mrbananagrabber
King Koopa
Paul Heyman's unofficial joke writer
Posts: 11,825
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Post by mrbananagrabber on Dec 21, 2013 17:21:59 GMT -5
First of all, getting rid of guys like Chavo is a good move. Bringing in new guys and creating your own star instead of relying on former glories (EC3) is an even better one.
And I think it's where TNA need to be in 2014. Trading on the past hadn't worked and has cost them money. And that's why instead of trying to be WWE, they should look closely at NXT and why it works so well.
NXT must cost very little to make, yet it's easily the best wrestling show on TV. They take young guys we've never heard of and creates stars - Langston and the Wyatt's this year among others.
So why can't TNA do the same? Gradually faze out older more expensive guys and bring in younger guys, create quirky characters (Enzo, Breeze) and follow the KISS motto of keeping it simple, stupid.
How hard could that be?
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Brood Lone Wolf Funker
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 62,404
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Dec 21, 2013 17:26:02 GMT -5
But the problem is that NXT is a developmental league not a major promotion like TNA is trying to do. Also WWE has the performance center to allow for these developments, OVW and TNA no longer work together so they don't have a developmental league anymore. TNA needs to focus on better writing, allowing moments to set in instead of ADD jumps, stories that don't take 18 months to explain, not keep wrestlers who are either past their prime or getting there, keep focus on building future stars like I was originally excited for Samuel Shaw but I almost forgot he existed
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Paco
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,145
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Post by Paco on Dec 21, 2013 17:34:24 GMT -5
EC3 had a former glory? You're reaching. Dude's a new star. Having a cup of coffee in WWE that virtually no one remembers shouldn't brand you. He wasn't even introduced as "He was Derrick Bateman in the WWE! What is he doing here?" (TM TNA).
Sorry but I hate the "he was in WWE so TNA shouldn't pick them up" line of thinking. If the guy has potential and is still young, WWE's loss should be TNA's gain.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Dec 21, 2013 17:45:08 GMT -5
EC3 had a former glory? You're reaching. Dude's a new star. Having a cup of coffee in WWE that virtually no one remembers shouldn't brand you. He wasn't even introduced as "He was Derrick Bateman in the WWE! What is he doing here?" (TM TNA). Sorry but I hate the "he was in WWE so TNA shouldn't pick them up" line of thinking. If the guy has potential and is still young, WWE's loss should be TNA's gain. I'm pretty certain that's the exact point OP was trying to make.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Dec 21, 2013 17:51:07 GMT -5
Taking this as a launching point for something else entirely, I'd say if TNA stuck with the booking philosophy that saw them from late-'11 to mid-'12, it would finally be paying off around now-to-mid-'14. Looking at specifically:
The Roode/Storm stuff, reinvigorated Joe and the TV title business, a well put-together BFG series, the Aries ascension, well, the A&8s business before it became a drawn-out shell, and hell, even the Lynch/AJ schmozz finally rang of a product that was giving you reasons to cheer and treat its talent as stars, as opposed to the auld adage of 'he's a star because of time spent/stuff achieved in X company'. It just felt wholly its own for the first time since its inception.
Yes, we got smatterings of it in the past, with the X division, Christian become a main-eventer et al, but it was never as consistent a product as it was in that 6-9 month window.
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Paco
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,145
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Post by Paco on Dec 21, 2013 18:10:42 GMT -5
EC3 had a former glory? You're reaching. Dude's a new star. Having a cup of coffee in WWE that virtually no one remembers shouldn't brand you. He wasn't even introduced as "He was Derrick Bateman in the WWE! What is he doing here?" (TM TNA). Sorry but I hate the "he was in WWE so TNA shouldn't pick them up" line of thinking. If the guy has potential and is still young, WWE's loss should be TNA's gain. I'm pretty certain that's the exact point OP was trying to make. Oh man...I think I read that in the wrong way then. Sorry OP
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Square
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Official Ambassador
Grand Poobah of Scavenger Hunts 2011
Square-Because he looks good at all the right angles.
