Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,366
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 9, 2013 12:08:30 GMT -5
You are right. It is a very weak argument. I guess I just don't understand why they do a lot of the things that they do. They ruin lives and push for things that damage the US economy. I have no faith that they do things because they are true believers, so I just cannot see their angle and reasoning for most of the things that they do.
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SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
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Post by SOR on Nov 9, 2013 12:12:24 GMT -5
Something seems fishy.
Why would he shoot for no reason? I mean, there is a chance he is bat shit insane but I have a feeling we're not getting the full story here.
If he is bat shit crazy though and shot her for no reason then yes, put him in prison for a long time.
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Post by KStrick on Nov 9, 2013 12:24:32 GMT -5
Something seems fishy. Why would he shoot for no reason? I mean, there is a chance he is bat shit insane but I have a feeling we're not getting the full story here. If he is bat shit crazy though and shot her for no reason then yes, put him in prison for a long time. Cenk Uyger of The Young Turks had an interesting theory. He postulated that the guy had bought the shotgun for personal defense and might have been itching to use it for that purpose and jumped at the flimsiest excuse to do so. It is not as though she was sneaking around in the back yard or was trying to break in. She knocked on the door. She turned to leave when it appeared that she would not get assistance there. There was no reason to "defend" himself. Oh GOD, you're now referencing the Young Turks? No WONDER you think the Koch brothers created the Stand Your Ground law as a way to "shoot darkies". Dude, PLEASE find more credible references. Please!
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,366
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 9, 2013 12:29:42 GMT -5
Actually, I try to take in multiple sources of differing mindsets. I already stated that my argument was weak and not well thought out. Not to mention, I accidentally steered the conversation away from the important thing, and that would be the poor young woman and her family. I would be willing to delete my posts from this thread to undo that damage.
Not that it matters, but what do you consider a credible source?
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,627
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Post by Renslayer on Nov 9, 2013 13:12:07 GMT -5
Sorry, not buying any defense, rationalization, justification, whatever for her killer. You don't kill unarmed people who are looking for help after a crash. You don't tell the detective your shotgun went off accidentally, & then turn around & have your lawyer call your actions justified. Lock this man up & throw away the key.
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Post by Piccolo on Nov 9, 2013 13:37:01 GMT -5
Thanks for those links. The second article mentions that she was shot in the face, not the back of the head, and one of the comments says that the owner of the parked car that she hit called an ambulance for her, but she left the scene of the accident. An article that I found corroborates that neighbors came out to help her, and she was bleeding from the head and saying she wanted to go home. www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57611554-504083/renisha-mcbride-shooting-homeowner-who-killed-teen-could-have-called-911-if-he-was-afraid-says-atty-for-victims-family/So it seems like she was probably disoriented from the head wound, and potentially impaired in some way prior to getting injured (because it's rare to hit a parked car if you're alert... maybe she was falling asleep at the wheel, or had something in her system). I'm less inclined to think she was seeking help because her cell phone died if there was already help available at the scene of the accident... she could've used one of their phones. The point being, I wonder if this was a situation where, in her confused state, she wandered down the street and tried to enter a house thinking that it was hers. That happened a fair bit with impaired (drunk, in their case) students in college (some who even got through an unlocked door and ended up staying the night, unbeknownst to the owners of the house until morning)... it could've easily happened to someone with a head wound.
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Nov 9, 2013 13:39:33 GMT -5
If it's true that she was trying to get into his house without knocking or anything, that changes things considerably. Unfortunately, if she was in a state of shock or panic she might not have necessarily thought to knock. This doesn't make the guy a cold-hearted murderer, it makes it a tragic mistake that does need to go through the legal process to fully determine if there was any wrongdoing.
I live out in the middle of nowhere and I had somebody, just a few days ago, walk into my house at 2AM. I also have a shotgun. My first instinct is not to shoot the person unless they are a threat--granted, you cannot always know who is a threat and who is not a threat. This was an old man who had some issues with Alzheimer's. I just reasoned with him. You absolutely have a right to defend yourself with deadly force when you feel that your life is in danger, but you should have reason to fear. I'm very happy that I wasn't asleep at the time, though. Being awoken to the sounds of a stranger coming into your house late at night will reasonable put almost anybody in fear of their life.
