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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 22:55:49 GMT -5
Because he sucks on the mic and has bo personality? You're talking about Roman Reigns here right? He's really good at standing and looking handsome and saying one or two "cool" things like calling Kane Randys bitch, no better way to get someone cheers than having him curse - especially in this era. The problem is is that what you're describing is presence, Roman has a ton of that, whether it's due to consistent build, or because he knows how to play to a crowd and put himself across as a killer, it doesn't quite matter given people react to what he says consistently. Is he being overpushed? Eh, for one week where he was comedy Sheamus, I felt that, but since then he's been cheered well each and every time he's appeared. As we've seen with other people pushed in such a way (including guys like Alberto Del Rio/Sheamus etc) the performer has to make up for the 2d writing and simplicity/logic leaps of wrestling. Dolph Ziggler has never had that, speaking as a person who cheers for him endlessly everytime I've seen him wrestle live and parades his worth as a possible star, his character and style of promo/speaking is not quite suited to wrestling, and whilst being a solid upper midcarder is no shameful thing (Billy Gunn is one of the most underrated consistent performers ever in WWE to me and he occupied the same spot) if you lack the ability to always seem interesting then it can cause problems. This is where the strange thoughts have to come up: if Ziggler was given the spot Reigns is in right now due to his popularity (which I'm all for) would people start to sour on Ziggler the way people did with Sheamus? Smarmy face promos, poor quality punchline, and the inevitable inconsistent booking of every wrestler on the roster? Or would he evolve his character and ring style to be more than Some Arrogant Flubber? If the company are going to piss on him regardless, and he's still getting cheered, maybe he should just throw in new moves/sports/shout some stuff to fans and see what happens to give him back the personality he never seemed to possess. I know agents/the booking team don't want that but if he pisses them off bi-weekly anyway, who cares? Again, I'm a fan of the guy, but Reigns is gushing presence right now, Ziggler unfortunately is not. He's not changed his character in 5+ years. The last time he did that he was a male cheerleader!
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 8, 2014 23:16:36 GMT -5
You're talking about Roman Reigns here right? He's really good at standing and looking handsome and saying one or two "cool" things like calling Kane Randys bitch, no better way to get someone cheers than having him curse - especially in this era. The problem is is that what you're describing is presence, Roman has a ton of that, whether it's due to consistent build, or because he knows how to play to a crowd and put himself across as a killer, it doesn't quite matter given people react to what he says consistently. Is he being overpushed? Eh, for one week where he was comedy Sheamus, I felt that, but since then he's been cheered well each and every time he's appeared. As we've seen with other people pushed in such a way (including guys like Alberto Del Rio/Sheamus etc) the performer has to make up for the 2d writing and simplicity/logic leaps of wrestling. Dolph Ziggler has never had that, speaking as a person who cheers for him endlessly everytime I've seen him wrestle live and parades his worth as a possible star, his character and style of promo/speaking is not quite suited to wrestling, and whilst being a solid upper midcarder is no shameful thing (Billy Gunn is one of the most underrated consistent performers ever in WWE to me and he occupied the same spot) if you lack the ability to always seem interesting then it can cause problems. This is where the strange thoughts have to come up: if Ziggler was given the spot Reigns is in right now due to his popularity (which I'm all for) would people start to sour on Ziggler the way people did with Sheamus? Smarmy face promos, poor quality punchline, and the inevitable inconsistent booking of every wrestler on the roster? Or would he evolve his character and ring style to be more than Some Arrogant Flubber? If the company are going to piss on him regardless, and he's still getting cheered, maybe he should just throw in new moves/sports/shout some stuff to fans and see what happens to give him back the personality he never seemed to possess. I know agents/the booking team don't want that but if he pisses them off bi-weekly anyway, who cares? Again, I'm a fan of the guy, but Reigns is gushing presence right now, Ziggler unfortunately is not. He's not changed his character in 5+ years. The last time he did that he was a male cheerleader! The smarmy comedy face character actually fits for Ziggler.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:19:06 GMT -5
