Whitmer & Moff

[salTy]

From what I can get from watching my new ROH dvds, these guys seem like nothing but generic indy wrestlers that steal moves from Japan. Moreso for Moff who uses Chops, the Lariat, the Half-nelson Suplex, and the Burning Hammer.

Lame lame lame is all I can say.

[samachine]

lobo said:

From what I can get from watching my new ROH dvds, these guys seem like nothing but generic indy wrestlers that steal moves from Japan. Moreso for Moff who uses Chops, the Lariat, the Half-nelson Suplex, and the Burning Hammer.

Lame lame lame is all I can say.

Don't ever look at Arik Cannon then

[The Line]

So, American workers can't use Japanese moves? I never understood the logic in this.


But I liked Maff, as far as big men go. To bad he's blackballed. Whitmer was super generic back then. His Whitmer-Jacobs/Lacey's Angels days and beyond have been great though.

[salTy]

thebluedevil said:

So, American workers can't use Japanese moves? I never understood the logic in this.

No, Japanese moves are stolen all the time. But when someone like Moff uses all of Kobashi's trademark moves, that's when I get a little bothered.

[The Line]

lobo said:

thebluedevil said:

So, American workers can't use Japanese moves? I never understood the logic in this.

No, Japanese moves are stolen all the time. But when someone like Moff uses all of Kobashi's trademark moves, that's when I get a little bothered.

ok, just making sure. Because there are some people who get mad that Joe uses japanese moves. Mind you, that Joe got his break over there.

[Deleted]

Well, its not like you'll have to worry about Maff (with an a not an o, just to point out) anymore since I'm pretty sure if he shows up on any wrestling event, he and the guy who booked him will end up dead. As for Whitmer hes come leaps and bounds in the last year. He's still strictly midcard material for me, but he's a good Tommy Dreamer like character now. The guy whose always below the main event, never wins the big one, but goes out there and puts his body on the line every night.

[dirtydickraines]

Whats wrong with useing moves from Japan? I'm not a big puro mark so maybe it just doesn't bother me as much as it would someone else. With that said, there is nothing wrong with useing a few moves, its just when you steal someone's entire move-set as someone already said.

[DSR]

I thought the Lariat was Stan Hansen's move. And he ain't no Japanese guy!

By the way, if you don't like guys ripping off Japanese trademarks, steer clear of Eddie Kingston.

[Ultimo Chocula]

Even the best promotions with a solid roster will have a couple guys who just can't keep up with everyone else. BJ Whitmer is that guy in ROH.

[skiller]

Does anyone know what really happened between Homicide and Maff?

[Jeff]

Maff and Whitmer are cool ok.

[Doomrider]

I really, really miss Maff...when he left was about the time I stopped giving a crap about ROH...I miss the Maffball (that rolling cannonball move he did).

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

There's a fine line between respectful imitation and flat-out ripping off, and Dan Maff crossed that line.

Imitation is big in wrestling. To say that no wrestler should imitate another is nonsense. Some of the best wrestlers in history are imitators: there would be no Hulk Hogan without Superstar Billy Graham, no Ric Flair without Buddy Rogers. It's like art: each wrestler takes a little bit from their favorite, because after all, there's no better recipe for success than to imitate the best.

Every wrestler has to have a base, has to start somewhere, and with a few exceptions that starting point is often imitation. There are wrestlers who try to be the second coming of their personal favorites, but with a personal touch added: Chris Benoit is the obvious example, stating flat-out that he wanted to be the new Dynamite Kid; Dragon Kid seems to be in the same vein for Rey Mysterio (I wouldn't say that if Kid didn't use the Bermuda Triangle in addition to a very Rey-like move arsenal). Then there are patchwork wrestlers like Bryan Danielson and CM Punk, taking moves from any wrestler that they loved and putting them together in a logical manner for their own movesets. Then there are the stylistic imitators like the Rock or Samoa Joe, who do what they can to copy the spirit (and often, but not always, the moves) of a previous success story (Rock from Hulk Hogan, Joe from the Japanese style). Then there are the wrestlers who try to be original with whatever talent they have: Jack Evans with his gymnastic ability, Shingo Takagi with his strength, Kurt Angle with his amateur expertise.

But then there are the wrestlers who try to be out-and-out remakes of originals. Dan Maff stuck out to me as a blatant rip-off of Kenta Kobashi. He took Kobashi's arsenal, move for move, without any kind of flair beyond a penchant for no-selling chops and being a "tough street guy." Maff took the Half-Nelson Suplexes, the Burning Hammer, the big Lariats, the chops, the Head Drops 'R' Us style...it must have been with a supreme effort that he didn't take the Burning Sword as well. Maff brought nothing new to Kobashi's moves, and never even mixed up the Kobashi imitation with anything memorable.

There is a fine line. That line is crossed when somebody takes nothing but the moves, doesn't expand on it one bit, and re-enacts another wrestler's matches without an ounce of the soul the original put into his work. If there is anything good about Dan Maff as a wrestler, it's that the comparison between him and Kenta Kobashi shows clearly that it's not the moves, but the passion, psychology, selling, and drama of a match that contribute to the quality.

As for BJ Whitmer...he's come a ways from being the Jun Akiyama wannabe he was. He's found a niche in hardcore brawling, a style to work with, a wider moveset, and nothing left of his Akiyama-tude except for some Exploders and a finisher. He certainly doesn't take the Wrist-Clutch Fisherman Buster or the jumping knees or any of Akiyama's other signatures outside the Exploder usage/over-usage.

[MGH]

I love Whitmer, especially seeing how far he's come from the beginning of this year until now. Someone compared him to Tommy Dreamer, that's a really good comparison to me.

He's great at taking bumps and beatdowns and he can have some damn solid matches.