It's also important to note that calling 911 will not magically teleport cops to your house to save your life. It can take anywhere from 10 minutes to over an hour. Somebody can kill you in less than a few minutes.
With this, though, it might come down to if she knocked on the door or not. I'm not sure where that part of the story came from, since he's stated that she did not knock on the door and just tried to enter his house. If, at first, he said she knocked on the door and then later changed his story--then yeah, the guy is nuts and he murdered her and he's trying to change his story. Also, unfortunately, we do not have her side of the story. I just think the it's sensationalism with the initial stories that tried to say he shot her in the face after she knocked on the door if there's no actual evidence that's what happened.
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Post by Piccolo on Nov 9, 2013 13:45:43 GMT -5
With someone I found in my house, I might attack first and ask questions later (good for you, by the way, for being patient with the elderly fella), but someone on the front porch... nah. Even if I thought they were breaking in, I would call the cops first and wait to see if the person got the door open. If they do, yep, I'd shoot them if they don't look confused and harmless. But if they don't... I mean, why would you do anything to them? I'd be horrified if I hurt anyone who wasn't really intending to hurt me.
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Post by KStrick on Nov 9, 2013 21:43:10 GMT -5
Actually, I try to take in multiple sources of differing mindsets. I already stated that my argument was weak and not well thought out. Not to mention, I accidentally steered the conversation away from the important thing, and that would be the poor young woman and her family. I would be willing to delete my posts from this thread to undo that damage. Not that it matters, but what do you consider a credible source? Just like my stance on ALL of these, a credible source is one that leaves opinion at the door, and just gives the fact, then follows up once all the evidence is presented. Once you get into opinion (The Young Turks, they don't even PRETEND to be news), and they jump to conclusions, then yeah, it's not a credible source of information. ...just sayin' And now reports are coming out that the car crash occurred no less than 2 hours before the shooting. I'm more inclined to believe that there's always the truth somewhere in the middle of opinion.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Nov 9, 2013 23:20:38 GMT -5
Actually, I try to take in multiple sources of differing mindsets. I already stated that my argument was weak and not well thought out. Not to mention, I accidentally steered the conversation away from the important thing, and that would be the poor young woman and her family. I would be willing to delete my posts from this thread to undo that damage. Not that it matters, but what do you consider a credible source? Just like my stance on ALL of these, a credible source is one that leaves opinion at the door, and just gives the fact, then follows up once all the evidence is presented. Once you get into opinion (The Young Turks, they don't even PRETEND to be news), and they jump to conclusions, then yeah, it's not a credible source of information. ...just sayin' And now reports are coming out that the car crash occurred no less than 2 hours before the shooting. I'm more inclined to believe that there's always the truth somewhere in the middle of opinion. That's not really an answer to his question. Hell, that's not an answer at all. Regardless of how you take the opinion, the facts are: A. A man virtually decapitated an unarmed girl (either shooting her in the back of the head or the face, depends on the reports) with a shotgun, B. That man hasn't given a consistent reason for his shooting or even how the gun went off, and C. That man has yet to be identified or arrested. Sorry to break it to you, but when one of the people involved is dead, the other keeps lying, and the police aren't getting involved to figure out the truth, all that really leaves is room for opinion.
