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Post by horsemen4ever on Sept 25, 2013 19:32:51 GMT -5
Ducktales snubbed? How can any show that has moments like this, not make the list. To this day, I remember little scenes like this.
And of course this moment.
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Sept 25, 2013 19:42:40 GMT -5
The Simpsons... as number one... AGAIN!!! I'm sorry, this is just bullpoop. I don't care how good it was during its prime, the fact is its spent the last fifteen years being, at best, mediocre, and at worst absolutely horrible. I don't care if you are old enough to remember its glory days, when a show has been on the air for 25 years and has had more bad episodes then good (and it has) then it doesn't deserve a free pass and an honorary top spot.
He-Man just sticks out like a sore thumb. I mean, I love the show, but I'll admit I love it for completely nostalgic reasons. Remove my nostalgia and all your left with is a silly 80's thirty minute toy commercial.
Transformers not making it is another surprise. Yes, the original show was also just a silly 80's thirty minute toy commercial, but one that spawned a franchise that existed non-stop for nearly thirty years, nine spin-off cartoons in the US alone, an animated theatrical movie and three (soon to be four) live action theatrical movies. It should get name checked for the legacy its created alone.
So no Teen Titans? Did this list declare it "objectively bad" as well?
I also just noticed no Gargoyles. Yeah, this list officially sucks.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 25, 2013 19:46:07 GMT -5
Maybe because I never really was in the age range of the show, but I don't know that I'd consider Pokemon in the top 60 even if mainstream anime were included. In fact, of all the mainstream anime (mainstream being major Saturday morning cartoon status), the only one that I think belongs would be Speed Racer and maybe Sailor Moon. I think there are bigger shows.
I do like hat they didn't shy away from modern shows just because they were new. There's more to quality than popularity and one thing this list did do well was represent from a variety of time periods. But the lack of Duck Tales for Drawn Together is just unforgivable. there's always going to be variability, something like Darkwing Duck and Gargoyles and Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers would make my list over things like Peanuts, Bob's Burgers, and Fairly Odd Parents, but mileage varies on these things.
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8.2.11/SAVIOR_NEZ
Don Corleone
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Posts: 1,534
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Post by 8.2.11/SAVIOR_NEZ on Sept 25, 2013 19:58:36 GMT -5
Why on earth would DuckTales not be on this list? It basically started the trend of animation studios investing more money in syndicated animated series. Before it's arrival, TV animation was done on the cheap, but DuckTales popularity proved that quality paid. In fact, this list should have all of the original Disney Afternoon shows (Gummi Bears, Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers, TaleSpin, and Darkwing Duck) on it. All those early shows were very well written, had top notch animation (usually from the folks at Tokio Movie Shinsa), with stories and characters that hold up really well today.
I'm also shocked by the lack of Tiny Toon Adventures, another show that took a chance at not only high quality animation and infusing the zany Looney Tunes humor into it, but also by benefiting from Steven Spielberg's involvement. The fact that they used a full orchestra on a TV cartoon series showed their dedication to making it quality. Maybe it's nostalgia talking, but you just don't see that type of quality and dedication in today's animation.
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Malcolm
Grimlock
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Post by Malcolm on Sept 25, 2013 20:17:36 GMT -5
Let's be honest; no matter what they would've put on the list, chances are that someone wouldn't be happy.
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Post by horsemen4ever on Sept 25, 2013 21:56:49 GMT -5
I am surprised no one mention the snub of the Gary Coleman show, I mean what the hell. This list is forever tainted because of that.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Sept 25, 2013 21:57:21 GMT -5
Why on earth would DuckTales not be on this list? It basically started the trend of animation studios investing more money in syndicated animated series. Before it's arrival, TV animation was done on the cheap, but DuckTales popularity proved that quality paid. In fact, this list should have all of the original Disney Afternoon shows (Gummi Bears, Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers, TaleSpin, and Darkwing Duck) on it. All those early shows were very well written, had top notch animation (usually from the folks at Tokio Movie Shinsa), with stories and characters that hold up really well today. I'm also shocked by the lack of Tiny Toon Adventures, another show that took a chance at not only high quality animation and infusing the zany Looney Tunes humor into it, but also by benefiting from Steven Spielberg's involvement. The fact that they used a full orchestra on a TV cartoon series showed their dedication to making it quality. Maybe it's nostalgia talking, but you just don't see that type of quality and dedication in today's animation. I've said it before, starting in the late 50's (but not rearing it's ugly head entirely until the mid 60's), animation started to take a dive. Quality writing and drawing declined in favor of rushing out cheaply produced garbage for TV, essentially because they felt they could. No offense to anyone who grew up in this period, but holy hell did the rush a bunch of garbage out there. This was felt all over the place, and almost caused Disney to go bankrupt. This went on for 20+ goddamn years. For that entire run, most mainstream animation was shit, something you'd credit to Hanna Barbera, to which I've always maintained they just didn't f***ing care. I'd say that animation didn't recover until Don Bluth stepped up to the plate and started putting forth quality storytelling and amazing animation. Even so, it was still a few years before we saw it on TV. But in my opinion, Ducktales and Tiny Toon Advetures paved the way for better cartoons to come along. Seeing the change happen growing up was staggering. There's a reason why they called it an animation renaissance.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Sept 25, 2013 22:01:26 GMT -5
Let's be honest; no matter what they would've put on the list, chances are that someone wouldn't be happy. Realistically? Yes. But at the same time, I'd love to see their reasoning on a lot of these shows, because I could just as easily put together a much better list with less of a bias. Sure, I'm sure some people would find faults no matter what, but I doubt it would be as unorthodox as this list that looks like it was put together in 10 minutes.
