SOR
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Post by SOR on Dec 31, 2013 14:26:06 GMT -5
You're right, Robocop was as much of a draw as Snookie. It's funny you mention Rodman, he was a draw, he got WCW mainstream press. Hell, Go to YouTube and you can see Rodman and Hogan appearing on Leno, Howard Stern and other big shows from the 90's. WWE has tons of failed celebs with the Guest Host idea. Federline got them no mainstream press and all the other smaller celebrities they used never got them much press at all. Arquette got WCW press, Leno got them press, Rodman got them press, Malone got them press, Hell, even that Chef who joined the nWo got them press. Yup I forgot about the RAW guest hosts...or I blocked them out due to trauma. 100% right about that. But getting press does not equal buys or ratings.(The only PPV that did big numbers was Hogan/Rodman vs Page/Malone. Everything else tanked) Why didn't Drew Carey win the Royal Rumble? Because it was not worth a paragraph in USA today. The entire point of using celebrities is for press though. Nobody is paying to see celebrities fight even out of curiosity unless it's like a Rodman/Malone situation where the teams they play for have rivalries and they're legitimate athletes. Look at it like this though, Hogan, Bischoff, DDP and Leno all appeared on Leno's tonight show. It was a pretty big show at that point so lets estimate that a commercial is around the 6000 dollar mark per minute. There was about 10 minutes of Hogan, DDP, Leno and Bischoff on The Tonight Show. That's 60,000 dollars worth of advertising. I assume they paid Jay probably 10-15 thousand to come and do the match but they got 60,000 dollars of advertising from the angle they did alone. Jay probably mentioned it the week after it happened and they got mainstream press. All up that would probably run around the hundred thousand dollar mark. It was smart to use a guy like Jay even if he was terrible in ring because ultimately they got about 80,000 dollars of free advertising. That's the hook there. Nobody wants to see Leno get his ass kicked but maybe they tune into his show and say "Well this looks really interesting" and they tune into Nitro or Thunder to see more. That's the point of using most of these guys.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 14:39:17 GMT -5
Yup I forgot about the RAW guest hosts...or I blocked them out due to trauma. 100% right about that. But getting press does not equal buys or ratings.(The only PPV that did big numbers was Hogan/Rodman vs Page/Malone. Everything else tanked) Why didn't Drew Carey win the Royal Rumble? Because it was not worth a paragraph in USA today. The entire point of using celebrities is for press though. Nobody is paying to see celebrities fight even out of curiosity unless it's like a Rodman/Malone situation where the teams they play for have rivalries and they're legitimate athletes. Look at it like this though, Hogan, Bischoff, DDP and Leno all appeared on Leno's tonight show. It was a pretty big show at that point so lets estimate that a commercial is around the 6000 dollar mark per minute. There was about 10 minutes of Hogan, DDP, Leno and Bischoff on The Tonight Show. That's 60,000 dollars worth of advertising. I assume they paid Jay probably 10-15 thousand to come and do the match but they got 60,000 dollars of advertising from the angle they did alone. Jay probably mentioned it the week after it happened and they got mainstream press. All up that would probably run around the hundred thousand dollar mark. It was smart to use a guy like Jay even if he was terrible in ring because ultimately they got about 80,000 dollars of free advertising. That's the hook there. Nobody wants to see Leno get his ass kicked but maybe they tune into his show and say "Well this looks really interesting" and they tune into Nitro or Thunder to see more. That's the point of using most of these guys. What press though? WWE's guest hosts did get some press. Key word being "some". Same with WCW's celebrities. But when you actually look at the celebrities who changed wrestling with any kind of significance, all of them were associated with the WWF. Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, Donald Trump, Mike Tyson. WCW's celebrities gave them a small bump at most and several of them actually harmed WCW (KISS, Master P). I'm sorry but when you look at the FACTS (buyrates, attendance) your argument has no legs to stand on.