The problem is is that what you're describing is presence, Roman has a ton of that, whether it's due to consistent build, or because he knows how to play to a crowd and put himself across as a killer, it doesn't quite matter given people react to what he says consistently. Is he being overpushed? Eh, for one week where he was comedy Sheamus, I felt that, but since then he's been cheered well each and every time he's appeared. As we've seen with other people pushed in such a way (including guys like Alberto Del Rio/Sheamus etc) the performer has to make up for the 2d writing and simplicity/logic leaps of wrestling. Dolph Ziggler has never had that, speaking as a person who cheers for him endlessly everytime I've seen him wrestle live and parades his worth as a possible star, his character and style of promo/speaking is not quite suited to wrestling, and whilst being a solid upper midcarder is no shameful thing (Billy Gunn is one of the most underrated consistent performers ever in WWE to me and he occupied the same spot) if you lack the ability to always seem interesting then it can cause problems. This is where the strange thoughts have to come up: if Ziggler was given the spot Reigns is in right now due to his popularity (which I'm all for) would people start to sour on Ziggler the way people did with Sheamus? Smarmy face promos, poor quality punchline, and the inevitable inconsistent booking of every wrestler on the roster? Or would he evolve his character and ring style to be more than Some Arrogant Flubber? If the company are going to piss on him regardless, and he's still getting cheered, maybe he should just throw in new moves/sports/shout some stuff to fans and see what happens to give him back the personality he never seemed to possess. I know agents/the booking team don't want that but if he pisses them off bi-weekly anyway, who cares? Again, I'm a fan of the guy, but Reigns is gushing presence right now, Ziggler unfortunately is not. He's not changed his character in 5+ years. The last time he did that he was a male cheerleader! The smarmy comedy face character actually fits for Ziggler. I can get how it makes him stand out a little bit (same with his not usual WHAT space between promo lines), but I just remember him accidentally interrupting Hugh Jackman and other people mid-sentence in promos continually. I'm not sure if that's an intentional thing or just performance nerves but yeah, just one of those things which bothers me due to being told never to block characters off like that in performances unless it makes sense at the time etc.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 9, 2014 0:05:04 GMT -5
The problem is is that what you're describing is presence, Roman has a ton of that, whether it's due to consistent build, or because he knows how to play to a crowd and put himself across as a killer, it doesn't quite matter given people react to what he says consistently. Is he being overpushed? Eh, for one week where he was comedy Sheamus, I felt that, but since then he's been cheered well each and every time he's appeared. As we've seen with other people pushed in such a way (including guys like Alberto Del Rio/Sheamus etc) the performer has to make up for the 2d writing and simplicity/logic leaps of wrestling. Dolph Ziggler has never had that, speaking as a person who cheers for him endlessly everytime I've seen him wrestle live and parades his worth as a possible star, his character and style of promo/speaking is not quite suited to wrestling, and whilst being a solid upper midcarder is no shameful thing (Billy Gunn is one of the most underrated consistent performers ever in WWE to me and he occupied the same spot) if you lack the ability to always seem interesting then it can cause problems. This is where the strange thoughts have to come up: if Ziggler was given the spot Reigns is in right now due to his popularity (which I'm all for) would people start to sour on Ziggler the way people did with Sheamus? No, they wouldn't, because the PRESENCE that you reference is part of the reason why the Reigns push has been like watching them construct as big a backlash as they could. There's a common perception that it's people with PRESENCE who benefit from the unfair booking tendencies... like, say, Sheamus. The Aggressive Manly Grr Killer character is not the one people universally like. RZiggler proves it by being the opposite and still people keep cheering him despite him being booked like crap for years. The WWE completely thinks that you have to have Presence to be cheered, but he evidence keeps proving you don't. I don't know why you're acting like Presence is some meaningful thing, when at the very most it's just one of many paths to getting popular... and it's also really likely to backfire, because even the densest marks know about and deride the "Big Hoss getting pushed in the WWE" stereotype. Also, you seem to have a really optimistic view of how much power WWE performers have to change their characters. I know the WWE is a screwed-up place run by idiots, but I still don't think that "do the opposite of what your bosses want you to do" is a particularly sound strategy for getting ahead.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 9, 2014 3:28:48 GMT -5
Because Dolph is stale as shit. He is the exact same guy he's always been. He's like Kennedy only better in the ring and worse on the mic, because while he is remarkably consistent character wise face or heel, that means he's not evolved in forever. He is now a hell of a hand, and with only one world title he's likely to stay that way.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 9, 2014 3:38:01 GMT -5
Ziggler has a better "look" than Reigns. I like Dolph, but I disagree. He has a good look, but Roman's is outright great.
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 9, 2014 3:39:21 GMT -5
People say Reigns sucks on the mic. Ziggler ain't any better. And I like Ziggler. Zigglers app and WWE.com promo's have been amazing. When he uses his real emotion he's great, when he tries to be cool and funny, his promo's can be better. Did you know he will get laid later? Possibly by multiple women! Let him remind you like 42 times.
