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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 18:16:30 GMT -5
It's up to the booker of a promotion to create logical feuds and tell stories, with some twists and turns along the way. There comes a time when it's necessary (for good storyline progression) that a particular wrestler lose a match to their rival. To refuse to do it screws up the booker's plans, and could ultimately result in a story that doesn't make sense. I equate this with an actor accepting a high paying role in a movie, refusing to do what's in the script, and telling the writer he has to change the movie's story. You think that they don't? Lead actors have their personal writers who rewrite their dialogue for their scenes. I don't agree with it and I think that the booker/writer should have final decision at the end of the day, just taking in suggestions, but that's not the way it is. If a studio wants someone like Tom Cruise, Adam Sandler, Will Smith, Seth Rogen in their movie they'll allow their personal writers to come in and completely dick with the script. In the end we end up seeing Will Smith playing Will Smith or Adam Sandler playing Adam Sandler in every f**king movie but that's the way shit works.
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Post by jason1980s on Jul 12, 2014 18:28:19 GMT -5
If he hadn't done They Live, he probably wouldn't be doing the monster conventions. He probably does more sci-fi autograph signing appearances than he does wrestling related.
If he had stayed after WrestleMania, I can see a few guys not being used or brought back. Dog, Duggan, Patera and Steamboat may not have been brought back at their various times, Orndorff may not have turned face, Bigelow would still come in with hype but it would probably fizzle even quicker than it had. Piper was a top guy and very few people could, or can still, get near him in terms of importance or popularity.
Macho would be the only change staying the same. He was so superior as an athlete and promo guy to so many, that fans would take to him and he would have to turn. The Honkytonk Man angle only made it happen with a storyline.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 23:26:27 GMT -5
It's up to the booker of a promotion to create logical feuds and tell stories, with some twists and turns along the way. There comes a time when it's necessary (for good storyline progression) that a particular wrestler lose a match to their rival. To refuse to do it screws up the booker's plans, and could ultimately result in a story that doesn't make sense. I equate this with an actor accepting a high paying role in a movie, refusing to do what's in the script, and telling the writer he has to change the movie's story. No, because typically an actor reads the script and then decides whether or not to take the role. He doesn't just walk up to a studio like "Hey, how about hiring me to make some movies?" Why should wrestling be any different? The booker may come up with those storylines, but it's the performer that has the most on the line, because he has to either sell it or face the consequences if it damages his marketability. There is a balance that must be found there. If Vince were solely responsible for bringing in the cash and making his talent rich it would be different, but the talent is equally responsible for the profitability of the company, thus they have every right to say they don't like something. Vince then has the choice of either listening to that performer or letting them go and finding someone who will just do what he says, but will his new yes-man bring in as much dough as the guy he just released? Wrestlers aren't 9 to 5 factory workers who should just do their job and collect their pay check. Wrestlers are the guys who built the factory.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 13, 2014 0:25:45 GMT -5
It always amazes me to hear the kind of stuff Vince McMahon actually let these guys get away with in the 80s & 90s. Like refusing to lose matches. Piper, Honky Tonk Man, etc. It wasn't written into their contracts that they had "creative control" like Bret Hart later on (which was equally stupid to allow). These guys wouldn't be making big money or be featured WWF stars if McMahon didn't give them jobs and decide to put them on TV. That any of them could say "I'm not going to lose a fake fight when the guy signing my checks tells me the story calls for my character to lose" is ridiculous. The difference is, back then they had somewhere to go. Piper and HTM would have been top guys in the NWA if they bolted, and when Bret got creative control, he would have just bolted sooner if he hadn't. It has always been that way. Always. There was a decent-sized list of wrestlers Vince wanted Backlund to lose to, but Bob refused to job to any of them and would only agree to lose to a fellow former amateur wrestler, the Iron Sheik. Lou Thesz made a career out of dictating when and who he lost to, as did Brody and Abby. Here's the thing: Wrestlers are not shy people, generally speaking. The business calls for the kind of confidence that, even when you aren't all that great, you still carry a very high level of self-worth. Unearned or not, it's there, and wrestlers on a lot of levels will call a promoter or booker's bluff if they think they have enough worth to that promoter to pull it off. On the HTM mention, as an aside: There's no chance in hell he would have lasted in Crockett-land. Dusty wouldn't have tolerated him. Whatever Vince saw in HTM, it wasn't fear of him going to the competition (and let's face it, the notion of HTM holding the belt hostage is somewhat illogical. Unless he was planning on wearing it during his matches, it would have mysteriously made its way to the back while he was preoccupied during his first match after demanding such an ultimatum).