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Post by Some Guy on Nov 9, 2013 23:31:44 GMT -5
Dearborn Heights is legit scary. I lived there for all of one night. I've gone to college in Dearborn for 5 years and volunteered in Dearborn Heights at times...it isn't THAT bad. At least not on East Detroit (I work in Detroit too, so I'm just asking for death here) or Flint levels. Thanks for those links. The second article mentions that she was shot in the face, not the back of the head, and one of the comments says that the owner of the parked car that she hit called an ambulance for her, but she left the scene of the accident. An article that I found corroborates that neighbors came out to help her, and she was bleeding from the head and saying she wanted to go home. www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57611554-504083/renisha-mcbride-shooting-homeowner-who-killed-teen-could-have-called-911-if-he-was-afraid-says-atty-for-victims-family/So it seems like she was probably disoriented from the head wound, and potentially impaired in some way prior to getting injured (because it's rare to hit a parked car if you're alert... maybe she was falling asleep at the wheel, or had something in her system). I'm less inclined to think she was seeking help because her cell phone died if there was already help available at the scene of the accident... she could've used one of their phones. The point being, I wonder if this was a situation where, in her confused state, she wandered down the street and tried to enter a house thinking that it was hers. That happened a fair bit with impaired (drunk, in their case) students in college (some who even got through an unlocked door and ended up staying the night, unbeknownst to the owners of the house until morning)... it could've easily happened to someone with a head wound. I can see that, but I don't see any argument at all for this guy shooting her in the head. None at all...she may have freaked him out a bit, but that cannot be a defense for firing a gun at someone's head. He has to be in jail for AT LEAST manslaughter for this shit, he cannot possibly get off with nothing.
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Post by KStrick on Nov 10, 2013 0:30:28 GMT -5
Just like my stance on ALL of these, a credible source is one that leaves opinion at the door, and just gives the fact, then follows up once all the evidence is presented. Once you get into opinion (The Young Turks, they don't even PRETEND to be news), and they jump to conclusions, then yeah, it's not a credible source of information. ...just sayin' And now reports are coming out that the car crash occurred no less than 2 hours before the shooting. I'm more inclined to believe that there's always the truth somewhere in the middle of opinion. That's not really an answer to his question. Hell, that's not an answer at all. Regardless of how you take the opinion, the facts are: A. A man virtually decapitated an unarmed girl (either shooting her in the back of the head or the face, depends on the reports) with a shotgun, B. That man hasn't given a consistent reason for his shooting or even how the gun went off, and C. That man has yet to be identified or arrested. Sorry to break it to you, but when one of the people involved is dead, the other keeps lying, and the police aren't getting involved to figure out the truth, all that really leaves is room for opinion. His question was "what is a credible source". My answer is one that strives to give the evidence clean of bias or opinion. Granted, there's no such thing anymore, but come on, when the dude's first reaction is to blame some vast "right wing Koch brothers conspiracy" to eliminate black people, excuse me if I find it hard to take anything said further at face value, just like I don't give credence to people who think 9/11 was an inside job, or people who think Obama is a Kenyan socialist Muslim trying to turn America socialist through Obamacare. b.) Did I ever imply celebration that there's a dead person involved? It IS an absolute tragedy. I'm not 100% on this dude's side, either. I don't understand why, if concerned, you would open the front door, shotgun or not. I just always try to push people to sit back and wait for evidence to come out. Remember not ONE DAY ago when people were jumping all over the "police brutality" card for shooting an "unarmed boy", only to find out that he had almost killed people by driving through a college campus, disabled 2 squad cars, and attempted to ram police officers? Makes for a different story. To what I've seen online, the ONLY publicly released quotes from the shooter are from the police report and from the lawyer. If there's more quotes from the shooter, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, your claim of his "lying" is subjective, and