy Mercer in AIW and SAW. He looked good against smaller wrestlers but in TNA, he looked lost in the ring fighting people the same size and bigger. His character was non-existent. After TNA realized the Crimson experiment wasn't working, they stopped his push. People didn't care he was undefeated, jacked, and tatted. Brooke Tessmacher and Taryn Terrell came from WWE being mediocre wrestlers and wrestled the same way initially. But they worked hard to improved and people noticed it & responded positively to that. The same for Magnus. It's up to the promotion and the wrestlers to make people care about them. Fans aren't going to fall in love with someone right off the bat. the hottest person in wrestling right now, Daniel Bryan, wasn't accept by the crowd when he first debuted. It took years of hard work for people to recognize his talent. Fans are going to act the same way not matter the size or name of the promotion they support and watch. Telling them they are at fault for not giving Garett Bischoff a chance don't mean a thing if he doesn't give them a reason to do it.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Sept 19, 2013 2:13:37 GMT -5
If it was just those cases, it'd be one thing- but there are still the issues. It's not a classic problem- before, TNA was able to make homegrown talent and give them fair chances. But somewhere in the last few years, the fans decided not to give TNA any chances. It wasn't ALWAYS "F*** ANY NON-ROH/SHIMMER TALENT", but it has become that. And it's not "just" Wes Brisco and Garett Bischoff suck, and that's why no one wants them. It's about how, where WWE can bring in unknown talent and the fans will say "Okay, I'll give this guy a chance and see what he has", literally EVERY SINGLE TNA new talent who's come in in the last few years came in with the fans predisposed to hate them. If it's guys like Wes Brisco or Garett Bischoff, maybe they suck. Maybe you can even say guys like Gunner and Crimson weren't ready for big pushes. However, even top homegrown names they have- guys mentioned now as future homegrown names to build around like Magnus, or guys like Robbie E. who grew to be capable midcarders, came into the company with the fans already deciding they weren't going to give them a chance. Same with the Knockouts- even when women like Tessmacher and Taryn Terrell came to them from WWE, but managed to improve in TNA and grow into capable performers, the fans wouldn't give them an immediate chance. THIS is the bigger problem- and it's not just TNA's talent relations, not all the fans' fault, but it needs to be fixed on both sides. The one reason that TNA is failing in talent vs. the WWE is that, if the WWE brings in a unknown talent/someone trained in-house, the fans will usually approach it as "...we'll give them a chance.", but for TNA fans with unknown talent/in-house trainees, it's "MAKE ME love you. I DARE YOU." It is up to the promotion and the wrestler to get people to care about them. Did you know that ECW darling Tommy Dreamer was not in fact beloved for his first couple of years there and was quite hated by the fans despite being a face? Or that it took a while for Rob Van Dam to actually become the whole f***ing show?
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Rave
El Dandy
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Post by Rave on Sept 19, 2013 3:06:18 GMT -5
If it was just those cases, it'd be one thing- but there are still the issues. It's not a classic problem- before, TNA was able to make homegrown talent and give them fair chances. But somewhere in the last few years, the fans decided not to give TNA any chances. It wasn't ALWAYS "F*** ANY NON-ROH/SHIMMER TALENT", but it has become that. And it's not "just" Wes Brisco and Garett Bischoff suck, and that's why no one wants them. It's about how, where WWE can bring in unknown talent and the fans will say "Okay, I'll give this guy a chance and see what he has", literally EVERY SINGLE TNA new talent who's come in in the last few years came in with the fans predisposed to hate them. If it's guys like Wes Brisco or Garett Bischoff, maybe they suck. Maybe you can even say guys like Gunner and Crimson weren't ready for big pushes. However, even top homegrown names they have- guys mentioned now as future homegrown names to build around like Magnus, or guys like Robbie E. who grew to be capable midcarders, came into the