chrom
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Post by chrom on Sept 26, 2015 16:28:33 GMT -5
I hope Goto doesn't lose tomorrow.
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Post by Raskovnik on Sept 26, 2015 16:36:14 GMT -5
He absolutely needs it but I have this feeling he won't win. Nakamura will probably win. If that is the route they feel the must go then at the very least I hope we can get Nakamura vs Styles at WK10.
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chrom
Backup Wench
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Post by chrom on Sept 26, 2015 17:00:34 GMT -5
Nakamura does not need to win the belt for a 5th time, even though I'm dreading that he's going to tomorrow. He needs to spend time away from it. Yeah he's elevated the belt but its time for others to do the same. Go for the tag belts or something with Ishii. Lethal's been talking smack about him since they teamed up at Field of Honor, why not go to ROH for a while and Boma Ye his face in?
Goto needs the win more, to shake off his choker label and I'd love to see him and Shibata face one another at WK10 for it. As much as I love Nakamura he does not need the IC belt at this point.
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Post by Raskovnik on Sept 26, 2015 17:25:56 GMT -5
That's what I was getting at though my wording was poor, haha. I've posted before about how ardent a Goto fan I am.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Sept 27, 2015 7:26:55 GMT -5
That's what I was getting at though my wording was poor, haha. I've posted before about how ardent a Goto fan I am. Well as I dreaded, they reverted back to the status quo with The IC Belt
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PL23
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Post by PL23 on Sept 27, 2015 7:37:07 GMT -5
Boring. Same old shit yet again from Jado & Gedo.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Sept 27, 2015 8:46:13 GMT -5
Boring. Same old shit yet again from Jado & Gedo. New Japan take risks only when they have no choice. So status quo until one or more of the regular main eventers can't go anymore. Which may be soon since Nakamura and Tanahashi are dealing with some nasty injuries and been so for months now.
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Post by berlynwright on Sept 27, 2015 9:23:30 GMT -5
Tanahashi v Okada, Nakamura v Ibushi again at WK for double torch-passing?
That leaves Styles out, why don't throw him with Naito and we render WK IX useless?
Only reason i'm tuning to NJ is cause they guarantee great matches. Some of the booking they've done to Goto, Shibata and KUSHIDA have been terrible. Don't even get me started on the Jr.Tag division.
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Post by Raskovnik on Sept 27, 2015 11:57:16 GMT -5
I'm not even so angry as I am disappointed. The same old is reaching critic levels now. Reminder that the last non-Styles, non-Okada, non-Tanahashi heavyweight champion was dang Kojima five years ago. The only time the IC title has ever mattered is while Nakamura holds it and here we are in Reign #5. Goto is as good as done in New Japan. The matches are still kick ass but only to a certain extent, as the results are never really in doubt so it's harder to get invested. Goto vs Nakamura was as invested as I could be in a story they were running if only because of the dire implications it had for Goto and the worst has come to pass.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 12:53:37 GMT -5
Reminder that the last non-Styles, non-Okada, non-Tanahashi heavyweight champion was dang Kojima five years ago. I've seen quite a few people bring this up, but does it really matter? With the IC title main eventing a bunch of of shows, the occasional NEVER title match main event and tournaments, NJPW actually has pretty decent variety in terms of main events. I think some people get way too hung up on who is carrying around which title. Would it make an ounce of difference if Nakamura and Goto were feuding over the heavyweight title instead of the IC title?