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Post by modestgenius on Jul 9, 2014 4:03:39 GMT -5
Dolph would be on Jericho level of promos now if they let him cut one more live more than three times a year.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jul 9, 2014 4:07:25 GMT -5
Zigglers app and WWE.com promo's have been amazing. When he uses his real emotion he's great, when he tries to be cool and funny, his promo's can be better. Did you know he will get laid later? Possibly by multiple women! Let him remind you like 42 times. That's better than not letting him talk at all.
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 9, 2014 4:24:05 GMT -5
Did you know he will get laid later? Possibly by multiple women! Let him remind you like 42 times. That's better than not letting him talk at all. I agree, actually. I like Ziggler, but I really wish he'd cool it with that kind of stuff sometimes, it makes it feel like he's trying too hard to look like a cool guy. Most of his promo stuff works fine for a heel, but it feels a bit forced for a face. He is over, and the company does seem to know it, given the time they gave him and Barrett and how damn good that match turned out, but even if you gave me the book, I wouldn't really be sure what to do with him right now. The whole "Show Off" act is just really hard to do without being obnoxious.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 9, 2014 6:16:58 GMT -5
Dolph would be on Jericho level of promos now if they let him cut one more live more than three times a year. I've got to balk at that one. He'd certainly be better, but he's never shown he would be as comfortable talking as a Jericho.
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Post by modestgenius on Jul 9, 2014 6:57:06 GMT -5
Dolph would be on Jericho level of promos now if they let him cut one more live more than three times a year. I've got to balk at that one. He'd certainly be better, but he's never shown he would be as comfortable talking as a Jericho. Well I beg to differ. I'm constantly seeing shining moments of glory overshadowed by mic-rust. Whenever they do give him the microphone he's over scripted. People can argue he uses several takes or something - but Dolph is consistently funny and entertaining and well spoken when he's on Fallout or any of the internet shows. Goes back to what Austin was talking about last week, you got let people be themselves. What was the actual last good Jericho promo that sticks in your mind? I don't remember anything really good since SRS Jericho. Dolph has been in WWE for almost 10 years and you can probably count his live promos that go over 5+ minutes on two hands. If anyone needs proof he's good on the stick when he's actually given something: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvh3Tq4T8Ps
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 7:14:13 GMT -5
The problem is is that what you're describing is presence, Roman has a ton of that, whether it's due to consistent build, or because he knows how to play to a crowd and put himself across as a killer, it doesn't quite matter given people react to what he says consistently. Is he being overpushed? Eh, for one week where he was comedy Sheamus, I felt that, but since then he's been cheered well each and every time he's appeared. As we've seen with other people pushed in such a way (including guys like Alberto Del Rio/Sheamus etc) the performer has to make up for the 2d writing and simplicity/logic leaps of wrestling. Dolph Ziggler has never had that, speaking as a person who cheers for him endlessly everytime I've seen him wrestle live and parades his worth as a possible star, his character and style of promo/speaking is not quite suited to wrestling, and whilst being a solid upper midcarder is no shameful thing (Billy Gunn is one of the most underrated consistent performers ever in WWE to me and he occupied the same spot) if you lack the ability to always seem interesting then it can cause problems. This is where the strange thoughts have to come up: if Ziggler was given the spot Reigns is in right now due to his popularity (which I'm all for) would people start to sour on Ziggler the way people did with Sheamus? No, they wouldn't, because the PRESENCE that you reference is part of the reason why the Reigns push has been like watching them construct as big a backlash as they could. There's a common perception that it's people with PRESENCE who benefit from the unfair booking tendencies... like, say, Sheamus. The Aggressive Manly Grr Killer character is not the one people universally like. RZiggler proves it by being the opposite and still people keep cheering him despite him being booked like crap for years. The WWE completely thinks that you have to have Presence to be cheered, but he evidence keeps proving you don't. I don't know why you're acting like Presence is some meaningful thing, when at the very most it's just one of many paths to getting popular... and it's also really likely to backfire, because even the densest marks know about and deride the "Big Hoss getting pushed in the WWE" stereotype. Also, you seem to have a really optimistic view of how much power WWE performers have to change their characters. I know the WWE is a screwed-up place run by idiots, but I still don't think that "do the opposite of what your bosses want you to do" is a particularly sound strategy for getting ahead. I don't know why you keep capitalizing presence but yes, you make several good points, but I do think Reigns has the presence to pull off most of the things he's asked the last few weeks, most peoples worries have