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Post by wildojinx on Sept 25, 2013 22:12:36 GMT -5
Real Ghostbusters needs to be on that list too. The producers could have just made a cheap cash-in on the film, but instead they went above and beyond, presenting a show with clever writing, and awesome monsters. Heck, they even had Cthulhu in one episode, Cthulhu! Even Ducktales didnt go there. I'd even argue it was part of the animation Renaissance, and declare it Dic's best cartoon (yes, even better than SonicSatAm).
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hassanchop
Grimlock
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Posts: 14,810
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Post by hassanchop on Sept 26, 2013 0:00:18 GMT -5
How come Ed, Edd n' Eddy isn't in this list?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 26, 2013 4:11:27 GMT -5
I know I'm just joining the chorus of bitching about a list, but as an avid animation fan, that list is so wrong-headed in every direction it takes.
First, I think it's a mistake to include the theatrical shorts in with television shows; partly because, when you do that, you open a floodgate of problems. If you're including the theatrical shorts like Looney Tunes (and is it considered different from Merry Melodies, a technically separate line of cartoons?), Popeye and Tom & Jerry, then you're left with glaring omissions like Betty Boop, Fleischer's groundbreaking Superman and, I dunno, this entire line of cartoons from Disney starring Mickey, Donald and the gang.
Jem and the Holograms? Everyone does realize that one is only popular in an ironic way, not genuine nostalgia, right? Seriously, anybody, surmise the plot of ONE episode without using the internet or other cheat methods.
The Adventures of Rocky and His Friends - I assume they mean Rocky and Bullwinkle?
The entire enormous field of anime shows are represented by two lone works: The relatively-recent Avatar and the bones-old Battle of the Planets. No Speed Racer, no Pokemon, not even Voltron.
Not only does He-Man make it on the list (deservedly, admittedly) but so does Thundercats, yet the big two of the 80s toy-commercial toons - G.I. Joe and Transformers - are nowhere to be seen.
Bob's Burgers? Archer? Way, way too early on those. Those are the kind of choices that, had this list been composed a few years back, would have had the Oblongs and Seaquest in their place. Adventure Time I'll give a pass on in that regard, it seems to have proved itself to have real legs.
Drawn Together? Really? I love the show, but...really?
The lack of Venture Bros. Meh.
Not the iconic 1960s Spider-Man show, not the well-remembered Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, not even the 90s toon, which I hate but has a huge following. No, it's the most recent version. Double-meh.
All in all, just not a very serious list. Yeah, they're cartoons, not supposed to be serious, but if you're going to purport to do such a list, at least do your homework.
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Post by Rumble McSkirmish on Sept 26, 2013 7:04:41 GMT -5
I'm also shocked by the lack of Tiny Toon Adventures, another show that took a chance at not only high quality animation and infusing the zany Looney Tunes humor into it, but also by benefiting from Steven Spielberg's involvement. The fact that they used a full orchestra on a TV cartoon series showed their dedication to making it quality. Maybe it's nostalgia talking, but you just don't see that type of quality and dedication in today's animation. To be fair they did include Animaniacs on the list which built upon the foundations laid down by Tiny Toons and in my opinion greatly improved upon them in someways.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 26, 2013 7:28:12 GMT -5
Not the iconic 1960s Spider-Man show, not the well-remembered Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, not even the 90s toon, which I hate but has a huge following. No, it's the most recent version. Double-meh. Actually, the most recent one is Ultimate Spider-man. Spectacular Spider-man came out in 08-09 and had a good following and was extremely well received. Spectacular has been considered better than the 90's and Amazing Friends before. They dropped it to make Ultimate Spider-man, which has not been so well received, but I don't think you can downplay the quality of Spectacular. And Avatar really deserves it over Pokemon, Voltron, or Speed Racer. It should probably be in the top 10.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 26, 2013 11:38:21 GMT -5
Not the iconic 1960s Spider-Man show, not the well-remembered Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, not even the 90s toon, which I hate but has a huge following. No, it's the most recent version. Double-meh. Actually, the most recent one is Ultimate Spider-man. Spectacular Spider-man came out in 08-09 and had a good following and was extremely well received. Spectacular has been considered better than the 90's and Amazing Friends before. They dropped it to make Ultimate Spider-man, which has not been so well received, but I don't think you can downplay the quality of Spectacular. And Avatar really deserves it over Pokemon, Voltron, or Speed Racer. It should probably be in the top 10. Is Ultimate Spiderman the one on Disney XD that has had Agent Colson show up on it?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 26, 2013 13:54:05 GMT -5