likely baseless. Who is saying the police aren't getting involved? EVERY credible report I've seen online states that the police have pushed for a warrant, but local prosecution wants more evidence, eye-witness statements, and such before they move to convict and prosecute. Should he be in prison right now? Maybe. But that's not yours or my decision to make. If it comes clear that he did it out of spite, racism, WHATEVER, then yeah, put him in a cell the rest of his life for taking an innocent life, but don't claim police aren't doing "anything" because he's not in a jail cell. Why hasn't he been identified? Need I remind you what happened LAST time there was a "white"-on-black "racist" issue? Where people were giving out wrong addresses, and innocent people were being affected? There's really no reason for this to be public information. At the end of the day, like I said earlier, if evidence does come to light that he did it out of spite or racism, fine. Let what needs to happen happen. However, I was HOPING America would learn a lesson after the Treyvon Martin situation, but it appears we STILL have a long way to go.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,366
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Nov 10, 2013 1:57:14 GMT -5
That's not really an answer to his question. Hell, that's not an answer at all. Regardless of how you take the opinion, the facts are: A. A man virtually decapitated an unarmed girl (either shooting her in the back of the head or the face, depends on the reports) with a shotgun, B. That man hasn't given a consistent reason for his shooting or even how the gun went off, and C. That man has yet to be identified or arrested. Sorry to break it to you, but when one of the people involved is dead, the other keeps lying, and the police aren't getting involved to figure out the truth, all that really leaves is room for opinion. His question was "what is a credible source". My answer is one that strives to give the evidence clean of bias or opinion. Granted, there's no such thing anymore, but come on, when the dude's first reaction is to blame some vast "right wing Koch brothers conspiracy" to eliminate black people, excuse me if I find it hard to take anything said further at face value, just like I don't give credence to people who think 9/11 was an inside job, or people who think Obama is a Kenyan socialist Muslim trying to turn America socialist through Obamacare. b.) Did I ever imply celebration that there's a dead person involved? It IS an absolute tragedy. I'm not 100% on this dude's side, either. I don't understand why, if concerned, you would open the front door, shotgun or not. I just always try to push people to sit back and wait for evidence to come out. Remember not ONE DAY ago when people were jumping all over the "police brutality" card for shooting an "unarmed boy", only to find out that he had almost killed people by driving through a college campus, disabled 2 squad cars, and attempted to ram police officers? Makes for a different story. To what I've seen online, the ONLY publicly released quotes from the shooter are from the police report and from the lawyer. If there's more quotes from the shooter, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, your claim of his "lying" is subjective, and likely baseless. Who is saying the police aren't getting involved? EVERY credible report I've seen online states that the police have pushed for a warrant, but local prosecution wants more evidence, eye-witness statements, and such before they move to convict and prosecute. Should he be in prison right now? Maybe. But that's not yours or my decision to make. If it comes clear that he did it out of spite, racism, WHATEVER, then yeah, put him in a cell the rest of his life for taking an innocent life, but don't claim police aren't doing "anything" because he's not in a jail cell. Why hasn't he been identified? Need I remind you what happened LAST time there was a "white"-on-black "racist" issue? Where people were giving out wrong addresses, and innocent people were being affected? There's really no reason for this to be public information. At the end of the day, like I said earlier, if evidence does come to light that he did it out of spite or racism, fine. Let what needs to happen happen. However, I was HOPING America would learn a lesson after the Treyvon Martin situation, but it appears we STILL have a long way to go. Can we drop that musing of mine? I deleted it because I posted it in the first place without thinking, agreed that the argument was weak and stupid, deleted my own posts on the issue as well as asked others to do the same, and stated that I should not have said it in the first damned place especially since it was distracting from what was really important (as in the actual relevant points in this case).
