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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 27, 2014 4:08:53 GMT -5
Mind you, I'm predicting a Wyatt win somehow at Mania, especially since Bryan's probably going to be slotted in the "feel good Mania moment" and Cena/Bray is an upper midcard match. But I have reason to believe Bray won't be damaged even if he gets pinned after an AA and Cena grins his way to the back.
For one thing, this is obviously the beginning of the feud. So even if Cena can get the duke at WMXXX, he's still got plenty of sweating, beatdowns, self doubting and DEPH!s coming his way for a couple more months at least.
The second reason is that the usual roles in Cena feuds have been reversed. John's now the one in the beloved Wile E. Coyote spot, determined to catch that pesky Bray and stop his spreading influence (or what he percieves as spreading influence, but I tend to generally cut wrestling writing a break). Bray seems to be rather smug and insufferably full of himself, totally confident that all his chess pieces are in place and he'll eventually win the game. Those are the same traits Cena has shown against many heels, but now he's on the receiving end, hence why his reactions aren't as split lately because he's the empathetic figure for once.
The biggest misconception about Cena, I think, is this idea that he's not capable of appealing to an older audience the way other top stars did. There's an urban legend that he's allegedly not as charismatic as the prior big names, that he's just naturally polarizing, as if WWE booking him to be a juggernaut isn't the primary reason why he struggles with some crowds (and it is). Even if Bray jobs like Colin Delany from here on out (which I don't see happening), the fact that him and John have gotten fans excited for their Mania match is not only a testament to Wyatt coming into his own as a character, but it should also put that urban legend to rest, IMO. Give Superman a good villain, and Superman ceases to be boring.
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Post by Sumbody Gon' Get Dey Kneelift on Mar 27, 2014 4:16:56 GMT -5
Okay, how does Bray win in defeat though?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 4:18:21 GMT -5
Bray would be fine if he lost to Cena. No one would be harmed losing to Cena at wrestlemania unless it's a squash. He could lose np it wouldn't matter much (feud hasn't been much about winning a wrestling match, what we've seen so far should honestly lead to cena winning except...)
I think Bray he'll win mostly cuz you have all these other faces slotted to win.
I mean you've got
Bryan over HHH
Taker over Lesnar
Bryan winning the title
Shield beating Kane/NAO.
Mania is always babyface time but they don't go ALL faces, gotta have at least 1-2 heels win somewhere in there.
Other reason is I think if Cena won at this particular moment, it'd lead to Bray being cheered more than WWE would like. Cena seems to be exceptionally unpopular atm. Better to have him lose a few coming up to be rejuvenated.
IMO lately Cena is being unreasonably booed. Not the "divided crowd" we're used to, but honest boos. like 3/4 of the crowd boos. If they're not going to turn him heel, probably better for Cena to lose a few to balance that out I think.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 27, 2014 4:20:38 GMT -5
Bray would be fine if he lost to Cena. No one would be harmed losing to Cena at wrestlemania unless it's a squash. He could lose np it wouldn't matter much (feud hasn't been much about winning a wrestling match, what we've seen so far should honestly lead to cena winning except...) I think Bray he'll win mostly cuz you have all these other faces slotted to win. I mean you've got Bryan over HHH Taker over Lesnar Bryan winning the title Shield beating Kane/NAO. Mania is always babyface time but they don't go ALL faces, gotta have at least 1-2 heels win somewhere in there. Other reason is I think if Cena won at this particular moment, it'd lead to Bray being cheered more than WWE would like. Cena seems to be exceptionally unpopular atm. Better to have him lose a few coming up to be rejuvenated. Sure you're not confusing Cena with Batista? He's the one right now being pegged by fans in the "everything wrong with this business" role. |
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Post by slappy on Mar 27, 2014 4:23:07 GMT -5
No such thing as winning in defeat.