Posts: 18,701
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Post by Square on Dec 21, 2013 18:39:09 GMT -5
If you look at the history of TNA their best imports don't come from the WWE, they come from ROH. If I was a Carter I would be looking the ROH and indy stars to bring in. Drake Younger could be a perfect fit for them
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 21, 2013 19:11:57 GMT -5
If you look at the history of TNA their best imports don't come from the WWE, they come from ROH. If I was a Carter I would be looking the ROH and indy stars to bring in. Drake Younger could be a perfect fit for them TNA and ROH used to have a good, working relationship and did talent exchanges regularly. But the Feinstein incident spelled doom for the working agreement. And TNA has a problem convincing a ROH guy to take a chance with their career and wrestling for them. For every Austin Aries, there is a Joey Ryan and Young Bucks. Outside of a forgettable X Division title run, Kenny King barely done anything of note. It all comes down to scouting out the best talent out there and using them to their potential. TNA has to look outside of the box and seek them out. They need to be watching Youtube videos and wrestling dvds everyday. And once they sign them, use in ways they can grow into superstars. If anything, TNA should had used OVW like NXT. A number of folks go there and weren't getting better. Lei'd Tapa is still green as she was before she went there. Same for Rob Terry. Crimson actually improved on the mic and in ring yet TNA still got rid of him. Jesse got better also but hasn't been put in a position to really show it off. TNA should had been more hands on with OVW instead of treating it like their red headed stepchild. 3/4ths of the Gut Check winners got fired and the participants didn't get callback. Velez was the only who got a second shot and still didn't get hired. Jay Bradley did work the BFG Series but he was this year's jobber fodder. Basically TNA needs to overhaul their talent scouting, training, and development.
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on Dec 21, 2013 19:27:29 GMT -5
Matt Morgan would think NXT took his gimmick.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 21, 2013 19:29:55 GMT -5
If you look at the history of TNA their best imports don't come from the WWE, they come from ROH. If I was a Carter I would be looking the ROH and indy stars to bring in. Drake Younger could be a perfect fit for them But that's also the same problem as a whole. Big indy names and WWE castoffs share the same issue: They're already gestated. You can skimp on a storyline for a castoff or an indy guy, simply because the whole point is "[X] IS IN TNA!". That's a weak thing, because building a promotion around that concept invariably leads to a promotion solely built around "DREAM MATCHES"- and that MIGHT WORK, once or twice for some Pay-Per-Views, but once the dream matches have happened, you have to have something more there to keep people excited once that match has been done to keep people wanting to see more of it. TNA's doing much better now (EC3 being his own man, outside of Derrick Bateman is a good thing- and they're developing new gimmicks for in-house guys to make them stars)- and that's the only way TNA can really rise.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 23:17:22 GMT -5
TNA needs to cut the crap. They clearly think they can just stumble on a great angle or faction and their ratings will sore. It isn't going to happen. They need to loose that nonsense and earn it.
Years on no BS, solid wrestling with small storylines to enhance the matches. Rebuild the X-Division and Knockouts while keeping the main roster going. No more wasting money on WWE cast offs or bring in an 80's or 90's guy for a cheap run.
The NXT template is actually a great idea.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2013 23:45:37 GMT -5
Basically TNA needs to play moneyball, bring guys in for cheap and then mold them into actual stars, and then if they really get over and want to try their hand in the WWE let them. It worked for the Oakland A's. Pretty much the ECW concept of finding/creating new stars, bringing in castoffs that are hungry and want to prove themselves and go from there.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Dec 22, 2013 0:09:21 GMT -5
Basically TNA needs to play moneyball, bring guys in for cheap and then mold them into actual stars, and then if they really get over and want to try their hand in the WWE let them. It worked for the Oakland A's. Pretty much the ECW concept of finding/creating new stars, bringing in castoffs that are hungry and want to prove themselves and go from there. That the thing it worked to a point for Oakland outside they didn't win the title. But the idea does work in finding there own stars. But the issue is Example AJ Styles is keeping the stars. That what I hate when people talk about TNA is allow them to go to the WWE or allowing someone to go because they "Done everything they could do". You think the WWE would let Cena just walk because he "done everything he can do in the WWE?" Hell no they wouldn't so why should TNA do it? That is why TNA will never grow because fans look at them this way. If I was TNA I would try and get my hands of the next group of new stars. You see we know internet darings seemed to work well in the WWE see Punk and Bryan success. What TNA should do is bet the WWE to the punch on getting that next group. They should be pushing Aries and Joe as such now. Now they should really find away to sign Adam Cole for example but he is the next break out star IMO.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 22, 2013 2:17:02 GMT -5
Basically TNA needs to play moneyball, bring guys in for cheap and then mold them into actual stars, and then if they really get over and want to try their hand in the WWE let them. It worked for the Oakland A's. Pretty much the ECW concept of finding/creating new stars, bringing in castoffs that are hungry and want to prove themselves and go from there. That the thing it worked to a point for Oakland outside they didn't win the title. But the idea does work in finding there own stars. But the issue is Example AJ Styles is keeping the stars. That what I hate when people talk about TNA is allow them to go to the WWE or allowing someone to go because they "Done everything they could do". You think the WWE would let Cena just walk because he "done everything he can do in the WWE?" Hell no they wouldn't so why should TNA do it? That is why TNA will never grow because fans look at them this way. If I was TNA I would try and get my hands of the next group of new stars. You see we know internet darings seemed to work well in the WWE see Punk and Bryan success. What TNA should do is bet the WWE to the punch on getting that next group. They should be pushing Aries and Joe as such now. Now they should really find away to sign Adam Cole for example but he is the next break out star IMO. TNA at this point can't afford to keep nor getting in a bidding war when a guy becomes a valued commodity and whose worth is going to cost them more money they can afford. Pro teams deal with it all the time. Either pay for the talent or let them go and get a replacement who call fill that spot. It's telling when a wrestler rather take a NXT contract for 35,000 a year over going to TNA. Even guys who got turned down by WWE rather stay independent than taking a chance with them. There are people who want to come in but TNA needs to do a better job of scouting them. You can't tell me Rockstar Spud was the best UK talent out there for them to pick up.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Dec 22, 2013 2:44:37 GMT -5
One thing NXT is doing, and WWE is doing, that TNA has been incredibly weak with, is building gimmicks.