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Post by Raskovnik on Sept 27, 2015 13:17:14 GMT -5
Reminder that the last non-Styles, non-Okada, non-Tanahashi heavyweight champion was dang Kojima five years ago. I've seen quite a few people bring this up, but does it really matter? With the IC title main eventing a bunch of of shows, the occasional NEVER title match main event and tournaments, NJPW actually has pretty decent variety in terms of main events. I think some people get way too hung up on who is carrying around which title. Would it make an ounce of difference if Nakamura and Goto were feuding over the heavyweight title instead of the IC title? It's not the specific title. It's the thought process and the booking. All the drama of a title defense is gone because they only want it on the big three. They've made it a point to show that no one else can hang at their level, not when it really counts, and now everything feels inconsequential. That's what I'm bothered by. It'd be just as bullshit if Goto was just keeping the heavyweight title warm for Nakamura in between his fourth and fifth reigns in this hypothetical scenario. Where do we go from here? What did that mean for everyone involved? What story does that tell? What are we as fans supposed to take away from it? That's the issue, especially when it comes to Goto/Nakamura/the IC title scene. The heavyweight title does have a different story going on but man does it drag. The way everything has been tied up with the "real" overarching story of Tana and Okada all these years means those Styles runs feel like weird interludes more than anything else, and we're back to our regularly scheduled programming when Okada or Tana are in the driver's seat. Nothing else matters or has mattered outside of them until after WK10. Where they go from there, as that seems where Okada is going to be crowned as the new Ace, is going to be the real make or break. There is a ton they could do that would be fun and interesting, but they seem dead set against trying anything new. But maybe that will change. It's going to have to regardless with how banged up Tana and Nakamura are. So the real issue isn't simply who's holding the titles. It's the storytelling and the booking that makes it outright hard to really care. Once you understand their booking philosophy there's no drama in it anymore because there are no surprises. Enjoyable matches, to be sure, but I'm also big on the stories and excitement wrestling at its best should provide and there's just none of that in it for me right now in New Japan. Of course I'm still going to watch and follow the product but it's disheartening nonetheless.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 13:56:34 GMT -5
I've seen quite a few people bring this up, but does it really matter? With the IC title main eventing a bunch of of shows, the occasional NEVER title match main event and tournaments, NJPW actually has pretty decent variety in terms of main events. I think some people get way too hung up on who is carrying around which title. Would it make an ounce of difference if Nakamura and Goto were feuding over the heavyweight title instead of the IC title? It's not the specific title. It's the thought process and the booking. All the drama of a title defense is gone because they only want it on the big three. They've made it a point to show that no one else can hang at their level, not when it really counts, and now everything feels inconsequential. That's what I'm bothered by. It'd be just as bullshit if Goto was just keeping the heavyweight title warm for Nakamura in between his fourth and fifth reigns in this hypothetical scenario. Where do we go from here? What did that mean for everyone involved? What story does that tell? What are we as fans supposed to take away from it? That's the issue, especially when it comes to Goto/Nakamura/the IC title scene. The heavyweight title does have a different story going on but man does it drag. The way everything has been tied up with the "real" overarching story of Tana and Okada all these years means those Styles runs feel like weird interludes more than anything else, and we're back to our regularly scheduled programming when Okada or Tana are in the driver's seat. Nothing else matters or has mattered outside of them until after WK10. Where they go from there, as that seems where Okada is going to be crowned as the new Ace, is going to be the real make or break. There is a ton they could do that would be fun and interesting, but they seem dead set against trying anything new. But maybe that will change. It's going to have to regardless with how banged up Tana and Nakamura are. So the real issue isn't simply who's holding the titles. It's the storytelling and the booking that makes it outright hard to really care. Once you understand their booking philosophy there's no drama in it anymore because there are no surprises. Enjoyable matches, to be sure, but I'm also big on the stories and excitement wrestling at its best should provide and there's just none of that in it for me right now in New Japan. Of course I'm still going to watch and follow the product but it's disheartening nonetheless. So what exactly do you want? Parity booking? You can't book everyone to be on the same level, that doesn't make money. There's a reason pretty much every major company leans on a small group guys because that's how you create stars and pro wrestling is star driven. Did you also have a problem with the heavyweight title always ending up back on Muto or Hashimoto in the 90s? Or Misawa or Kobashi in All Japan? Austin in the Attitude Era? Do you think every promotion should be like ROH where very few guys hold the title more than once? What would make the title matter to you? Plus, there really wasn't a strong consensus about who'd win the Nakamura/Goto match, so I don't know why you're talking about it like it was incredibly obvious. I saw a lot of people pick Goto.