If it existed then Sandow would be riding high.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 27, 2014 4:25:39 GMT -5
No such thing as winning in defeat. If it existed then Sandow would be riding high. I'd blame that more on him being stripped of all his interesting traits even before he lost his cash-in. |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Mar 27, 2014 4:26:30 GMT -5
No such thing as winning in defeat. If it existed then Sandow would be riding high. John Cena himself made his debut by winning in defeat. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 4:28:32 GMT -5
Bray would be fine if he lost to Cena. No one would be harmed losing to Cena at wrestlemania unless it's a squash. He could lose np it wouldn't matter much (feud hasn't been much about winning a wrestling match, what we've seen so far should honestly lead to cena winning except...) I think Bray he'll win mostly cuz you have all these other faces slotted to win. I mean you've got Bryan over HHH Taker over Lesnar Bryan winning the title Shield beating Kane/NAO. Mania is always babyface time but they don't go ALL faces, gotta have at least 1-2 heels win somewhere in there. Other reason is I think if Cena won at this particular moment, it'd lead to Bray being cheered more than WWE would like. Cena seems to be exceptionally unpopular atm. Better to have him lose a few coming up to be rejuvenated. Sure you're not confusing Cena with Batista? He's the one right now being pegged by fans in the "everything wrong with this business" role. No I'm really not, Cena is honestly 2nd place to Batista in being overly booed these days. Not full on like Batista of course, but it's heading closer to that territory than it should be and it's not like Cena is squashing people or even doing anything wrong. WWE should make an adjustment because Cena being booed this much as a face is kinda boring, I've always said Cena is at his best when the crowd is truly divided as it used to be, particularly in face/face matches where he plays the pseudo heel. He's getting booed by too many these days and it's gotten kinda dumb. Again, he's not Batista (Who gets booed by 90%) but...booed by 70%? That's about what Cena has been up to recently. I've liked Cena's work in face/face feuds in the past few years and he has done well in those, his face/heel stuff for a bit now has led to crowds cheering the heels in a way that kinda harms the heels more than anything...regardless of who wins. WWE needs to solidify him more because they (and even Cena, when he uses his "ok here we go!" mannerisms during promos) seem to encourage him being booed too much. I'm tired of Cena smirking when the crowd boos him, it just makes more people jump on board. Needs to be one or the other here, turn heel or don't. If he's gonna continue in that style teasing the crowd, then he shouldn't be feuding with heels....cuz the heels are gonna get cheered. |
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Post by slappy on Mar 27, 2014 4:35:53 GMT -5
No such thing as winning in defeat. If it existed then Sandow would be riding high. John Cena himself made his debut by winning in defeat. Because they made a thing out of it. They certainly aren't going to do that for everyone that loses and they certainly can't keep guys from beating top stars and hoping fans will believe they were strong in defeat. What if they did that throughout their history? Had guys who became big 'win in defeat' instead of actually win? What would have happened to Cena and Batista if they had lost at WrestleMania 21? Would the fans still have backed them even though they were strong losers? What if Austin lost to HBK at WM14? |
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Post by Ryushinku on Mar 27, 2014 4:48:21 GMT -5
Considering I think Cena will win this one, I definitely think the objective will be to make Bray look as strong as possible in defeat.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Mar 27, 2014 5:08:15 GMT -5
Look good in defeat... Wrestlemania... Bray gets locked in the STF and passes out without ever submitting?
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Capt Lunatic
Unicron
Buttah in mah ass, lollipops in mah mouth
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Post by Capt Lunatic on Mar 27, 2014 5:23:59 GMT -5
Follow up is key. If Cena wins a hard fought match by the skin of his teeth, then comes out the next night without a smile and talks about how a match like that changes you a little PLUS Bray looks strong in his next feud then mission accomplished.
If Cena wins, comes out all happy and shit, focused on the World title then all is lost.