TNA seems to want to rely on personality traits: Daniels is funny and snarky, Aries is arrogant, Eric Young is goofy/stupid. Those are character traits, they aren't characters.
Bully Ray has a gimmick. Abyss has a gimmick. James Storm has a gimmick. But most of the people that TNA has brought in or tried to push into major roles in the last few years (who didn't arrive with a full-blown identity, a la Jeff Hardy), apart from EC3, it seems like their only thing is "oh he's a badass" -- Gunner, Samoa Joe, Roode. Etc., etc.
Compare that to Fandango, the Shield, the Wyatts. All relatively recent call-ups to WWE, all of whom arrived with full-blown identites that were conveyed from the moment they arrived. Even if you don't like Del Rio, at least he came in as more than "well, he's Mexican and he's a real badass."
Everybody loves AJ, but tell me who the heck he was. "Home-grown TNA talent" isn't a gimmick, it's a line on a resume. You can certainly cite exceptions -- I guess Xema Ion or Rockstar Spud could be said to have gimmicks, but I'll be damned if I can articulate what they are from the times that I have seen them. Again, they are more personalities than characters.
Compare that to original ECW: watch it for one hour and you know exaclty what Sandman is all about, what Raven is all about, that the Franchise is the Franchise and Sabu is some kind of wildman, so on and so on. Watch TNA for a month and tell me who stands for what.
Get rid of 80 percent of the backstage-hidden-camera-catches-what-they-don't-want-you-to-see drama crap and tell me who these people are so I have a reason to care about them. I'd rather see stock 1980s cartoon characters than most of what I see on TNA -- give me Village People/Spice Girl identities like "he's an Indian and he's a cowboy and he's a cop and he's an astronaut" and I'd at least have something to hang my hat on.
This, to me, is TNA's greatest weakness and greatest challenge.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 3:18:50 GMT -5
That the thing it worked to a point for Oakland outside they didn't win the title. But the idea does work in finding there own stars. But the issue is Example AJ Styles is keeping the stars. That what I hate when people talk about TNA is allow them to go to the WWE or allowing someone to go because they "Done everything they could do". You think the WWE would let Cena just walk because he "done everything he can do in the WWE?" Hell no they wouldn't so why should TNA do it? That is why TNA will never grow because fans look at them this way. If I was TNA I would try and get my hands of the next group of new stars. You see we know internet darings seemed to work well in the WWE see Punk and Bryan success. What TNA should do is bet the WWE to the punch on getting that next group. They should be pushing Aries and Joe as such now. Now they should really find away to sign Adam Cole for example but he is the next break out star IMO. TNA at this point can't afford to keep nor getting in a bidding war when a guy becomes a valued commodity and whose worth is going to cost them more money they can afford. Pro teams deal with it all the time. Either pay for the talent or let them go and get a replacement who call fill that spot. It's telling when a wrestler rather take a NXT contract for 35,000 a year over going to TNA. Even guys who got turned down by WWE rather stay independent than taking a chance with them. There are people who want to come in but TNA needs to do a better job of scouting them. You can't tell me Rockstar Spud was the best UK talent out there for them to pick up. I have to agree here. TNA can't afford to get into a bidding war with WWE. They just don't have the money. Besides if they create the talent and build him/her (if Her I doubt they would loose her to WWE's Diva BS) They could release them to WWE. With the way WWE books and all the ego crap the young wrestler will have to go through before they even get a mid card spot, TNA would most likely get them back fairly quickly for less money.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 4:43:07 GMT -5
They really need to rebuild their rep in terms of being a quality place for up-and-coming stars to gain more exposure and make a name for themselves. Look at Kenny King, he took a big chance and jumped to TNA, and they have barely used the guy. Austin Aries got over like mad and got a justified main-event push, but they've backed off to the point where he's not a big part of things as of late, for whatever reason. WWE's been on a big indy kick, but it's showing signs of slowing down. TNA can step in and grab that top indy talent that isn't fitting with WWE, like Chris Hero. They run into trouble though, as there seems to be a perception that going to TNA hurts your shot at being in WWE. Thus, TNA needs to look more like the land of opportunity, and a big part of that is better booking/writing. Talent has to believe that TNA is a place that A. they can make good money and B. their skills can be utilized properly.