been 'what about this in future' which haven't happened yet after that awful comedy week he had. And as I said I have criticized the WWE for that already, which seems like an anomaly now in actions the character has taken, the commentary need to stop going down on him verbally though. Oh I know, no one character is the only route to the top of the mountain (or one of the sides of said mountain, supporting cast is valuable), it's just my personal bias opinion that Ziggler needs to change it up as he's just Flubber Underdog right now, and by not doing so/being allowed to despite being cheered (I'm a fan of the guy who cheers him over Reigns at live shows etc) I don't think he's ever been able to make fans turn against the product a way a CM Punk or a Daniel Bryan (or even a Matt Hardy if we take into account backstage drama) has when fans believed they were treated craply. Fans don't seem to be frustrated enough with a lack of his push the way they have been with other guys, in that regard it sort of reminds me of Zack Ryder. He wasn't given a fair shot, but as soon as he was put on TV for a while, despite people still cheering him massively, people stopped cheering over other segments to tell people they wanted him out there etc. Add in the injury issues he's had (not his fault) and I can sort of see why he's not around too much. He's a little bit unselfish in making everyone look good with his ludicrous bumps, I know he's cut down on that significantly since his return but still. Also true, but as people like Madison on here have said, if the wrestlers don't put ideas forward or wholesale do them in the ring if people constantly shoot things down then they're always trapped, and I know how hard that is given it puts you at risk of losing your job. Ziggler sells enough merchandise to always be on shows, he's got a safety net other wrestlers don't have in that regard. Plus if you listen to pretty much any wrestler over the last few years (easy throw out is CM Punk) you have to be the one to constantly push forward ideas or you're left in Kofi Kingston land. Right now, I think Reigns is in a great spot but they NEED to stop the horrible presentation junk on commentary, and Ziggler, if he's okay health wise then he/the company need to work harder to establish him as something more than he has always been to make fan reactions to him even stronger.
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the2ndevil
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Post by the2ndevil on Jul 9, 2014 7:19:48 GMT -5
The one thing that comes to mind with Dolph is when he shouted "Follow That!" Into the mic following an extremely subpar match with Evan Bourne.
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Post by audiencewatching on Jul 9, 2014 8:26:06 GMT -5
...because Zigglers one concussion away from retirement unfortunately
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Post by Abdullah on Jul 9, 2014 10:25:18 GMT -5
Reigns is probably more over. And I freakin' love Dolph. This is pretty meaningless. Uh, yeah, the guy they've booked to look better than the entire rest of the roster looks good; I'm in shock. The impressive thing about Ziggler is that people want to cheer him DESPITE how he's been booked, so imagine if he was being booked WELL. The guy is in my signature, so if there's an argument as to why he should be pushed I've probably made it. In relation to what the OP was saying, it's not meaningless. I could his post to mean that Ziggler in his current state of jobbing to Del Rio should be pushed over Reigns. That's specifically what I was responding to and dismissing. It wouldn't be a smart decision. The right idea is to work on Ziggler's character and push both, perhaps to see who resonates more. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 9, 2014 11:51:11 GMT -5
...because Zigglers one concussion away from retirement unfortunately Love WWE's logic. "We won't push you, because you could maybe get seriously injured, but hey, we can still have you lose to every guy way less over in the meantime spectacularly, for which you can kill yourself for, before you inevitably get injured and become useless to us anyway. I guess what we're saying is, feel free to get another concussion on our watch, but don't expect any progression or promotion from us in the meantime. Oh, and could you make these guys look good on the way out? We hope with enough wins off your bumps that they can one day be as over as you are so we can push them."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 12:03:30 GMT -5
Ehhhh.... I like Dolph Ziggler and I agree he's got to tweak something, but...
I always thought Kofi Kingston was better at nearly everything Dolph can do, as much as he's become a punchline lately, and that's all I got to say about that.
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riseofsetian1981
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jul 9, 2014 18:36:57 GMT -5
People say Reigns sucks on the mic. Ziggler ain't any better. And I like Ziggler. Ziggler I am sure can cut a good promo if they just let him showcase his real personality and actually have him be a smartass cocky babyface.
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Post by benstudd on Jul 10, 2014 4:49:29 GMT -5
Everytime I'm like "you know, maybe Ziggler sucks and WWE is right, he doesn't deserve to be pushed". And then I watch him wrestle and dammit this is guy is pretty damn good. The guy has fire for ten wrestlers and he keeps being over. He could be like Flair in his younger days if pushed properly.
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