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Post by hossfan on Apr 19, 2014 20:07:57 GMT -5
Wasn't Bray's schtick going into Wrestlemania that he didn't want to pin Cena, he wanted to destroy his goody goody legacy? If so, losing shouldn't matter, since its clear Wyatt is still getting under John's skin.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 19, 2014 20:11:11 GMT -5
Given how he got completely steamrolled the next night, he still probably feels he has something to prove still. Besides, are we supposed to imagine he can get savagely destroyed for weeks, and one win's going to satisfy him? That's not realistic booking, either. I don't have a problem with the outcome of the match. Bray's still over as he ever was, really, and his gimmick isn't one where being undefeated added or subtracted from his mystique. It's not like Brock or Goldberg or someone whose first loss was this huge deal. I would argue that his matches with The Rock prove that one win is enough for Cena. When Cena loses to The Rock, it becomes "I can't sleep, I can't eat, my life is in shambles". Then he wins at Mania and it's all jokes and blowing off any thoughts of another match because, "Don't care, won the match". Bray is still over and he's really become the gimmick. That's huge. My problem is not that the loss to Cena (and I mean the cage match or the "blow off match" that will follow it) will kill his gimmick, but that it will take away some of the natural momentum he has. They basically set up the cage match to have him win over Cena, probably, but outside of Cena, who is available for him to feud with that's worth his time? Bryan will likely defend the title against him at some point, but he's occupied, the Shield wouldn't be new territory for him so soon, and most any other face is a step backwards right now. Honestly? It's probably Cena or Big Show, and I dunno about you, but I am fine with them milking this Cena thing a little while longer if it can spare us the mess that the Big Show feud would/will be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 20:11:37 GMT -5
There were really three ways that the match at Mania could have gone down and worked.
1. Cena crosses the line and just kills Bray entirely, therefore effectively proving him right. 2. Cena hesitates and decides to do the right thing, but this creates an opening Bray uses to steal the win. 3. Cena plays it straight and puts Bray in the STF, but he passes out rather than tap out.
Any of those three would have worked fine, and the last two really would pretty much be able to come to where we are right now with nothing really changed (other than possibly dropping that terrible Photoshop segment for that second one), but all three would have been much better than, "Cena decides seriously injuring people is fine so long as it's Rowan and Harper, gets blindsided, then shrugs it off and hits the AA to win anyway."
Also... Cena had a solid Mania match with a good story being told in it, that fell apart at the end when he Superman-ed up and swatted Bray like a fly, then the next night the crowd hated him to the point of being willing to pop for a midcarder nobody cares about over him (I'm talking about Big E, before anyone asks) then the week after that he responds by coming out smiling and joking before suddenly turning super-serious for no reason. That is Cena's legacy.
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JTH
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Post by JTH on Apr 19, 2014 20:12:26 GMT -5
Yes. And if Cena really had to win then Bray should've passed out in the STF. A lot of us thought this is what they should have done. But I thought it would have been epic if Bray looked like he was going to tap, tapped the mat twice and then stopped, and while he was still in the STF start playing the conductor, playing to the crowd before he passed out.
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Chip
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Post by Chip on Apr 19, 2014 20:14:07 GMT -5
No. Winning the match was not Bray's goal going in, winning or losing was irrelevant to him. He wanted to expose Cena as the monster he believes him to be, destroying Cena's legacy by doing so and on the grandest stage of them all no less. There was no reason for Bray to even go for a pin as it would prematurely end his one objective. There was only two endings to the match going in, Cena becomes a monster to beat Bray or Cena retains his humanity and wins, sure there's the third option of Cena becoming the monster but there was no way they were ever going to do that.