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SOR
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Post by SOR on Dec 31, 2013 14:58:01 GMT -5
The entire point of using celebrities is for press though. Nobody is paying to see celebrities fight even out of curiosity unless it's like a Rodman/Malone situation where the teams they play for have rivalries and they're legitimate athletes. Look at it like this though, Hogan, Bischoff, DDP and Leno all appeared on Leno's tonight show. It was a pretty big show at that point so lets estimate that a commercial is around the 6000 dollar mark per minute. There was about 10 minutes of Hogan, DDP, Leno and Bischoff on The Tonight Show. That's 60,000 dollars worth of advertising. I assume they paid Jay probably 10-15 thousand to come and do the match but they got 60,000 dollars of advertising from the angle they did alone. Jay probably mentioned it the week after it happened and they got mainstream press. All up that would probably run around the hundred thousand dollar mark. It was smart to use a guy like Jay even if he was terrible in ring because ultimately they got about 80,000 dollars of free advertising. That's the hook there. Nobody wants to see Leno get his ass kicked but maybe they tune into his show and say "Well this looks really interesting" and they tune into Nitro or Thunder to see more. That's the point of using most of these guys. What press though? WWE's guest hosts did get some press. Key word being "some". Same with WCW's celebrities. But when you actually look at the celebrities who changed wrestling with any kind of significance, all of them were associated with the WWF. Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, Donald Trump, Mike Tyson. WCW's celebrities gave them a small bump at most and several of them actually harmed WCW (KISS, Master P). I'm sorry but when you look at the FACTS (buyrates, attendance) your argument has no legs to stand on. But...buyrates and attendance don't matter here. You're using a celebrity to advertise your product. A celebrity is more popular than your wrestlers so they're going to get more media appearances, more quotes in the newspaper etc. Rodman got mainstream press. Rodman Vs Malone got mainstream press, Leno feuding with Hulk and Eric got mainstream press, Arquette winning the World Heavyweight Title got mainstream press. It does not really matter if people are buying tickets to see the celebrity perform live because you're trying to market your actual performers by using the celebrity. You can market them throughout the many media outlets that the celebrity is involved in. As for your examples of poor celebrities. KISS were just a one off appearance and at least they were used to try and get someone new over (And KISS Demon was kind of over as well), Master P was a waste but WWE has a thousand of them. The best example of a bad WCW celebrity appearance would be James Brown who came out, danced for 5 minutes and left. The next night it was barely mentioned and after that, never mentioned again. But yeah, in closing you use a celebrity to get your name out there. Not many matches are really going to be big money matches because you know the professional wrestler is going to tear a professional actor or musician to shreds. It's all about the build and WCW were generally good at milking the build for all it was worth and appearing everywhere in the media.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 31, 2013 15:00:10 GMT -5
Yup I forgot about the RAW guest hosts...or I blocked them out due to trauma. 100% right about that. But getting press does not equal buys or ratings.(The only PPV that did big numbers was Hogan/Rodman vs Page/Malone. Everything else tanked) Why didn't Drew Carey win the Royal Rumble? Because it was not worth a paragraph in USA today. The entire point of using celebrities is for press though. Nobody is paying to see celebrities fight even out of curiosity unless it's like a Rodman/Malone situation where the teams they play for have rivalries and they're legitimate athletes. People damn sure tuned in to see what Cyndi Lauper was doing with the WWF, they tuned in to see Mr T fight, they damn sure paid when Mike Tyson was an enforcer because they knew he'd get involved, people damn sure paid to see if Donald Trump would get his head shaved, and they paid to see Floyd Mayweather fight Big Show.
