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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 31, 2013 17:32:08 GMT -5
Ok, he was over with some crowds, but evil Doink is spoken of way more fondly.
I agree with Foley's theory that wrestling is essentially a circus, and it's had plenty of metaphorical clowns that got over as faces- Colt Cabana, Santino, Eric Young, Rikishi before the worst heel turn ever, etc. Doink's problem was that he was a literal, face painted clown with flower squirters and the works, and for a long time people have been conditioned to be distrustful of literal clowns. Joker, Pennywise, etc, the Monster Clown trope was probably pretty ingrained with most of the audience by then (and this was a few years before ICP and their grim subject matter found a major audience).
I guess the only way face Doink could have worked is if he had debuted as a good guy and acknowledged that he was out to defy the bad reputation clowns got.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 31, 2013 18:12:02 GMT -5
I blame the addition of Dink to the gimmick. Face Doink wasn't horrible but was too hokey for the WWF audience at the time. When Dink showed up, he went from mildly amusing to annoying. His matches became forced slapstick instead of organic humor mixed with wrestling. I cheered for Bam Bam to squash him and his midget sidekick during their feud.
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Post by Digital Witness on Dec 31, 2013 19:17:52 GMT -5
I think what helped heel Doink and what sat face Doink back is that you had god damn "Maniac" Matt Borne as heel Doink and he absolutely killed it with the gimmick when not many other wrestlers could even attempt it. Face Doink never stood a chance.
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Post by johnnytightlips on Dec 31, 2013 19:58:41 GMT -5
Even in the theme department heel Doink was better.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 20:32:35 GMT -5
Face Doink failed largely (IMO) because it wasn't Matt Borne.
Borne could've made it legit work for a while, I think. Once you realized it was another person under the makeup (with a worse voice), though, it began to fall apart at the seams very quickly.
Not sure Borne would've lasted long enough to want to work with Dink, though.
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repomark
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Post by repomark on Dec 31, 2013 20:54:58 GMT -5
To be honest I just think that too many people dislike clowns for the character to work as a face. As a heel however it was gold.
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Post by Aceorton on Jan 1, 2014 0:42:00 GMT -5
The clown part was secondary, really. The Doink gimmick, at its core, was mental illness. He was over huge as a heel because he was a dangerous, unpredictable psychopath who blinded people and beat them with prosthetic limbs. Turning the character face immediately limited his shelf life. Initially you're curious to see what happens when he goes up against a heel (Bam Bam), but then what? You can't have a "sick clown" as a babyface, so he becomes a "regular clown," and then there's no point anymore.
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Post by JTG Fan on Jan 1, 2014 0:43:50 GMT -5
Why it didn't work: He was a wrestling clown.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 1, 2014 0:47:33 GMT -5
The clown part was secondary, really. The Doink gimmick, at its core, was mental illness. He was over huge as a heel because he was a dangerous, unpredictable psychopath who blinded people and beat them with prosthetic limbs. Turning the character face immediately limited his shelf life. Initially you're curious to see what happens when he goes up against a heel (Bam Bam), but then what? You can't have a "sick clown" as a babyface, so he becomes a "regular clown," and then there's no point anymore. I dunno what you were watching, I clearly saw him rip off his own arm and beat Crush with it.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jan 1, 2014 0:50:52 GMT -5
It's not so much the face turn that killed Doink as much as it is he seemingly lost his edge. Part of that was no doubt because of Matt Borne leaving, but the fact is that Doink's spectacular antics got him over in the first place. However, once he became a full fledged face, he traded in the prosthetic limbs and car batteries for merely whoopie cushions and a midget clown sidekick. No wonder the audience eventually turned on him.
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Jan 1, 2014 1:06:57 GMT -5
He went from a psycho clown to a comedy act for the kiddies. The kiddies were growing away from wrestling and didn't care anymore. Anyone who thought it was cool when he was a heel now found it childish and stupid and impossible to get behind.
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Glitch
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Post by Glitch on Jan 1, 2014 2:03:45 GMT -5
Because triple h time traveled back to that time and sabotaged his career.
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Post by Digital Witness on Jan 1, 2014 5:38:57 GMT -5
You know, I was thinking about Matt Borne leaving the WWF and going to ECW where he had the "Borne Again" gimmick and I wonder how well that or a variation of that persona would have worked instead of the face turn.
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Jan 1, 2014 6:02:12 GMT -5
It's not so much the face turn that killed Doink as much as it is he seemingly lost his edge. Part of that was no doubt because of Matt Borne leaving, but the fact is that Doink's spectacular antics got him over in the first place. However, once he became a full fledged face, he traded in the prosthetic limbs and car batteries for merely whoopie cushions and a midget clown sidekick. No wonder the audience eventually turned on him. Agreed. Had they gone the Undertaker route and kept his dark edge, only directed at heels instead of faces, it could have been massively over. Supposedly, the change came because an organization representing clowns complained that the character was too scary, and was making it harder for them to entertain kids.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Jan 1, 2014 6:27:54 GMT -5
I say it failed because Doink as a character only worked as a heel and the face turn neutered what got him over in the first place.
That and he become stale as a face very quickly.
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Post by jason1980s on Jan 1, 2014 10:34:23 GMT -5
Borne's face gave off such a sinister look to it without even trying whether he was trying or not. Under the makeup you could see a truly menacing character. Even as Big Josh, there was a WCW magazine where he was giving a heel-like sneer.
I give Ray Liachelli (sp?) a lot of credit though. He was face Doink and he did a great job but the character just wouldn't work after heel Doink had succeeded so much. Around the time of Matt Borne's death I met Ray. Some people on a message board were pissed he was doing the Doink gimmick after Borne's death. Ray is a reliable guy for the autograph signing scene so he was booked for a big time old timers signing. He has just as much right to call himself Doink as Matt Borne did.
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Post by Ecks Ecks Ringout Ecks Ecks on Jan 1, 2014 11:21:56 GMT -5
I think I realized why face Doink flopped Slipped on his own banana peel?
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on Jan 1, 2014 13:46:21 GMT -5
Doink needed to be a heel. Doink needed to be Matt Bourne.
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mizerable
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Post by mizerable on Jan 1, 2014 17:19:05 GMT -5
I think after Survivor Series...in what was one of the stupidest matches I have ever seen, it was pretty clear that Doink wasn't going to last much longer. The addition of Dink was terrible enough, but to have a longass match involving 6 midgets on one of the biggest PPVs a year...yeah it was time to kill the clown. I guess the reasoning was that since they pulled a bait and switch the year before...they were going to piss people off this time.
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Post by jason1980s on Jan 1, 2014 17:25:11 GMT -5
I think after Survivor Series...in what was one of the stupidest matches I have ever seen, it was pretty clear that Doink wasn't going to last much longer. The addition of Dink was terrible enough, but to have a longass match involving 6 midgets on one of the biggest PPVs a year...yeah it was time to kill the clown. I guess the reasoning was that since they pulled a bait and switch the year before...they were going to piss people off this time. To me, the Clowns v. King's Court match showed signed of a thinning roster at a poor point of business. Not many more guys on roster that could have been used. I can only think of Well Dunn, Kwang, Bob Holly (last two on dark match) and Crush (rarely used by this point) of guys who could have been used and it's not like they really would have meant much to the PPV lineup.
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