company with the fans already deciding they weren't going to give them a chance. Same with the Knockouts- even when women like Tessmacher and Taryn Terrell came to them from WWE, but managed to improve in TNA and grow into capable performers, the fans wouldn't give them an immediate chance. THIS is the bigger problem- and it's not just TNA's talent relations, not all the fans' fault, but it needs to be fixed on both sides. The one reason that TNA is failing in talent vs. the WWE is that, if the WWE brings in a unknown talent/someone trained in-house, the fans will usually approach it as "...we'll give them a chance.", but for TNA fans with unknown talent/in-house trainees, it's "MAKE ME love you. I DARE YOU." Flec, there's a third party who needs to step up and shoulder some of the blame for it, and that's TNA's writers. There are guys who can get over on ringwork alone, but most of the time the fans need a reason to care and to give people chances. Magnus and Robbie E. came in with horrible gimmicks, the latter a blatant crossover attempt that TNA screwed up. Gunner got tarred with the 'intense' brush. Crimson was overpushed with nothing to show for it. Garett was double whammied by both overpush and nepotism. Brisco's just...there. How could Tessmacher and Taryn be given immediate chances? They initially weren't in-ring talent. One was Bischoff's secretary, the other a referee who was barely crash-coursed there. The former's storyline regarding learning to wrestle was aborted (and didn't make any sense to begin with, why go to the worst Knockout on the roster for that?), and the latter didn't have a great track record to begin with. Seriously, the poop in the pool match. No one could've predicted that they'd eventually become worthwhile, especially given TNA's habit of suddenly changing things and screwing things up. If TNA's not providing people with reasons to care via good gimmicks and storylines that work and aren't terrible or suddenly dropped for whatever shiny new toy they've just acquired, why should we care? And I can kill your argument regarding WWE fans giving people chances with two words: Rocky Maivia.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Reflecto on Sept 19, 2013 4:34:12 GMT -5
This, I can actually buy as the real issue. The booking for TNA's just never been there- and it is hard to give TNA homegrowns any chances beforehand. The other real issue is OVW being poorly used by the company- if it was being used better, maybe they could store wrestlers in development until they're ready.
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Post by evilone on Sept 19, 2013 11:52:39 GMT -5
TNA cannot build big stars like WWE simply because they don't have tools for it. Fish will only grow as big as it's aquarium. So comparing how WWE builds starts to TNA is not a valid argument. Every wrestler in TNA will be bigger star in WWE no matter what and then comes your criticism how TNA missed opportunity, etc.
On the other side you have people throwing names who to sign, well there is always two sides to a story. No matter how good is the wrestler on TV, in ring and in front of audience he/she has to have that gift for backstage relationship as well. Being surrounded by does who know it all hurts a lot like Young Bucks for example.
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Post by JTG Fan on Sept 19, 2013 15:55:26 GMT -5
For what it's worth they're trying to push Magnus as the guy, and he has all of the physical tools, the only question is if he can get the fans behind him, not from what I've seen so far, but the jury is still out on that one. I'm a big Magnus fan and I think he can get the fans behind him, but the burden is on TNA to give the fans a reason to cheer for him beyond "well, he is fighting heels..."
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Sept 19, 2013 19:54:57 GMT -5
For what it's worth they're trying to push Magnus as the guy, and he has all of the physical tools, the only question is if he can get the fans behind him, not from what I've seen so far, but the jury is still out on that one. I'm a big Magnus fan and I think he can get the fans behind him, but the burden is on TNA to give the fans a reason to cheer for him beyond "well, he is fighting heels..." And you'd think they'd had a great opportunity last week, but they went with AJ instead. AJ's not a bad choice, I'm just saying.