As far as NXT being a blueprint, completely agree in that they need to focus on a streamlined, back-to-basics approach to booking wrestling. NXT is a 1 hour show, which makes it easier for them, but they've got enough over talent that they could pull off a 2 hour show no problem. NXT doens't have any "take over NXT!" power stables or overly meddling authority figures, it's all about the talent/characters trying to reach their highest ground and their personal beefs along the way. This approach could improve things in the sense of TNA seeming like a vibrant place where there's a real opportunity to make something of yourself. Cutting through all the bs is a great place to start.
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SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
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Post by SOR on Dec 22, 2013 12:44:23 GMT -5
People always say this type of thing and it's very easy to say it but a lot harder to do it.
First of all, TNA is an international promotion which means you can't just fire their bread and butter guys like Sting, Hardy, Angle etc and replace them with independent guys. So many people would tune out entirely and TNA would lose popularity and ultimately money. Guys like Roode, Daniels, Joe etc are the ones who need to be replaced by rising independent stars.
Second of all, It's a lot harder to find good talent then you guys think. A lot of you have the "Sign good wrestlers" mentality but that doesn't work for an international company. TNA is looking for guys with a look, guys who can work and guys who can be entertaining week in and week out and ultimately draw people to watch or pay to see them. Being a "good wrestler" isn't going to get you that.
Thirdly, A lot of you seem to have the mentality of "TNA should be looking to indy darlings" but again, it isn't viable. The reason? Lets hypothetically say Chris Hero is making 60,000 dollars a year for everything he does from booking fee to seminar to dvd cut to whatever. lets say TNA approach him and ask what he wants to sign with them. What do you think is going to happen? Hero is going to ask for probably around 90,000 a year if not more so he can keep the same lifestyle.
Now think about this, Hero probably wants a 3 year deal and TNA would want him for that as well. That 90,000? It's suddenly a contract worth 270,000 dollars. TNA signs Hero, the smarks rejoice but lets say things don't work out and Hero doesn't get over with a TV audience and he flops. Then what? Then TNA has wasted almost a quarter of a million dollars on a talent that nobody cares for.
That's the situation with most of these indy darlings. They're big enough deals to make big money on the indies so they want a lot to sign exclusively with a company. They're unproven at a national level though so it's a huge risk.
As for my opinion on this:
TNA needs to focus on WWE rejects and complete unknowns. WWE rejects like Bateman don't have other options and aren't big enough deals to work indy dates week to week so they're going to sign for a lot less then a guy who is making 1000-1500 working all the top indies. These guys already have training from the best company in the world, they know how to work the cameras, the audience etc etc so go with them.
As for the unknowns, TNA should send a scout out to scout completely obscure independents. I am talking about your local flea market wrestling card. If you see a guy with some potential and a great look then sign him to a miniscule deal and work with him. Ultimately these guys should be in their 20's.
Apart from that of course TNA should remain on the look out for big releases from the WWE but WWE is generally holding onto their talent these days so that is definitely easier said then done.
Oh and as for NXT, the reason they can attract all this great talent is because they are WWE. Everybody there wants to main event WrestleMania and get those 750,000 dollar paydays. Nobody in the indies dreams about working a Bound For Glory main event or anything like that so TNA needs to stick with the desperate workers whilst WWE can cherry pick the very best in the world.
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Post by austinariesfan88 on Dec 22, 2013 14:08:18 GMT -5
I always thought TNA should sign guys from ROH, PWG, Chikara, etc and give them a chance to shine on national television, I think guys like Chuck Taylor, Matt Cross, Johnny Gargano would do wonders for the X-Division.
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Dec 22, 2013 17:58:38 GMT -5
Figured that TNA should hire guys that NXT has let go -- they are usually way more polished than other indy stars and ready for TV. They can use them as an unofficial developmental
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