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Jul 13, 2014 1:30:07 GMT -5
The difference is, back then they had somewhere to go. Piper and HTM would have been top guys in the NWA if they bolted, and when Bret got creative control, he would have just bolted sooner if he hadn't. It has always been that way. Always. There was a decent-sized list of wrestlers Vince wanted Backlund to lose to, but Bob refused to job to any of them and would only agree to lose to a fellow former amateur wrestler, the Iron Sheik. Lou Thesz made a career out of dictating when and who he lost to, as did Brody and Abby. Here's the thing: Wrestlers are not shy people, generally speaking. The business calls for the kind of confidence that, even when you aren't all that great, you still carry a very high level of self-worth. Unearned or not, it's there, and wrestlers on a lot of levels will call a promoter or booker's bluff if they think they have enough worth to that promoter to pull it off. On the HTM mention, as an aside: There's no chance in hell he would have lasted in Crockett-land. Dusty wouldn't have tolerated him. Whatever Vince saw in HTM, it wasn't fear of him going to the competition (and let's face it, the notion of HTM holding the belt hostage is somewhat illogical. Unless he was planning on wearing it during his matches, it would have mysteriously made its way to the back while he was preoccupied during his first match after demanding such an ultimatum). On the HTM thing, the only story I've heard of him refusing to do a job was that he didn't want to have a shitty match or get the crap kicked out of him by Warrior, so he got squashed. I'm not saying there aren't any, that's the only one I'm familiar with. But I see your point with him going to Crockett.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jul 13, 2014 1:41:08 GMT -5
It has always been that way. Always. There was a decent-sized list of wrestlers Vince wanted Backlund to lose to, but Bob refused to job to any of them and would only agree to lose to a fellow former amateur wrestler, the Iron Sheik. Lou Thesz made a career out of dictating when and who he lost to, as did Brody and Abby. Here's the thing: Wrestlers are not shy people, generally speaking. The business calls for the kind of confidence that, even when you aren't all that great, you still carry a very high level of self-worth. Unearned or not, it's there, and wrestlers on a lot of levels will call a promoter or booker's bluff if they think they have enough worth to that promoter to pull it off. On the HTM mention, as an aside: There's no chance in hell he would have lasted in Crockett-land. Dusty wouldn't have tolerated him. Whatever Vince saw in HTM, it wasn't fear of him going to the competition (and let's face it, the notion of HTM holding the belt hostage is somewhat illogical. Unless he was planning on wearing it during his matches, it would have mysteriously made its way to the back while he was preoccupied during his first match after demanding such an ultimatum). On the HTM thing, the only story I've heard of him refusing to do a job was that he didn't want to have a shitty match or get the crap kicked out of him by Warrior, so he got squashed. I'm not saying there aren't any, that's the only one I'm familiar with. But I see your point with him going to Crockett. they're referring to the famous story of him refusing to drop the IC title to Savage during the live Main Event special and supposedly threatening to leave to go to Crockett.
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Jul 13, 2014 11:13:21 GMT -5
they're referring to the famous story of him refusing to drop the IC title to Savage during the live Main Event special and supposedly threatening to leave to go to Crockett. Oh wow I'd never heard that story. I remember DiBiase in one interview or another saying (and others as well) that he was supposed to get the title at Mania IV, but not the reason why he didn't. But on point, even if HTM wouldn't have lasted in Crockett, he thought he would have, and Vince must have too, or he would have called his bluff.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 13, 2014 18:57:47 GMT -5
Here's the problem with HTM's above statement - Wrestlemania IV, the culmination of Savage getting the main belt instead of DiBiase due to HTM pulling his shenanigans, occured on March 27, 1988. Turner wouldn't buy JCP until October 1988. Now, he *could* have just been generalizing and calling JCP "Turner"...BUT, for the year or so before Crockett sold off to Turner, Crockett didn't HAVE "a lot of money." His ill-advised purchase of UWF a year before and the dismal expansion turnouts in the north, coupled with disappointing forays into early PPV, kept Crockett from being able to afford much beyond his fancy private plane. Hell, they were still resorting to using Jack Victory three or four times on a show in various guises.
As for his logic about losing the title in front of that many people, let's keep in mind the guy they wanted him to lose to - Savage - had just lost the same belt in front of 90-whatever thousand at the Silverdome at Wrestlemania 3 in the most-watched PPV of its time and that didn't seem to phase him. Hogan had lost the big one on one of the biggest SNMEs ever and that didn't destroy him.