As for the ripping off of other people, I could really care less. If a match or performer is good than they are good. Everyone rips off everyone at some point anyway.

[Joekishi]

samachine said:

lobo said:

From what I can get from watching my new ROH dvds, these guys seem like nothing but generic indy wrestlers that steal moves from Japan. Moreso for Moff who uses Chops, the Lariat, the Half-nelson Suplex, and the Burning Hammer.

Lame lame lame is all I can say.

Don't ever look at Arik Cannon then

GOD I HATE THAT FAT GUY. he's like a fat less talented Shannon Moore.

Seriously I hate fat guys who are just fat without muscle doing the moves Arik Cannon does.

Atleast Kevin Steen works out.

Atleast colt cabana dropped weight.

Why does Arik Cannon use the DAMN BURNING HAMMER EVERY STUPID MATCH!

[backstagepowers]

I hate it when people bitch about American wrestlers "stealing" moves from Japanese wrestlers.

[Deleted]

skiller said:

Does anyone know what really happened between Homicide and Maff?

Nobody knows for sure. Homicide himself has said he can't discuss it at the moment due to legal stuff, but that alone shows how serious it if. Needless to say Maff did something BAD, something that Homicide considered a complete betrayal. Rumours persist that it involved a member of Homicide's family, the name most often coming up his UNDER-AGE DAUGHTER. But these are rumours and thats all. All anyone knows is Maff did something bad enough to be blackballed from the entire industry and anyone who does know is keeping it quiet. Homicide said he'd talk about it once the legal stuff was finished so we might someday find out. But for now its just one of lifes many mysteries.

[nisi]

I like BJ Whitmer

[salTy]

hardcorehick said:

There's a fine line between respectful imitation and flat-out ripping off, and Dan Maff crossed that line.

Imitation is big in wrestling. To say that no wrestler should imitate another is nonsense. Some of the best wrestlers in history are imitators: there would be no Hulk Hogan without Superstar Billy Graham, no Ric Flair without Buddy Rogers. It's like art: each wrestler takes a little bit from their favorite, because after all, there's no better recipe for success than to imitate the best.

Every wrestler has to have a base, has to start somewhere, and with a few exceptions that starting point is often imitation. There are wrestlers who try to be the second coming of their personal favorites, but with a personal touch added: Chris Benoit is the obvious example, stating flat-out that he wanted to be the new Dynamite Kid; Dragon Kid seems to be in the same vein for Rey Mysterio (I wouldn't say that if Kid didn't use the Bermuda Triangle in addition to a very Rey-like move arsenal). Then there are patchwork wrestlers like Bryan Danielson and CM Punk, taking moves from any wrestler that they loved and putting them together in a logical manner for their own movesets. Then there are the stylistic imitators like the Rock or Samoa Joe, who do what they can to copy the spirit (and often, but not always, the moves) of a previous success story (Rock from Hulk Hogan, Joe from the Japanese style). Then there are the wrestlers who try to be original with whatever talent they have: Jack Evans with his gymnastic ability, Shingo Takagi with his strength, Kurt Angle with his amateur expertise.

But then there are the wrestlers who try to be out-and-out remakes of originals. Dan Maff stuck out to me as a blatant rip-off of Kenta Kobashi. He took Kobashi's arsenal, move for move, without any kind of flair beyond a penchant for no-selling chops and being a "tough street guy." Maff took the Half-Nelson Suplexes, the Burning Hammer, the big Lariats, the chops, the Head Drops 'R' Us style...it must have been with a supreme effort that he didn't take the Burning Sword as well. Maff brought nothing new to Kobashi's moves, and never even mixed up the Kobashi imitation with anything memorable.

There is a fine line. That line is crossed when somebody takes nothing but the moves, doesn't expand on it one bit, and re-enacts another wrestler's matches without an ounce of the soul the original put into his work. If there is anything good about Dan Maff as a wrestler, it's that the comparison between him and Kenta Kobashi shows clearly that it's not the moves, but the passion, psychology, selling, and drama of a match that contribute to the quality.

As for BJ Whitmer...he's come a ways from being the Jun Akiyama wannabe he was. He's found a niche in hardcore brawling, a style to work with, a wider moveset, and nothing left of his Akiyama-tude except for some Exploders and a finisher. He certainly doesn't take the Wrist-Clutch Fisherman Buster or the jumping knees or any of Akiyama's other signatures outside the Exploder usage/over-usage.

You said it much better than I could have. That's what I was thinking exactly to the point. I wasn't whining about American wrestlers taking moves from Japan, I already stated that's usually the norm. Maff tried to rip Kobashi's entire style, like this guy said, and that is when it bothers me.

Borrowing a move here and there doesn't bother me. Thanks for elaborating for me, hardcorehick.

[HMARK Center]

flaminghalo said:

skiller said:

Does anyone know what really happened between Homicide and Maff?

Nobody knows for sure. Homicide himself has said he can't discuss it at the moment due to legal stuff, but that alone shows how serious it if. Needless to say Maff did something BAD, something that Homicide considered a complete betrayal. Rumours persist that it involved a member of Homicide's family, the name most often coming up his UNDER-AGE DAUGHTER. But these are rumours and thats all. All anyone knows is Maff did something bad enough to be blackballed from the entire industry and anyone who does know is keeping it quiet. Homicide said he'd talk about it once the legal stuff was finished so we might someday find out. But for now its just one of lifes many mysteries.

Actually, I may be wrong, but I thought the rumor was that it was 'Cide's little, and yes, underaged, sister...no idea if I'm right here, but I thought he had a son, but no daughter.

Speaking on Whitmer, good GOD, he's come a long way. The CZW feud made his career, and he's running with the oppurtunity. His match with Jacobs on 11/25 was absolutely brutal.