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Post by KStrick on Nov 10, 2013 2:00:37 GMT -5
His question was "what is a credible source". My answer is one that strives to give the evidence clean of bias or opinion. Granted, there's no such thing anymore, but come on, when the dude's first reaction is to blame some vast "right wing Koch brothers conspiracy" to eliminate black people, excuse me if I find it hard to take anything said further at face value, just like I don't give credence to people who think 9/11 was an inside job, or people who think Obama is a Kenyan socialist Muslim trying to turn America socialist through Obamacare. b.) Did I ever imply celebration that there's a dead person involved? It IS an absolute tragedy. I'm not 100% on this dude's side, either. I don't understand why, if concerned, you would open the front door, shotgun or not. I just always try to push people to sit back and wait for evidence to come out. Remember not ONE DAY ago when people were jumping all over the "police brutality" card for shooting an "unarmed boy", only to find out that he had almost killed people by driving through a college campus, disabled 2 squad cars, and attempted to ram police officers? Makes for a different story. To what I've seen online, the ONLY publicly released quotes from the shooter are from the police report and from the lawyer. If there's more quotes from the shooter, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, your claim of his "lying" is subjective, and likely baseless. Who is saying the police aren't getting involved? EVERY credible report I've seen online states that the police have pushed for a warrant, but local prosecution wants more evidence, eye-witness statements, and such before they move to convict and prosecute. Should he be in prison right now? Maybe. But that's not yours or my decision to make. If it comes clear that he did it out of spite, racism, WHATEVER, then yeah, put him in a cell the rest of his life for taking an innocent life, but don't claim police aren't doing "anything" because he's not in a jail cell. Why hasn't he been identified? Need I remind you what happened LAST time there was a "white"-on-black "racist" issue? Where people were giving out wrong addresses, and innocent people were being affected? There's really no reason for this to be public information. At the end of the day, like I said earlier, if evidence does come to light that he did it out of spite or racism, fine. Let what needs to happen happen. However, I was HOPING America would learn a lesson after the Treyvon Martin situation, but it appears we STILL have a long way to go. Can we drop that musing of mine? I deleted it because I posted it in the first place without thinking, agreed that the argument was weak and stupid, deleted my own posts on the issue as well as asked others to do the same, and stated that I should not have said it in the first damned place especially since it was distracting from what was really important (as in the actual relevant points in this case). Absolutely. Far as I'm concerned, we're square. God knows I've made my fair share of boners while posting. Thanks for being the bigger man in this.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Nov 10, 2013 16:25:05 GMT -5
Dearborn Heights is legit scary. I lived there for all of one night. I've gone to college in Dearborn for 5 years and volunteered in Dearborn Heights at times...it isn't THAT bad. At least not on East Detroit (I work in Detroit too, so I'm just asking for death here) or Flint levels. That's probably true, and I've been going to school in Dearborn since 2009. Maybe it was just a creepy street that I happened to sublet the wrong house on, that colored my experience of the area. Every place has its bad spots.
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Post by Some Guy on Nov 10, 2013 17:16:16 GMT -5
I've gone to college in Dearborn for 5 years and volunteered in Dearborn Heights at times...it isn't THAT bad. At least not on East Detroit (I work in Detroit too, so I'm just asking for death here) or Flint levels. That's probably true, and I've been going to school in Dearborn since 2009. Maybe it was just a creepy street that I happened to sublet the wrong house on, that colored my experience of the area. Every place has its bad spots. Wait, do you go to U of M Dearborn or Henry Ford?
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Nov 10, 2013 17:23:13 GMT -5
That's probably true, and I've been going to school in Dearborn since 2009. Maybe it was just a creepy street that I happened to sublet the wrong house on, that colored my experience of the area. Every place has its bad spots. Wait, do you go to U of M Dearborn or Henry Ford? HFCC nursing, for another 5 weeks or so.
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Post by Some Guy on Nov 10, 2013 17:27:51 GMT -5
Wait, do you go to U of M Dearborn or Henry Ford? HFCC nursing, for another 5 weeks or so. Oh that's cool. I graduate from U of M Dearborn in five weeks or so as well, so congrats.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Nov 11, 2013 13:31:24 GMT -5
HFCC nursing, for another 5 weeks or so. Oh that's cool. I graduate from U of M Dearborn in five weeks or so as well, so congrats. Congratulations to you, too.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 11, 2013 15:29:07 GMT -5
No justification for this.
Can't get into certain things without breaking rules, but as a nation we're freaking OBSESSED with "safety"...which usually translates into "shoot first, ask questions later". We're convinced everybody is out to get us, that everybody we see is a possible killer/thief/predator/etc., and insanely often our perceptions are based around skin color, accents, etc.
Our culture is a mess with this, and I can't say I'm at all surprised about this story, and I won't be at all surprised when the usual media talking heads pop up to turn it into "white America under attack" or some silliness.
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