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SOR
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Post by SOR on Dec 31, 2013 15:08:44 GMT -5
The entire point of using celebrities is for press though. Nobody is paying to see celebrities fight even out of curiosity unless it's like a Rodman/Malone situation where the teams they play for have rivalries and they're legitimate athletes. People damn sure tuned in to see what Cyndi Lauper was doing with the WWF, they tuned in to see Mr T fight, they damn sure paid when Mike Tyson was an enforcer because they knew he'd get involved, people damn sure paid to see if Donald Trump would get his head shaved, and they paid to see Floyd Mayweather fight Big Show. Mayweather and Tyson I'll give you. Mr T to an extent as well. Why were these guys draws though? Two are professional fighters who realistically could beat a wrestler and Mr T has always been a big guy. That's why, How many celebrities are out there who are big guys who are willing to get in the ring though? Celebrities should be viewed by all of you as a big commercial. That's what should be judged here. WCW used ICP so whenever ICP did an interview they would mention Nitro and talk about it, same with every celebrity who came into WCW. Most of WWE's celebrity appearances are one off appearances so they never get tons of media attention from them. WCW always did.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 15:29:12 GMT -5
What press though? WWE's guest hosts did get some press. Key word being "some". Same with WCW's celebrities. But when you actually look at the celebrities who changed wrestling with any kind of significance, all of them were associated with the WWF. Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, Donald Trump, Mike Tyson. WCW's celebrities gave them a small bump at most and several of them actually harmed WCW (KISS, Master P). I'm sorry but when you look at the FACTS (buyrates, attendance) your argument has no legs to stand on. But...buyrates and attendance don't matter here. You're using a celebrity to advertise your product. A celebrity is more popular than your wrestlers so they're going to get more media appearances, more quotes in the newspaper etc. Rodman got mainstream press. Rodman Vs Malone got mainstream press, Leno feuding with Hulk and Eric got mainstream press, Arquette winning the World Heavyweight Title got mainstream press. It does not really matter if people are buying tickets to see the celebrity perform live because you're trying to market your actual performers by using the celebrity. You can market them throughout the many media outlets that the celebrity is involved in. As for your examples of poor celebrities. KISS were just a one off appearance and at least they were used to try and get someone new over (And KISS Demon was kind of over as well), Master P was a waste but WWE has a thousand of them. The best example of a bad WCW celebrity appearance would be James Brown who came out, danced for 5 minutes and left. The next night it was barely mentioned and after that, never mentioned again. But yeah, in closing you use a celebrity to get your name out there. Not many matches are really going to be big money matches because you know the professional wrestler is going to tear a professional actor or musician to shreds. It's all about the build and WCW were generally good at milking the build for all it was worth and appearing everywhere in the media. Except buyrates, ratings and attendance do count. That's how you know your company is a success. There's no good having publicity if it doesn't lead to anything. Everyone knows what Blockbuster is, but I'm sure they'd trade all the "publicity" in the world for some customers. Most of WCW's celebrities were as no-name or insignificant as WWE's celebrities. The ones who were famous (Leno, Rodman, Malone) gave WCW SOME attention. That's about it. It's not like WCW suddenly became the hottest thing in the world. By the time most of those guys involvement happened, the WWF (who didn't have any celebrities in PPV matches) were beating them. Yes, KISS was a one off appearance.....that cost WCW money and bombed in the ratings and had no benefit whatsoever. This isn't a debate about whether using celebrities is a good thing, or why you'd use a celebrity. It's about who used celebrities better. And that is unquestionably the WWF/E.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 31, 2013 15:31:08 GMT -5
People damn sure tuned in to see what Cyndi Lauper was doing with the WWF, they tuned in to see Mr T fight, they damn sure paid when Mike Tyson was an enforcer because they knew he'd get involved, people damn sure paid to see if Donald Trump would get his head shaved, and they paid to see Floyd Mayweather fight Big Show. Mayweather and Tyson I'll give you. Mr T to an extent as well. Why were these guys draws though? Two are professional fighters who realistically could beat a wrestler and Mr T has always been a big guy. That's why, How many celebrities are out there who are big guys who are willing to get in the ring though? Celebrities should be viewed by all of you as a big commercial. That's what should be judged here. WCW used ICP so whenever ICP did an interview they would mention Nitro and talk about it, same with every celebrity who came into WCW. Most of WWE's celebrity appearances are one off appearances so they never get tons of media attention from them. WCW always did. Mr T was a huge name in the 80's. Most of y'all probably weren't born at the time, but he was an icon of his time. His appearances and connection with WWF helped put the company into the lexicon of pop culture. He draw big money for WWF. Him hanging with Hulk Hogan made the Hulkster a household name. Same for Tyson. Hottest name in sports showing up to fight the hottest name in pro wrestling, Austin. Just because ICP mentioned WCW doesn't mean they benefited from it. Juggalos didn't flock to WCW because their heroes were wrestling there. WCW ppv and video sells didn't increase from their presence. If anything, ICP gained more from the deal because their video sales increased to the point only WWE videos sold more than them. ICP has a large fringe audience but they did not show up to make it count. WCW celebrities weren't as game changing as you make it because if they were, WCW would still be around and not collecting dust in the WWE video vault.