Sorry. It doesn't wash, at least to me. Vince caved in for guys like Warrior, Hogan, Hart and Michaels, not someone like HTM. He sure as hell didn't cave for Wendi Richter and got the belt away from her in very Vince fashion the nanosecond she started making noise, and Wendi had a much higher status at a more critical time. He didn't cave for Ricky Steamboat, either.
Maybe HTM really believes this. Maybe he's even been led to believe its truth. But there's no way at all it was what was really happening, whether he's aware of it or not.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jul 13, 2014 22:50:39 GMT -5
Finally found a Meltzer blurb on the situation from February 22, 1988
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andrew8798
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Post by andrew8798 on Jul 13, 2014 23:02:15 GMT -5
HTM also said he didn't mind dropping the belt. the problem came with Vince and Pat wouldn't tell him what the plans for him were after that show.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 13, 2014 23:40:31 GMT -5
HTM also said he didn't mind dropping the belt. the problem came with Vince and Pat wouldn't tell him what the plans for him were after that show. That's where I could believe Honky had an issue; Savage lost at WM3, but from the word "Go" in his WWF run Randy Savage was booked to be a high card player and possible WWF Champion. Dropping the IC title, especially in such a competitive, now-legendary match like he had with Steamboat, would simply set him up for a run toward the main event. If Honky wasn't getting any sort of notion about where he was headed following his IC title run, or if the original finish to him vs. Randy at the NBC special involved him essentially getting squashed, I can comprehend his issue. That said, I'm not sure any of us know for sure what all the details shared backstage would've been in that situation.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jul 14, 2014 3:09:37 GMT -5
It's up to the booker of a promotion to create logical feuds and tell stories, with some twists and turns along the way. There comes a time when it's necessary (for good storyline progression) that a particular wrestler lose a match to their rival. To refuse to do it screws up the booker's plans, and could ultimately result in a story that doesn't make sense. I equate this with an actor accepting a high paying role in a movie, refusing to do what's in the script, and telling the writer he has to change the movie's story. It's not quite the same thing, though. James Franco's marketability would not be hurt by playing the villain in a popcorn movie where he bites it in the end. Ric Flair on his DVD told a story that when he returned to WCW in 1993 after his stint in the WWF, Ole Anderson, who was the booker at the time in WCW, flat out told Flair "I can't do anything with you. Especially since the entire country saw you lose to Curt Hennig".
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 14, 2014 7:00:08 GMT -5
It's up to the booker of a promotion to create logical feuds and tell stories, with some twists and turns along the way. There comes a time when it's necessary (for good storyline progression) that a particular wrestler lose a match to their rival. To refuse to do it screws up the booker's plans, and could ultimately result in a story that doesn't make sense. I equate this with an actor accepting a high paying role in a movie, refusing to do what's in the script, and telling the writer he has to change the movie's story. It's not quite the same thing, though. James Franco's marketability would not be hurt by playing the villain in a popcorn movie where he bites it in the end. Ric Flair on his DVD told a story that when he returned to WCW in 1993 after his stint in the WWF, Ole Anderson, who was the booker at the time in WCW, flat out told Flair "I can't do anything with you. Especially since the entire country saw you lose to Curt Hennig". Ole was kind of a shit booker, but certainly, that was just part of how things were at the time. Very strange with Flair, though. He's probably not exactly the hardest guy to come up with ideas for, with such an established character.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 8:45:17 GMT -5
It's not quite the same thing, though. James Franco's marketability would not be hurt by playing the villain in a popcorn movie where he bites it in the end. Ric Flair on his DVD told a story that when he returned to WCW in 1993 after his stint in the WWF, Ole Anderson, who was the booker at the time in WCW, flat out told Flair "I can't do anything with you. Especially since the entire country saw you lose to Curt Hennig". Ole was kind of a shit booker, but certainly, that was just part of how things were at the time. Very strange with Flair, though. He's probably not exactly the hardest guy to come up with ideas for, with such an established character. As a booker, Ole Anderson was a complete incompetent. His booking took the company in 1990 to depths it wouldn't see again until 1999. If anyone killed Flair, it was Ole with that Black Scorpion angle that made no sense and made everyone involved look ridiculous.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jul 15, 2014 12:19:51 GMT -5
Well, I didn't intend on passing comment on Ole as a booker (although fans of Ole's will defend his run as Georgia Championship Wrestling's booker) but merely presenting an anecdote that presents his dilemma. Namely, in his view, a guy like Ric Flair has no business losing to a guy like a Curt Hennig.
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