Not the iconic 1960s Spider-Man show, not the well-remembered Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, not even the 90s toon, which I hate but has a huge following. No, it's the most recent version. Double-meh. Actually, the most recent one is Ultimate Spider-man. Spectacular Spider-man came out in 08-09 and had a good following and was extremely well received. Spectacular has been considered better than the 90's and Amazing Friends before. They dropped it to make Ultimate Spider-man, which has not been so well received, but I don't think you can downplay the quality of Spectacular. And Avatar really deserves it over Pokemon, Voltron, or Speed Racer. It should probably be in the top 10. Not disparaging Spectactular at all, I quite enjoyed that version, but ranking it above either of the other two mentioned is just...strange. Sure it had some well-done animation and designs, but in the bigger scheme of things? I don't get it. The 60s version is iconic - the "does whatever a spider can" theme song, being Ralph Bakshi's first real break-through work...hell, look at all the online memes based on it. (Seriously, go to Google Images and type in Spider-Man Meme). Overall, as good as Spectacular was, could it really rank above any of the pre-2000 Spider-Man cartoons in terms of cultural longevity or legacy? I wasn't questioning Avatar's placement, but rather the notion that of a list of "greatest cartoons of all time" only two out of fifty came from Japan/anime. Granted, we're going with ones that have a special cultural status in the U.S., but there've been so many big ones that made it successfully here that I find it strange only two placed. They almost feel like token choices.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Sept 26, 2013 14:36:49 GMT -5
Let's be honest; no matter what they would've put on the list, chances are that someone wouldn't be happy. Welcome to the internet.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 26, 2013 14:47:05 GMT -5
My personal list...
1- The Simpsons (until season 12) 2- M.A.S.K 3- Batman: The Animated Series 4- He-MAN 5- Bravestarr 6- Dr Katz: Professional Therapist 7- Prince Valiant 8- Mysterious Cities of Gold 9- X-MEN 10- Johnny Quest (new version)
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Post by Hurbster on Sept 26, 2013 15:30:34 GMT -5
How come Ed, Edd n' Eddy isn't in this list? Buttered Toast ?
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Post by Sir Woodrow on Sept 26, 2013 15:47:23 GMT -5
This list is invalid due to the lack of Chuck Norris Karate Kommandos
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 26, 2013 17:32:51 GMT -5
Actually, the most recent one is Ultimate Spider-man. Spectacular Spider-man came out in 08-09 and had a good following and was extremely well received. Spectacular has been considered better than the 90's and Amazing Friends before. They dropped it to make Ultimate Spider-man, which has not been so well received, but I don't think you can downplay the quality of Spectacular. And Avatar really deserves it over Pokemon, Voltron, or Speed Racer. It should probably be in the top 10. Not disparaging Spectactular at all, I quite enjoyed that version, but ranking it above either of the other two mentioned is just...strange. Sure it had some well-done animation and designs, but in the bigger scheme of things? I don't get it. The 60s version is iconic - the "does whatever a spider can" theme song, being Ralph Bakshi's first real break-through work...hell, look at all the online memes based on it. (Seriously, go to Google Images and type in Spider-Man Meme). Overall, as good as Spectacular was, could it really rank above any of the pre-2000 Spider-Man cartoons in terms of cultural longevity or legacy? I wasn't questioning Avatar's placement, but rather the notion that of a list of "greatest cartoons of all time" only two out of fifty came from Japan/anime. Granted, we're going with ones that have a special cultural status in the U.S., but there've been so many big ones that made it successfully here that I find it strange only two placed. They almost feel like token choices. I don't think the 90's show has had much longevity either, to be honest. It wasn't exactly Batman: The Animated Series popular, and when you reboot these superhero shows as often as they do now, it's going to be difficult for any to really have that much longevity. And since it is the least of "Greatest" and not "most influential" I think the quality of show comes into play a good bit. While 60's Spiderman was very influential for the character, it wasn't the highest quality show throughout, due to budget issues. Granted, I'd rank it above Jem, but if I were making a list I don't know that it'd have any better chance of making it on mine than Spectacular. As for the anime question, like I said, I'd probably only include Speed Racer if I were making it (not including Avatar, since that's American). While a lot of people loved Pokemon and Dragonball Z, objectively I don't think they were very good shows for the time they come out. And it's TV Guide, so all of their lists implicitly have "American" in them since they only tend to include shows that they would have covered (Battle of the Planets pretty much being Power Rangers to Gatchaman's Super Sentai, if that makes sense.)
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