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rocket
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Post by rocket on Dec 31, 2013 17:10:23 GMT -5
I'm just gonna add this about Tyson. His appearance at Wrestlemania (and on the Raws leading up to it) was the most high-profile thing he did since he bit Evander Holyfield's ear months earlier. And he was banned from boxing for a year because of the bite. So it was a pretty big deal.
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Dec 31, 2013 18:21:34 GMT -5
WWF/E and it isnt even close
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Post by Joe Neglia on Dec 31, 2013 18:48:48 GMT -5
Okay, here's the thing: Name 10 WCW celebrity involvements that actually benefited the company. For WWF, I could easily name off 40 or 50. Yes, could also rattle off a hundred or so failures they had, but under virtually any circumstances, WWE has this one hands down.
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Doctor Of Style
King Koopa
Well, first they love me, and then they don't. Sometimes they do it, and sometimes they won't.
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Dec 31, 2013 18:52:48 GMT -5
What press though? WWE's guest hosts did get some press. Key word being "some". Same with WCW's celebrities. But when you actually look at the celebrities who changed wrestling with any kind of significance, all of them were associated with the WWF. Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, Donald Trump, Mike Tyson. WCW's celebrities gave them a small bump at most and several of them actually harmed WCW (KISS, Master P). I'm sorry but when you look at the FACTS (buyrates, attendance) your argument has no legs to stand on. But...buyrates and attendance don't matter here. You're using a celebrity to advertise your product. A celebrity is more popular than your wrestlers so they're going to get more media appearances, more quotes in the newspaper etc. Rodman got mainstream press. Rodman Vs Malone got mainstream press, Leno feuding with Hulk and Eric got mainstream press, Arquette winning the World Heavyweight Title got mainstream press. It does not really matter if people are buying tickets to see the celebrity perform live because you're trying to market your actual performers by using the celebrity. You can market them throughout the many media outlets that the celebrity is involved in. As for your examples of poor celebrities. KISS were just a one off appearance and at least they were used to try and get someone new over (And KISS Demon was kind of over as well), Master P was a waste but WWE has a thousand of them. The best example of a bad WCW celebrity appearance would be James Brown who came out, danced for 5 minutes and left. The next night it was barely mentioned and after that, never mentioned again. But yeah, in closing you use a celebrity to get your name out there. Not many matches are really going to be big money matches because you know the professional wrestler is going to tear a professional actor or musician to shreds. It's all about the build and WCW were generally good at milking the build for all it was worth and appearing everywhere in the media. The whole point of advertising is to get people to buy your product. If they don't, that ad campaign is a failure.
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Post by Straight Edge Scrotum on Dec 31, 2013 19:02:57 GMT -5
The WWE put Drew Carey into their hall of fame. That's a black mark right there.
That being said, I still voted WWE because the guest host era gave us Wayne Brady eating an RKO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 19:15:36 GMT -5
Lol, WCW did which is why the poll results are so amusing. WCW would use celebrities and most of the time it'd result in some mainstream attention for them. Compare that to WWE who have only had a few celebrities get them strong media attention. They've had a lot of failures.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 31, 2013 21:13:27 GMT -5
Lol, WCW did which is why the poll results are so amusing. WCW would use celebrities and most of the time it'd result in some mainstream attention for them. Compare that to WWE who have only had a few celebrities get them strong media attention. They've had a lot of failures. Why anyone would say WCW used celebrities better is beyond me.