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Post by Raskovnik on Sept 27, 2015 15:13:23 GMT -5
It's not the specific title. It's the thought process and the booking. All the drama of a title defense is gone because they only want it on the big three. They've made it a point to show that no one else can hang at their level, not when it really counts, and now everything feels inconsequential. That's what I'm bothered by. It'd be just as bullshit if Goto was just keeping the heavyweight title warm for Nakamura in between his fourth and fifth reigns in this hypothetical scenario. Where do we go from here? What did that mean for everyone involved? What story does that tell? What are we as fans supposed to take away from it? That's the issue, especially when it comes to Goto/Nakamura/the IC title scene. The heavyweight title does have a different story going on but man does it drag. The way everything has been tied up with the "real" overarching story of Tana and Okada all these years means those Styles runs feel like weird interludes more than anything else, and we're back to our regularly scheduled programming when Okada or Tana are in the driver's seat. Nothing else matters or has mattered outside of them until after WK10. Where they go from there, as that seems where Okada is going to be crowned as the new Ace, is going to be the real make or break. There is a ton they could do that would be fun and interesting, but they seem dead set against trying anything new. But maybe that will change. It's going to have to regardless with how banged up Tana and Nakamura are. So the real issue isn't simply who's holding the titles. It's the storytelling and the booking that makes it outright hard to really care. Once you understand their booking philosophy there's no drama in it anymore because there are no surprises. Enjoyable matches, to be sure, but I'm also big on the stories and excitement wrestling at its best should provide and there's just none of that in it for me right now in New Japan. Of course I'm still going to watch and follow the product but it's disheartening nonetheless. So what exactly do you want? Parity booking? You can't book everyone to be on the same level, that doesn't make money. There's a reason pretty much every major company leans on a small group guys because that's how you create stars and pro wrestling is star driven. Did you also have a problem with the heavyweight title always ending up back on Muto or Hashimoto in the 90s? Or Misawa or Kobashi in All Japan? Austin in the Attitude Era? Do you think every promotion should be like ROH where very few guys hold the title more than once? What would make the title matter to you? Plus, there really wasn't a strong consensus about who'd win the Nakamura/Goto match, so I don't know why you're talking about it like it was incredibly obvious. I saw a lot of people pick Goto. I did enjoy that stuff at the time, but as I've gotten older and gained more perspective I've seen how ruinous that style of booking has been for both the promotions and especially the talent themselves. If you want to bring up Misawa/Kobashi, then look no further than what that style, both in-ring and the philosophy behind it, did to the men and to NOAH itself. I love NOAH dearly, it's what really got me hooked on puro back in the day, but it's a shell of its former self and has been ever since Misawa passed. I don't want anything even remotely similar to happen to New Japan. Every tidbit that comes out with how immobile Nakamura and Tanahashi are backstage it legitimately upsets me. It's absolutely a delicate balance between working with the talent people want to pay to see, keeping them interesting enough for people to want to pay to see them, while building up new talent at the same time, but something has got to give. There's going to be an enormous vacuum once Nakamura and Tanahashi are gone beyond just their absence because they haven't treated anyone else like they matter. They screwed over Naito the first time, they've been perennially f***ing Goto over, and they refuse to let Shibata rise through the ranks despite how over and believable he is. Those guys are all incredible, believable talent, crammed up against the glass ceiling, begging to break through. But the most important thing is fans WANT them to be there too. That's half the battle they already have won. The fans want to see them! But the bookers won't allow for it. They've even proven they can make a new star from scratch, come hell or high water, with this ferocious, unending Okada push, if they are ever again compelled to do such a thing. There's no good reason for any of those guys not being any more than they are. So, to answer your question, what would make the title matter to me, is treating whoever holds the title, regardless of what title it is or who they are, like they matter. What I wanted for Goto was the exact opposite of parity booking, because Nakamura getting it back IS parity booking. I wanted Goto to decisively topple Nakamura. I wanted him to prove he was better than Nakamura after all of the shit Nakamura was talking, after all of the shit he's put up with over the years from his G1 win being treated as more of a fluke than anything else all the way up until last night and all of the talk of Nakamura getting back "HIS" title, since everyone knows Goto is a choke artist. I wanted him put to bed any lingering doubts of him being unable to consistently perform when the bright lights are on, to make clear that he's NOT a choke artist, and to get in there and kick Nakamura's ass. That would have been a better, feel-good story for an unsung hero of NJPW, and one that makes sense, rather than reverting back to the status quo. The only story they told with this Nakamura/Goto thing is Nakamura is the only one who really matters and the title is his even when he's not holding it and Goto's a choke artist geek. It was ultimately pointless. It didn't help Nakamura any and it actively hurts Goto, your hardworking face whose credibility is strenuous enough as it is. That's not what good storytelling does. I talk about the result of Goto/Nakamura being obvious because it really was obvious to anyone who has been paying attention to the product for any length of time and knows how things go for Goto. If people were picking Goto as a legit choice to win than they were either incredibly optimistic or just plain unfamiliar with how NJPW does things. That's the simple truth.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Sept 27, 2015 15:53:36 GMT -5
Everything Raskovik just said speaks volumes about the situation in New Japan right now.
