Cry Baby
Bubba Ho-Tep
"I got all the numbers!"
Posts: 646
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Post by Cry Baby on Dec 23, 2013 13:14:02 GMT -5
My problem with it all is I find the heel character's generally more enjoyable. From heel Ziggler, to The Shield to Sandow - their characters are just more enjoyable than most of the generic faces. Kofi doesn't excite me, face Cody doesn't and now face Ziggler is boring to me. I just can't get behind them. Especially with dickhead faces - like Sheamus and Cena who insult everyone and make gay jokes, but apparently I'm supposed to cheer them.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 13:19:48 GMT -5
The WWE's concept of heels and faces is outdated and archaic.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 23, 2013 13:26:56 GMT -5
Bo Dallas, the right kind of heel right now. I appreciate that he's entertaining, but I want to see him lose because he's a dweeb. The Shield, I think they're awesome, but I want to see them lose because they're always a step ahead and beating people that I actually do like. Cheering/booing is a visceral thing. Kayfabe is so dead, and WWE takes it further by presenting things in a "who gives a shit" fashion a lot of the time. I don't think it's about understanding, 20 years ago you didn't have to think "okay this guy is bad and I understand that, I will boo." The booking and presentation just made you feel that way. Yep, of all people Bo bloody Dallas is the best heel around today, he's entertaining so doesn't get "go away heat" but is such a dweeb that he doesn't do anything cool enough to get cheered. He's what a heel should be, you want to see him get beat (as opposed to not wanting to see him at all) and you love to hate him. The Shield are an interesting case, people clearly like them but and you'd think they'd be the sort of stable that would get cheered eventually but they've managed to remain heels for over a year. I think that's largely due to the way WWE has booked them, hopefully they can take the lessons learned from that stable and apply it to other heels. You don't want a situation where a heel is getting increasingly popular and is paired with a face that is struggling but it's something WWE keep doing, it was successful with Cena and his 50/50(ish) reactions but it undermines most people. The big problem with Bo Dallas as the typical heel, however, is that he's an example of the opposite side of the coin. Dallas didn't do any one thing that was particularly heelish to turn his back on the fans in NXT- on the contrary, he's one of the few heels where you can truly say the FANS turned their backs on HIM. It's the counterpoint to the argument of heels: Faces can be one of two points [albeit far less complicated than the heel dynamic:] 1- I enjoy this babyface. I buy into them as a hero. I will cheer them. 2- I don't enjoy this babyface. I'm not buying it. I will consider them a heel and boo them. This is the reason, even if Bo Dallas is awesome and a great heel right now, I wouldn't say he's the best one around right now: We know that the NXT fanbase is a bizarro world who'll cheer whoever they want and boo whoever they want. As such, saying Bo Dallas is an incredible heel- when his heel turn boiled down to "he was a really, really, REALLY ineffective babyface who the crowd just refused to take to, until finally NXT waved the white flag and said "we give- you want him as a bad guy bad enough, he's a bad guy", that doesn't inherently say "Bo Dallas is a great heel".
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 13:31:50 GMT -5
There are so many face and heel turns that it's almost pointless to even bother booing someone that you liked a week ago. Combine that with the WWE not really having/letting guys go all out to try to truly be hated, they want to keep everyone popular enough to continue to move merch and not offend anyone in their sponsors or fanbase which only leads to guys becoming the 'cool heel', and the culture shift in all forms of entertainment where most heroes are more or less anti-hero's with obvious flaws and most villains are written as the character that gets all of the cool lines. Add all of that up and modern WWE heels don't stand much of a chance.
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Post by Wrestling Curmudgeon on Dec 23, 2013 13:37:54 GMT -5
No, they are not understood, because they are foreign, hate America, and I can't understand them. Therefore, I boo.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Dec 23, 2013 15:06:20 GMT -5
it's nothing new. Ted Dibiase was my favorite wrestler as a kid.
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Post by Piccolo on Dec 23, 2013 16:48:27 GMT -5
Is it the case that we, despite taking pride in how 'smart' we are these days have lost sight of the fundamental fact we're not supposed to like heels and we somehow cannot differentiate between disliking a character and thinking "I dislike the character, therefore I must dislike him and think he's rubbish". No one takes pride in how smart they are. There's nothing to be smart about. It's all out in the open now... there are no secrets. John Cena talked about a heel persona on Monday Night Raw. Everyone knows the wrestlers are acting out roles. The ones I see taking pride in how they watch are the ones who claim to react correctly, and cast everyone else as reacting incorrectly. Ie, they seem to believe they're also actors in the play, and the whole thing would crumble if they don't provide the correct responses and hold the line against those awful other fans who are ruining everything by reacting in a genuine way. But the fact is, arts and entertainment evolve. No one in the show keeps kayfabe outside of the show, and they only keep it in the show maybe 95% of the time (less than your average scripted comedy). So what WWE is now is a show with characters, and we enjoy their performances or we don't. It's a different animal now. That's not intrinsically wrong or bad; it's just an evolution.
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 23, 2013 17:10:59 GMT -5
Babyfaces should be booked where they always have at least a chance to win a fair fight.
Heels should be booed because they take shortcuts by cheating or attacking people because they want to win by any means necessary. Monsters are the exception and they are generally there to do the bidding of their heelish manager.
The backwards booking today actually had Randy Orton the heel, proving the babyface John Cena wrong by getting a relatively clean win in a unification match. Yes, the handcuffs, but it was an anything goes match.
Current WWE is just a manifestation of years of ECW/Hardcore, NWO/DX type factions that were booked with a ton more detail than the babyfaces fighting them, & the insatiable need to "swerve" fans instead of listen to them that we've experienced over the last 15+ years.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 23, 2013 17:26:03 GMT -5
I don't recognise the difference between faces and heels for the most part.
They all just strike me as being douches.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 23, 2013 17:33:40 GMT -5
Is it the case that we, despite taking pride in how 'smart' we are these days have lost sight of the fundamental fact we're not supposed to like heels and we somehow cannot differentiate between disliking a character and thinking "I dislike the character, therefore I must dislike him and think he's rubbish". No one takes pride in how smart they are. There's nothing to be smart about. It's all out in the open now... there are no secrets. John Cena talked about a heel persona on Monday Night Raw. Everyone knows the wrestlers are acting out roles. The ones I see taking pride in how they watch are the ones who claim to react correctly, and cast everyone else as reacting incorrectly. Ie, they seem to believe they're also actors in the play, and the whole thing would crumble if they don't provide the correct responses and hold the line against those awful other fans who are ruining everything by reacting in a genuine way. But the fact is, arts and entertainment evolve. No one in the show keeps kayfabe outside of the show, and they only keep it in the show maybe 95% of the time (less than your average scripted comedy). So what WWE is now is a show with characters, and we enjoy their performances or we don't. It's a different animal now. That's not intrinsically wrong or bad; it's just an evolution. The problem though, is that WWE's target fanbase is predisposed to go against the evolution of the face/heel dynamic as well. Everyone hated it when Stephanie McMahon said she was going for Team Edward/Team Jacob for the Rock/Cena match because "F*** TWILIGHT!"- but that IS the next evolution of face/heel (and indeed- whenever John Cena's put up against a "smark darling", that's exactly the concept done just right). Even if the name is hard to accept for Team Edward/Team Jacob, the basis is the future of the face/heel dynamic, boiling down to "Here's the two people. Here's this one's side, here's this one's side. Who's side are YOU on?"
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