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SOR
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Post by SOR on Dec 31, 2013 22:57:29 GMT -5
Okay, here's the thing: Name 10 WCW celebrity involvements that actually benefited the company. For WWF, I could easily name off 40 or 50. Yes, could also rattle off a hundred or so failures they had, but under virtually any circumstances, WWE has this one hands down. 1. David Arquette (Regardless of what people say he got them mainstream press, Courtney Cox and Kurt Russell were filming vignettes for WCW and he was relatively entertaining on the show also) 2. Jay Leno (as listed above they got free advertisement not only on Jay's show but also in major media outlets throughout the United States) 3. Dennis Rodman (Gave the nWo more of a "bad boy" image and he managed to get them on major shows such as the Leno show, Howard Stern and I imagine all the sports shows covered it at the time as well) 4. Karl Malone (Was coming off an NBA Finals campaign that year and I believe lost out to Rodman and the Bulls. Every sports channel would have been covering this) 5. Mr T (Was still a big name in 94 when he started out in WCW and did well in his limited roles) 6. Will Sasso (Relatively big name within his cult fanbase. This lead to WCW furthering angles on Mad TV and a match on Nitro) 7. Kevin Greene (Current NFL player at the time and was involved in some big angles. This would have lead to media exposure at the time) 8. ICP (Were at their height in the late 90's and would appear in magazines, radio etc discussing WCW. Also were used pretty well and they were okay in ring) 9. Steve McMichael (I think he counts, at least at first when it was fresh. He went onto have a decent career in WCW having successful careers in both NFL and WCW) 10. The Wack Pack (Late 2000 many members of the Wack Pack made appearances in WCW. Beetlejuice made 3 or 4 appearances with the other guys making a couple of appearances as well. Howard talked about this at a time when he was the biggest radio show in the world and was listened to by millions of people. Apart from that, the segments were pretty funny and well done) Honorable mentions to Courtney Cox, Kurt Russell. Shaquille O'Neal and nWo Chef guy who were involved in entertaining television on WCW as well. I'd be interested in reading your 40-50 to be honest. I think WWE probably has around 4-5 celebrities who were used really well.
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Post by nickcave on Dec 31, 2013 23:16:49 GMT -5
SOR I don't know how you can deny that WWF/E used celebrities better when the whole Rock n' Wrestling connection era is the reason wrestling was ever mainstream in the first place. WCW didn't get a cartoon series because of their celebrity involvement or get to host Saturday Night Live.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 23:19:06 GMT -5
I think WWE probably has around 4-5 celebrities who were used really well. And that's all they really needed. Two of the biggest boom periods in WWE history were partially thanks to those handful of well used celebrities. Any successes WCW had with celebrities simply can't compare.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Dec 31, 2013 23:22:19 GMT -5
Okay, here's the thing: Name 10 WCW celebrity involvements that actually benefited the company. For WWF, I could easily name off 40 or 50. Yes, could also rattle off a hundred or so failures they had, but under virtually any circumstances, WWE has this one hands down. 1. David Arquette (Regardless of what people say he got them mainstream press, Courtney Cox and Kurt Russell were filming vignettes for WCW and he was relatively entertaining on the show also) 2. Jay Leno (as listed above they got free advertisement not only on Jay's show but also in major media outlets throughout the United States) 3. Dennis Rodman (Gave the nWo more of a "bad boy" image and he managed to get them on major shows such as the Leno show, Howard Stern and I imagine all the sports shows covered it at the time as well) 4. Karl Malone (Was coming off an NBA Finals campaign that year and I believe lost out to Rodman and the Bulls. Every sports channel would have been covering this) 5. Mr T (Was still a big name in 94 when he started out in WCW and did well in his limited roles) 6. Will Sasso (Relatively big name within his cult fanbase. This lead to WCW furthering angles on Mad TV and a match on Nitro) 7. Kevin Greene (Current NFL player at the time and was involved in some big angles. This would have lead to media exposure at the time) 8. ICP (Were at their height in the late 90's and would appear in magazines, radio etc discussing WCW. Also were used pretty well and they were okay in ring) 9. Steve McMichael (I think he counts, at least at first when it was fresh. He went onto have a decent career in WCW having successful careers in both NFL and WCW) 10. The Wack Pack (Late 2000 many members of the Wack Pack made appearances in WCW. Beetlejuice made 3 or 4 appearances with the other guys making a couple of appearances as well. Howard talked about this at a time when he was the biggest radio show in the world and was listened to by millions of people. Apart from that, the segments were pretty funny and well done) Honorable mentions to Courtney Cox, Kurt Russell. Shaquille O'Neal and nWo Chef guy who were involved in entertaining television on WCW as well. I'd be interested in reading your 40-50 to be honest. I think WWE probably has around 4-5 celebrities who were used really well. Please re-read what I wrote: "that benefited the company." - Arquette did not benefit the company, in fact, his involvement helped drive off a large amount of the viewers. To include Sasso and the Wack Pack for WCW and then turn around and say you can only think of 4-5 that WWF/WWE used well? ICP and Wack Pack? They both had stints in WWF first. Then there's Lauper, Mr. T back when he was actually still popular, Tyson, Pete Rose, Trump, Federline, Chuck Norris, Gov. Ventura, Ali, Pam Anderson, Lawrence Taylor, all of the football players in WM2, Snooki (hate her as a person all you want, she did not embarrass the company in her performance), Robin Leach, Mayweather, Bob Uecker, Bob Barker, Ozzy, Shatner, Drew Carey, Shaq, Motorhead, Motley Crue, Bobbitt (it worked at the time), Jenna Jameson...