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Post by angryfan on Apr 19, 2014 20:15:53 GMT -5
Wasn't Bray's schtick going into Wrestlemania that he didn't want to pin Cena, he wanted to destroy his goody goody legacy? If so, losing shouldn't matter, since its clear Wyatt is still getting under John's skin. "losing" in that sense, wouldn't have, but since he lost clean with no interference and the ref was able to Jimminny Cricket the finish, Bray failed to "make Cena a monster" so he lost in his goal. Here's how I see it. Bray wins the match clean - We can have obsessed Cena, where he tries to "match" Bray in the next match, which win or lose, Bray says is a victory, the blowoff (if Cena MUST stay babyface at all cost) is where Cena "remembers who he is" and we get a big meaningful moment that serves the same purpose as "this isn't who you are, John". Bray loses by passing out to the STF - Bray can claim the joy of the moment, and just torment Cena with it. This drives the need for the next match in the feud, and furthers Cena questioning himself. Character progression for both, and a longer feud. Bray wins via DQ - Bray "wins" and Cena demands another match to "get his humanity back" or whatever. Feud can stay hot. Bray wins via Countout due to interference from Harper/Rowan without the ref seeing it - Here's the perfect setup for the cage match. Bray loses via DQ - Next match makes sense, and "srs promo" makes sense. Bray loses via countout when Harper and Rowan pull him out - Cena goes off, calls Bray a coward and whatnot, angry serious promo voice. Bray starts laughing and says, "THere's who I wanted to see" and they make the cage match. Literally any finish other than "Cena pins Wyatt clean" would have worked better for the storyline.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 20:18:13 GMT -5
Wasn't Bray's schtick going into Wrestlemania that he didn't want to pin Cena, he wanted to destroy his goody goody legacy? If so, losing shouldn't matter, since its clear Wyatt is still getting under John's skin. "losing" in that sense, wouldn't have, but since he lost clean with no interference and the ref was able to Jimminny Cricket the finish, Bray failed to "make Cena a monster" so he lost in his goal. Here's how I see it. Bray wins the match clean - We can have obsessed Cena, where he tries to "match" Bray in the next match, which win or lose, Bray says is a victory, the blowoff (if Cena MUST stay babyface at all cost) is where Cena "remembers who he is" and we get a big meaningful moment that serves the same purpose as "this isn't who you are, John". Bray loses by passing out to the STF - Bray can claim the joy of the moment, and just torment Cena with it. This drives the need for the next match in the feud, and furthers Cena questioning himself. Character progression for both, and a longer feud. Bray wins via DQ - Bray "wins" and Cena demands another match to "get his humanity back" or whatever. Feud can stay hot. Bray wins via Countout due to interference from Harper/Rowan without the ref seeing it - Here's the perfect setup for the cage match. Bray loses via DQ - Next match makes sense, and "srs promo" makes sense. Bray loses via countout when Harper and Rowan pull him out - Cena goes off, calls Bray a coward and whatnot, angry serious promo voice. Bray starts laughing and says, "THere's who I wanted to see" and they make the cage match. Literally any finish other than "Cena pins Wyatt clean" would have worked better for the storyline. And even the, "Cena pins him clean," thing could have been done better, by having it as a fluke or something that Cena's immediately unsure about instead of being pretty much as decisive as it possibly could have been with him jumping up and down for joy afterward.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 19, 2014 20:18:44 GMT -5
Have to see where the final result of the feud goes.
Potentially yes it was, especially depending on what happens next.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 20:20:44 GMT -5
Am I the only who thinks the whole "bringing out the monster in Cena" is stupid? Not that they're doing it, but the WAY they're doing it. Cena's done a lot of shit to a lot of people. he's gone berserk before. You're telling me smacking Bray Wyatt, a huge scumbag who's brainwashed beloved workers, with a chair is gonna turn him to the dark side? (Not to mention his acting during the match was )
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Post by Gopher Mod on Apr 19, 2014 20:21:09 GMT -5
I don't think it is... yet. Unfortunately, this is one of those "hindsight is 20/20" moments. While we can look back at the immediate past (the lead up to Mania, that match, and the two weeks we've had since) and say that this was a mistake, we still need to look forward to the next few months (if they build it well) of storyline progression before we jump to a conclusion.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 19, 2014 20:21:26 GMT -5
Have to see where the final result of the feud goes. Potentially yes it was, especially depending on what happens next. Cena basically has a neon sign on his face that says "I AM GOING TO LOSE", but how he does will be the question. He either just, you know, loses, or he is coerced by Bray into savagely beating him, while Bray laughs at him for reducing him to that lever of barbarism, sort of the Se7en solution. Either way, we can probably still agree this is like Embrace the Hate done with competence.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Apr 19, 2014 20:25:19 GMT -5
Will Clash close this thread or just make a post about how it's ok for Cena to always win?