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67 more
King Koopa
He's just a Sexy Kurt
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Post by 67 more on Mar 27, 2014 5:40:25 GMT -5
I don't think it's possible to "win in defeat" against Cena for as long as he refuses to sell after the bell rings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 5:43:07 GMT -5
John Cena himself made his debut by winning in defeat. Because they made a thing out of it. They certainly aren't going to do that for everyone that loses and they certainly can't keep guys from beating top stars and hoping fans will believe they were strong in defeat. What if they did that throughout their history? Had guys who became big 'win in defeat' instead of actually win? What would have happened to Cena and Batista if they had lost at WrestleMania 21? Would the fans still have backed them even though they were strong losers? What if Austin lost to HBK at WM14? Honestly I think Cena would have been a little better off if he lost at Mania 21. Overbooking that match would have kept it from sucking as much as it did, the Judgment Day match would have been a much better payoff to the feud, and Cena was already getting some boos by the time of Mania 21 probably in part because of how one-sided the JBL feud was in his favor. It really wouldn't have made too much of a difference but having a stronger title win and a couple months less with the title might have negated a bit of the headache that came with his transition to Raw. Anyway, yeah. I don't think Bray needs the Mania win, but he probably should either win it or push Cena completely over the edge in the process of losing and still be the one standing tall at the end if the feud's going to continue. I do think at the point when he either taps out to Cena or loses an I Quit match though, then there's going to be serious damage to the character. Granted, I don't think even winning would do Bray that much good. He's already caught on plenty with the crowd, this feud doesn't really seem to have very much interest behind it (if only judging by how it's pretty consistently seeing ratings drop), and this whole feud just feels forced and lifeless. |
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone.
Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Mar 27, 2014 5:57:21 GMT -5
He's already said that he's willing to die as long as he exposes Cena for what he really is.
All he has to do is push Cena into doing something reprehensible to win the match and he'll earn a moral victory.
Maybe having his goons take out the referee before presenting Cena with a weapon while Bray does his pose on his knees welcoming the beat-down.
Of course Cena isn't exactly above such things anyway so to his fans it's just another Cena win.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 6:02:26 GMT -5
He's already said that he's willing to die as long as he exposes Cena for what he really is. All he has to do is push Cena into doing something reprehensible to win the match and he'll earn a moral victory. Maybe having his goons take out the referee before presenting Cena with a weapon while Bray does his pose on his knees welcoming the beat-down. Of course Cena isn't exactly above such things anyway so to his fans it's just another Cena win. Pretty much. Beating on JBL and Batista after they already quit and putting the latter in a wheelchair off of it, mauling Swagger for taking advantage of a golden opportunity to win the US title, cashing in Rematch in the Bank to screw Mysterio out of the WWE title, torturing Laurinaitis and Cole both for them just talking mean about him... Cena already has a long history of being a complete asshole. |
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Mar 27, 2014 6:24:14 GMT -5
I think the only way Bray wins in defeat is if he forces Cena to abandon his morals and principles to do something dastardly and almost homicidal to stop him. The feud should be more about Bray corrupting Cena by tapping into his primal instincts and rage (and thus frightening his impressionable fanbase) than winning the match.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Mar 27, 2014 8:22:54 GMT -5
The only way for Bray to look good in defeat is for them to write Cena as acting like literally anybody but Cena.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 9:38:59 GMT -5
It's all in the way it's done, like most pro wrestling wins/losses. I don't agree that if Cena wins with the AA and grins about it that Bray wins in defeat. But, Cena winning doesn't automatically undo Bray's heat or anything. Either way it should be sold that Cena is fighting something the likes of which he's never seen.
I think Wyatt going over in their first match sets the tone much better though. Cena getting the win back later hurts Bray less. I'm thinking of this feud in Mankind/Undertaker terms, and Taker lost clean to Mankind in their first encounter. I don't think Foley ever beat him clean again, but that win legitimized him immediately. Bray's got the win against Bryan, but after all the upheaval and craziness of that Rumble I think that's been lost in the sauce.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Mar 29, 2014 9:19:53 GMT -5
I'd rather Bray lose even in victory. Have the Wyatt's threaten a kid unless Cena gives up and Bray is just so eager for Cena to show what a hypocrite he is, what a liar, but then Cena gives up. And his face just falls.
From there Bray buys into Cena's gimmick. But declares that means Cena is to good for this sinful Earth and has to be put down. And they can do that bit for others too.
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