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Dec 31, 2013 23:31:20 GMT -5
1. David Arquette (Regardless of what people say he got them mainstream press, Courtney Cox and Kurt Russell were filming vignettes for WCW and he was relatively entertaining on the show also)
Also killed the legitimacy of the World Heavyweight Championship
2. Jay Leno (as listed above they got free advertisement not only on Jay's show but also in major media outlets throughout the United States)
And they made no money from him because his match was at a show where they didn't charge people entrance
3. Dennis Rodman (Gave the nWo more of a "bad boy" image and he managed to get them on major shows such as the Leno show, Howard Stern and I imagine all the sports shows covered it at the time as well)
Pay this although he didn't take his role seriously and turned up shitfaced.
4. Karl Malone (Was coming off an NBA Finals campaign that year and I believe lost out to Rodman and the Bulls. Every sports channel would have been covering this)
Probably their biggest celeb appearance as he seemed like he wanted to be there during his matches
5. Mr T (Was still a big name in 94 when he started out in WCW and did well in his limited roles)
And? WWF did it first and drew massive amounts of business thanks to him
6. Will Sasso (Relatively big name within his cult fanbase. This lead to WCW furthering angles on Mad TV and a match on Nitro)
I legit had to google this because he made no lasting impression and they had to have one of the greatest wrestlers of the era feud with him. Also, WCW didn't promote Harts appearance on MAD TV prior to him attacking Sasso so WCW fans had no idea why this was going on
7. Kevin Greene (Current NFL player at the time and was involved in some big angles. This would have lead to media exposure at the time)
Yeha, who? That's how much of a lasting impression he made. Ooooh, he tagged with former NFL players, Whoop-de-f***ing-do)
8. ICP (Were at their height in the late 90's and would appear in magazines, radio etc discussing WCW. Also were used pretty well and they were okay in ring)
Dude, you can't cite the ICP. They appeared everywhere and the Juggalos would only buy their shit, WCW wouldn't have made very much money off of them.
9. Steve McMichael (I think he counts, at least at first when it was fresh. He went onto have a decent career in WCW having successful careers in both NFL and WCW)
Mongo was a joke throughout his WCW career and would be known as the worst horseman of all time if not for Paul Roma/
10. The Wack Pack (Late 2000 many members of the Wack Pack made appearances in WCW. Beetlejuice made 3 or 4 appearances with the other guys making a couple of appearances as well. Howard talked about this at a time when he was the biggest radio show in the world and was listened to by millions of people. Apart from that, the segments were pretty funny and well done)
WWF also did it first by having some guys appear with The Oddities a few years prior. Once more, something that WWF did first. The only time in WCW Beetlejuice is really known for is being invovled in that f***ing stupid San Francisco 49ers match where he low-blowed Jarrett.
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Post by tekkenguy on Dec 31, 2013 23:33:24 GMT -5
Mongo was a joke throughout his WCW career and would be known as the worst horseman of all time if not for Paul Roma Umm, Mongo was the worst Horseman of all time, period.
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