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Rave
El Dandy
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Post by Rave on Sept 19, 2013 20:37:40 GMT -5
TNA cannot build big stars like WWE simply because they don't have tools for it. Fish will only grow as big as it's aquarium. They do have tools. They have a nationally televised TV show. They have PPV. They have Hogan and other imports who, on their own, haven't done a damn thing to improve the shows and the ratings. Why can't these things be used to help build new stars for when the imports inevitably retire/leave, instead of continuing the vicious cycle of bringing in more imports who'll just collect paychecks and not care? Building new stars'll help make the pond bigger, and in turn will help wrestling as a whole. Nobody was doing that. The closest we came to that was the argument that WWE fans react differently to newcomers than TNA fans do, which was pretty much diffused. On the contrary, TNA homegrowns such as Kazarian and Monty Brown did not do very well in WWE. While the unwritten rule of handshakes and introductions should be respected, I find it awfully funny that the guy who kvetched about the Bucks was Booker T, who didn't have a good backstage reputation himself while he was in TNA.
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 20, 2013 0:59:38 GMT -5
Kazarian quit before he could accomplish anything
Meanwhile Marcus Cor Von had wwe behind him. But life happened and his life became the bernie mac show.
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Rave
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Post by Rave on Sept 20, 2013 5:11:19 GMT -5
Kazarian quit before he could accomplish anything Meanwhile Marcus Cor Von had wwe behind him. But life happened and his life became the bernie mac show. Since the argument was that TNA wrestlers will be bigger stars in WWE no matter what, it doesn't matter what happened to make it so they didn't make it, just that they didn't make it. Hell, if you count Low Ki as a TNA wrestler, he's a prime example of one not making it.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Sept 20, 2013 8:38:34 GMT -5
Kazarian quit before he could accomplish anything Meanwhile Marcus Cor Von had wwe behind him. But life happened and his life became the bernie mac show. Since the argument was that TNA wrestlers will be bigger stars in WWE no matter what, it doesn't matter what happened to make it so they didn't make it, just that they didn't make it. Hell, if you count Low Ki as a TNA wrestler, he's a prime example of one not making it. Much as people are slamming TNA's writing in his topic as a big part of people like Crimson and Gunner are flopping, we can afford a big part of that to WWE's booking of the Kaval "character" as to why Low Ki flopped.
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 20, 2013 13:29:26 GMT -5
How though? Should he have been pushed hard right out the gate? He was getting the typical wwe debut kind of run. He didn't like jobbing all the time, and the travelling so he quit.
You always have to talk about the circumstances surrounding why guys failed. Kazarian and Low Ki weren't in wwe long enough to be considered flops. Marcus Cor Von was getting pushed before he stopped.
A real flop was chris harris. Less time than kaval, but just a horrible 2 weeks and nobody liked it
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 20, 2013 13:52:38 GMT -5
...blessing in disguise (assuming it's true, of course). One person may say with Hogan and Mickie and all these other people leaving that it's the "death of TNA." But what it it's more a chance at a rebirth - to change direction and focus on being an alternative to WWE, rather than trying to emulate them. Let Hogan go, let Mickie go, then build up the male and female rosters not with big or semi-big names that just got their walking papers, but rather independent talent that the WWE didn't capitalize on. Forget trying to acquire the next Jeff Hardy or Christian Cage; why not try to make the next Robert Roode or AJ Styles? Because Dixie Carter has neither the patience or knowledge of how to do it, or how to hire the right people to do it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 14:58:52 GMT -5
Maybe TNA needs to downsize a little bit. Going on the road and losing money shows that they were trying to grow too much too quickly. However, if they downsize too much and the ratings drop off, Spike TV might not see them as worth carrying, and that TV contract is the only thing keeping them relevant right now.
They need a visionary, someone to take the reigns of the company and point them in a very specific direction. They dont have that right now, so the vision comes down to spending money on wrestlers and backstage personnel that WWE doesn't want or that don't want to be in WWE. Now that they seem like they're cutting back in that regard, what exactly will they do? Heel Dixie Carter isn't a great start.
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Rave
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Post by Rave on Sept 20, 2013 20:27:52 GMT -5
How though? Should he have been pushed hard right out the gate? He was getting the typical wwe debut kind of run. He didn't like jobbing all the time, and the travelling so he quit. According to Low Ki himself during an interview conducted on Dave Lagana's I Want Wrestling podcast shortly afterward, he didn't quit, he was fired and either was asked to say that he quit or lied to cause less fuss.
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