In all seriousness, I think a risky but cool dynamic would have been for Bray to never attempt a pin or submission in the match. Commentators would have to play it up and he'd have to sell not caring about a pin after hitting finishers, but I think it would have made the dumb clean finish work--planting a what if sort of doubt.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 20:25:56 GMT -5
I don't think him losing to Cena was a mistake, but more HOW they did it. All this built around Bray trying to bring out the monster in Cena, but at WM, the GRANDEST STAGE OF THEM ALL, they basically had a filler match in their feud. Cena could have went over the line while the ref was distracted and done something TOO aggressive and un-Cena-y that got him the win, even clean, but still in a way that showed Bray really got to him. So it'll be a Cena win, but one Bray can go on to say that HE helped Cena accomplish by bringing out the monster in him. They had Cena have his cake and eat it too. NO! I WON'T BECOME THE MONSTER YOU WANT ME TO BE! I'LL JUST WIN, WITH MY WRESTLING MANEUVER! He either should've done something crazy, or lost because he didn't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 20:26:26 GMT -5
The second they booked the match I rolled my eyes because I knew the crap they were going to try and pull. Bray was going to lose but they'd try to excuse it with "But he pushed Cena over the edge!"
As though he didn't threaten to beat JBL's head in with a piece of stage. As though he didn't slam Ryback through a car. As though he didn't threaten Batista with throwing him off a stage to quit, and then when he did quit did it anyway.
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Post by psychokiller on Apr 19, 2014 20:27:40 GMT -5
If Bray beats Cena at Extreme Rules than he should be fine.
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Post by The Man They Call Asher on Apr 19, 2014 20:29:37 GMT -5
I just woke up. I read the thread title as "In hindsight, was Bray losing to Cena at WM a milkshake?" :L
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 19, 2014 20:34:07 GMT -5
Have to see where the final result of the feud goes. Potentially yes it was, especially depending on what happens next. Cena basically has a neon sign on his face that says "I AM GOING TO LOSE", but how he does will be the question. He either just, you know, loses, or he is coerced by Bray into savagely beating him, while Bray laughs at him for reducing him to that lever of barbarism, sort of the Se7en solution. Either way, we can probably still agree this is like Embrace the Hate done with competence. One hopes that's the outcome at any rate.
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Ragnal
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Post by Ragnal on Apr 19, 2014 20:48:21 GMT -5
The second they booked the match I rolled my eyes because I knew the crap they were going to try and pull. Bray was going to lose but they'd try to excuse it with "But he pushed Cena over the edge!" As though he didn't threaten to beat JBL's head in with a piece of stage. As though he didn't slam Ryback through a car. As though he didn't threaten Batista with throwing him off a stage to quit, and then when he did quit did it anyway.I feel like Bray needs to make a promo about all the things Cena's done that already make him look like a bad guy. Like, Cena can be a smug asshole and claim Bray never made him into this "monster", but Bray brings up all these points from the past that show that while he didn't, Cena's been a monster all along. And then we wait and see John try to justify it all, with Bray shooting down everything as a lie.
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Post by hossfan on Apr 19, 2014 20:55:13 GMT -5
Am I the only who thinks the whole "bringing out the monster in Cena" is stupid? Not that they're doing it, but the WAY they're doing it. Cena's done a lot of shit to a lot of people. he's gone berserk before. You're telling me smacking Bray Wyatt, a huge scumbag who's brainwashed beloved workers, with a chair is gonna turn him to the dark side? (Not to mention his acting during the match was ) Bray's motivation is pretty dopey. But then, a lot of things about him are (and I say that as someone who generally likes him). Cena in the past has shown he is more than willing to embrace the Dark side of Cenation if the situation calls for it. Really, if Bray was able to goad him into whalloping him with the chair at their Wrestlemania match, how big a triumph is it really? "Ha! I got you disqualified, John! Your legacy is forever tainted!"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 21:02:22 GMT -5
Am I the only who thinks the whole "bringing out the monster in Cena" is stupid? Not that they're doing it, but the WAY they're doing it. Cena's done a lot of shit to a lot of people. he's gone berserk before. You're telling me smacking Bray Wyatt, a huge scumbag who's brainwashed beloved workers, with a chair is gonna turn him to the dark side? (Not to mention his acting during the match was ) Bray's motivation is pretty dopey. But then, a lot of things about him are (and I say that as someone who generally likes him). Cena in the past has shown he is more than willing to embrace the Dark side of Cenation if the situation calls for it. Really, if Bray was able to goad him into whalloping him with the chair at their Wrestlemania match, how big a triumph is it really? "Ha! I got you disqualified, John! Your legacy is forever tainted!" That was one thing that confused me at Mania. The bit where Cena started to crush his head with the steps - yeah, that felt like an appropriate, "Holy shit, Cena just killed a guy," thing. The idea of him hitting Bray with a chair being too far though, and hitting Rowan with it was fine, was just weird.
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