Look at the Four Pillars. Yes, they made AJPW the top promotion of the 90s and yet once they either retired or injuries bogged them down the company went down the drain, because no one was built as capable of taking their place or Misawa in NOAH. He was the heart and soul of the company and with his passing the same thing happened as it has become a mere shell of its former glory.
The same thing is very well going to happen to New Japan if they insist on doing this. Make it so Nakamura only matters, forget Tanahashi wins, its Nakamura who always wins and nobody ever looks good against him, they might as well rename it after him becasue even if they do beat him for The Belt, they've blatantly showed today that it's only a matter of time until he gets it back and you're worse off than you was before. At least with Tanahashi you look like a star agaisnt him and he sells the loss to you.
At this point I don't want AJ to face Nakamura because he'll just wind up losing like all the rest.
Goto needed it, Shibata needs it, as I would've wanted nothing more than Goto to defend it against him at WK10 and I'm sure tens of thousands would have crammed into The Tokyo Dome to see it. Naito could use it for his new character. Ibushi should've won it at WK9. Hell Karl Anderson, who's been on the verge of breaking out at times in singles could have a great run with it. But no, keep it on the damn status quo.
F*** Gedo and Jado
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Post by Starshine on Sept 27, 2015 17:49:25 GMT -5
I Think Kushida got it worse than Goto these last two shows. There's no reason he shouldn't have at least one of the junior belts right now, preferably the singles title.
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Post by Just call me D.j.m. on Sept 27, 2015 17:56:36 GMT -5
Not just KUSHIDA. But why is Kenny Omega still in the Jrs? He cleaned it up, didn't he!
Shouldn't he and Kota be feuding? Maybe even over the NEVER title? Or tag-teaming again? Remember when Bullet Club was beating up Kota Ibushi, it was Kenny that backed off and didn't wanna do it? What happened with that?
And, yeah. The whole thing with Goto is kinda BS. It's nice to know I'm not the only one wondering what Jado & Gedo are thinking right now.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Sept 27, 2015 18:00:16 GMT -5
That's another thing, KUSHIDA who is beloved by the fans, wins The belt at Dominion after finally winning BOSJ and is set and looks to have a long reign with it, possibly defending it against Shelley as well eventually, only to unceremonsiously lose it to Omega Wednesday. Ended just like that, and after Sydal had made a challenge to face him and he had accepted it.
How are we suppose to buy into him if he wins it for a third time when he's already lost it twice and each reign has been a mere two months?
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Post by Just call me D.j.m. on Sept 27, 2015 20:13:23 GMT -5
That's another thing, KUSHIDA who is beloved by the fans, wins The belt at Dominion after finally winning BOSJ and is set and looks to have a long reign with it, possibly defending it against Shelley as well eventually, only to unceremonsiously lose it to Omega Wednesday. Ended just like that, and after Sydal had made a challenge to face him and he had accepted it. How are we suppose to buy into him if he wins it for a third time when he's already lost it twice and each reign has been a mere two months? You could say the same thing about Goto, and they've made it pretty clear. You're not supposed to buy into them.
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Post by berlynwright on Sept 28, 2015 2:24:12 GMT -5
Looks like Anderson v Nakamura is only set for Power Struggle which gives us some hope for AJ to challenge IC title post match. But going by trend, we will probably just see Ibushi to the challenger again
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Sept 28, 2015 5:30:12 GMT -5
Doesn't matter either way, because spoiler
Nakamura wins
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